BeGreen said:
I'm a bit technically inept when it comes to the computer. I don't know how to post pictures. However, I can give the make and model. It's a Buck stove, no-catalytic, model 81. We bought it new from a very reputable dealer.
Wood Heater Experts-I Have a Question
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I'm a bit technically inept when it comes to the computer. I don't know how to post pictures. However, I can give the make and model. It's a Buck stove, no-catalytic, model 81. We bought it new from a very reputable dealer.
Now that you mention it, we had a mini kaboom the other night but no smoke came out of the stove. I don't remember if I had just closed it down or what but it sure got my attention. Had never done it before or since (yet).
OK I have a few questions......
What size is the s.s. liner that was put in when built?
What siaze is the outletr on the insert & the s.s. liner coming off the insert outlet?
I am taking a wild guess, but if the opriginal liner up the chimney is say 8" and the insert calls for 6". Is there a possibility the just ran the 6" up into the 8" without using an adapter? Kind of like a direct connect where the liner is only run up to the first flue tile area, or in this case maybe just inside the original liner? If its not sealed off, gas could build up and blow and come back out arounf where the two meet. A surround blowing off is NOT merely a small concern, ITS A HUGE CONCERN! Its obvious gases lit off, and came out around the outside of the insert. Thats the ONLY way the surround could blow off. Are you sure there was a block off plate installed just above where the liner comes out of the insert outlet? IMHO, something is open on that liner set up.
What size is the s.s. liner that was put in when built?
What siaze is the outletr on the insert & the s.s. liner coming off the insert outlet?
I am taking a wild guess, but if the opriginal liner up the chimney is say 8" and the insert calls for 6". Is there a possibility the just ran the 6" up into the 8" without using an adapter? Kind of like a direct connect where the liner is only run up to the first flue tile area, or in this case maybe just inside the original liner? If its not sealed off, gas could build up and blow and come back out arounf where the two meet. A surround blowing off is NOT merely a small concern, ITS A HUGE CONCERN! Its obvious gases lit off, and came out around the outside of the insert. Thats the ONLY way the surround could blow off. Are you sure there was a block off plate installed just above where the liner comes out of the insert outlet? IMHO, something is open on that liner set up.
elkimmeg said:
I agree, you def got a direct connect $250.00.
As far as the water container. the surround most likey knocked that off when it came off. The top panel of the surround prolly slapped it right off. Does the top panel for the surround have any dents, scratches, marks where it would have smacked the water container?
Country Lady said:
You can email me a picture via the forum's PM option if that works. I would have a neutral, third party look at the installation. We're all concerned for your well being and safety. Though my backfire surprised the heck out of me, the stove parts and stack held together well. Something seems to have allowed your stove to backfire more violently. This needs a trained eye. Are you able to do this? If not, have a good chimney sweep come by that can inspect the installation soon.
Just one last thing before I sign off this thread to the experts reread the thread and see if you notice anything else that wasn't already picked up...
And country lady what did that insulation that was blown out look like was it the regular houshold type, as I have a feeling that this is what the installer used as the block off plate, which is a whole other situation.
I've heard of those stainless liners in higher end homes where it's not a round liner but a liner that is rectangle simulating the clay liners, so it could be a case of a 6" pipe running into a "lined chimney" that is 8"x11". Which should still be lined the entire length with the proper stove pipe..
I hand it off to you guy's now.......... Thanks
And country lady what did that insulation that was blown out look like was it the regular houshold type, as I have a feeling that this is what the installer used as the block off plate, which is a whole other situation.
I've heard of those stainless liners in higher end homes where it's not a round liner but a liner that is rectangle simulating the clay liners, so it could be a case of a 6" pipe running into a "lined chimney" that is 8"x11". Which should still be lined the entire length with the proper stove pipe..
I hand it off to you guy's now.......... Thanks
There are no dents or scrathces on the top panel. When I said it "blew out", it did not blow across the room. The top was out only maybe 1/4 inch with some of the insulation sticking out over the top and the left side was about the same. The right side had no sign of anything happening.
GVa I did pick up the insulation issue and I was thinking exactly what you were they just stuffed common fiberglass insulation in there instead of a metal block off plate
I agree with stoveguy the explosion happened behind that suround.
Educated guess here the existing liner has a cross-sectional are to large to properly draft the stove smoke enters the larger area cools condensates and initates cresote build up It flakes offf or built off around the end of the direct connected pipe exit. It built up enough that it came in contact with the hot pipe and ignited the blast went the path of least resistance downward Isulation offers no resistance and blew off the suround pannel.
for years i warned of the potential, this could happen.
I would take BeGreen advice and stop using that stove till the cause is found and corrected.
Everbody here is trying to help you I need the info I asked
existing flue size fire place opening size remove that suround and confirm the existance of the metal block off plate and is the chimney l o located on an exterior wall
from there we can advise you the correct safe way that stove should be installed code compliant safe..
Unfortunately I know you trusted a professional to install it correctly I'm an nationally certified inspector if all " professionals" did everything right code compliant
I would be out a job. In the real world, I have inspected the exact instalLation as I guessing AT, DONE BY "PROFESIONALS"
I agree with stoveguy the explosion happened behind that suround.
Educated guess here the existing liner has a cross-sectional are to large to properly draft the stove smoke enters the larger area cools condensates and initates cresote build up It flakes offf or built off around the end of the direct connected pipe exit. It built up enough that it came in contact with the hot pipe and ignited the blast went the path of least resistance downward Isulation offers no resistance and blew off the suround pannel.
for years i warned of the potential, this could happen.
I would take BeGreen advice and stop using that stove till the cause is found and corrected.
Everbody here is trying to help you I need the info I asked
existing flue size fire place opening size remove that suround and confirm the existance of the metal block off plate and is the chimney l o located on an exterior wall
from there we can advise you the correct safe way that stove should be installed code compliant safe..
Unfortunately I know you trusted a professional to install it correctly I'm an nationally certified inspector if all " professionals" did everything right code compliant
I would be out a job. In the real world, I have inspected the exact instalLation as I guessing AT, DONE BY "PROFESIONALS"
IMHO, and i'm by no means an expert, this is more than just an operational problem of dampering down too quickly.
I think that if that were the case, with a proper installation and no compromised areas in the liner or connections, the ignition would have been contained to the liner and / or insert itself. Since the face plate and insulation were blown off, it must have ignited in the area around the insert or inside the flue (outside of the liner).
I can think of a few possibilities (many have been mentioned):
A full liner was not installed from the insert to the top of the existing chimney
The connection at the stove collar is not sealed properly
There is no block off plate at the damper, or it is not sealed properly
The liner may have been punctured somewhere (at or below the block off if one exists)
There is a leak from the insert itself into the fireplace
In any case, I would not feel comfortable burning until I had investigated further. Simply replacing the face plate doesn't sound like it will 'fix' whatever led to the problem.
Just a word on 'professional' installation. I learned a ton here before shopping for and purchasing my fireplace insert. The installation details and methods varied at each dealer I visited (all reputable and well established in the area). Not one included or thought a proper block off plate was necessary (let's not go there), some used regular fiberglass insulation 'jammed into' the damper, one did not see the need for a full liner, etc... My point is not to bash any dealers or imply that yours did an improper job of installing your insert. It is just to point out that a second or third opinion might be a good idea. We are all concerned with your safety number one.
I think that if that were the case, with a proper installation and no compromised areas in the liner or connections, the ignition would have been contained to the liner and / or insert itself. Since the face plate and insulation were blown off, it must have ignited in the area around the insert or inside the flue (outside of the liner).
I can think of a few possibilities (many have been mentioned):
A full liner was not installed from the insert to the top of the existing chimney
The connection at the stove collar is not sealed properly
There is no block off plate at the damper, or it is not sealed properly
The liner may have been punctured somewhere (at or below the block off if one exists)
There is a leak from the insert itself into the fireplace
In any case, I would not feel comfortable burning until I had investigated further. Simply replacing the face plate doesn't sound like it will 'fix' whatever led to the problem.
Just a word on 'professional' installation. I learned a ton here before shopping for and purchasing my fireplace insert. The installation details and methods varied at each dealer I visited (all reputable and well established in the area). Not one included or thought a proper block off plate was necessary (let's not go there), some used regular fiberglass insulation 'jammed into' the damper, one did not see the need for a full liner, etc... My point is not to bash any dealers or imply that yours did an improper job of installing your insert. It is just to point out that a second or third opinion might be a good idea. We are all concerned with your safety number one.
Let me see if I can gleam what exactly the installation was.
Hubby says that they installed a stainless steel liner when the chimney was built. Although I have never seen such a thing, it surely is possible - that being a stainless steel liner inside a masonry chimney structure.
Or, is is a prefab chimney AND fireplace? Meaning metal?
Let's assume that it is the rare first case - a masonry chimney which was installed with a stainless liner instead of flue tile. Now the guy comes along and installs a direct vent pipe up into it and stuffs some insulation (or nothing) around it. This would easily allow the problem mentioned to occur. As another posts clearly said the GASES HAD TO BE OUTSIDE OF THE PIPE for this to occur.
So the idea of the wood gas explosion is correct, but why was it so large and how could it blow the panels off? Because of a few factors...think of gasoline. When the vapors are mixed with lots of air is when they are most dangerous. So the smoke went up the Direct Connection, spilled into the larger pipe and then either headed up very slowly or some headed up and some headed down because the chimney was cold. Then it ignites - the pressure must go somewhere - it is easier for it to go out the front of the fireplace and since there is no metal block off at the damper (assumption), it could do this.
That's my story and I am sticking to it. The #1 solution is to make certain a tight fitting block off plate is installed in the upper part of the fireplace and that the pipe goes though this. In that case, smoke and gases will never be able to fill up that large fireplace chamber around the insert and ignite. #2, solution, of course, is to line the existing chimney all the way up to the top with the smaller flue size of the stove. Also, make certain the pipe - if possible - is screwed to the stove at the bottom.
Hubby says that they installed a stainless steel liner when the chimney was built. Although I have never seen such a thing, it surely is possible - that being a stainless steel liner inside a masonry chimney structure.
Or, is is a prefab chimney AND fireplace? Meaning metal?
Let's assume that it is the rare first case - a masonry chimney which was installed with a stainless liner instead of flue tile. Now the guy comes along and installs a direct vent pipe up into it and stuffs some insulation (or nothing) around it. This would easily allow the problem mentioned to occur. As another posts clearly said the GASES HAD TO BE OUTSIDE OF THE PIPE for this to occur.
So the idea of the wood gas explosion is correct, but why was it so large and how could it blow the panels off? Because of a few factors...think of gasoline. When the vapors are mixed with lots of air is when they are most dangerous. So the smoke went up the Direct Connection, spilled into the larger pipe and then either headed up very slowly or some headed up and some headed down because the chimney was cold. Then it ignites - the pressure must go somewhere - it is easier for it to go out the front of the fireplace and since there is no metal block off at the damper (assumption), it could do this.
That's my story and I am sticking to it. The #1 solution is to make certain a tight fitting block off plate is installed in the upper part of the fireplace and that the pipe goes though this. In that case, smoke and gases will never be able to fill up that large fireplace chamber around the insert and ignite. #2, solution, of course, is to line the existing chimney all the way up to the top with the smaller flue size of the stove. Also, make certain the pipe - if possible - is screwed to the stove at the bottom.
Welcome to the Hearth.com forum
I hope you will take this issue seriously and are not simply satisfied that you got some theories about what happened. Fact is, we cannot tell for sure what happened from here. But, it is very probable that your insert is not installed in the safest manner. It may take some time for you to grasp the terminology and understand the significance of the advice being shared. Please take the time to learn about the physics of what is happening. If you do you will end up with a safer wood stove experience.
I am a professional wood stove technican and we have a reputable dealership. However, I would be lying if I said we never make mistakes. I know the general idea among many consumers is that we, as retailers, should be perfectly trained and always understand all the issues and never make mistakes. We are not allowed to have a defect. Law suites will follow. I take a huge chance just admitting here in writing that we are not perfect and have made mistakes in the past.
One of those mistakes was that we believed it was acceptable to install wood burning inserts with "direct connect" liner systems. We corrected this mistake about ten years ago and now we refuse to install anything without a full and proper liner. Some of our fellow dealers still believe it is okay to install wood inserts with direct connect systems. We disagree. But they have codes and manufacturer's specifications on their side. Current codes still allow direct connect installs of wood inserts and most manufacturers show diagrams of these types of installations in their instruction manuals. If the codes and instructions are followed exactly and interpretted with understanding it is possible to have a relatively safe install. One of these interpretations has to do with a proper block off and a sealing of the fireplace and damper openings. Most installers (even if from a "reputable" shop) do not understand the physics involved and fail to install these mechanicals correctly. And it is VERY difficult to do so. If you've every had your head and shoulders jammed into a fireplace you will understand the difficulty.
If you paid $250 to install the stove I cannot imagine that you got anything but a marginally acceptable job satisfactory to the local authority having jurisdiction (the "code enforcement officer"). For what it's worth, ten years ago we were charging about $450 for labor only to install a direct connect. At current rates we would be charging over $700, for labor only. If we did direct connects now we would be well over the $1000 mark for installation including materials. There is no way a "professional" can afford to install a wood stove or insert at the rates you mentioned.
Did you have this install inspected by the code enforcement officer?
Did you ask your dealer, and installer, if you have a "direct connect" or a "full re-line"?
Will they agree to install a full liner if you ask them?
What are the chances that you can get a properly sealed block-off plate installed?
Wouldn't it be better to opt for the full re-line and eliminate the need for a sealed block-off, which may cost just as much anyway?
Once the full re-line is in place you only need to seal the surround panels (which by your description seems to be what was done to begin with).
Good luck,
Sean
I hope you will take this issue seriously and are not simply satisfied that you got some theories about what happened. Fact is, we cannot tell for sure what happened from here. But, it is very probable that your insert is not installed in the safest manner. It may take some time for you to grasp the terminology and understand the significance of the advice being shared. Please take the time to learn about the physics of what is happening. If you do you will end up with a safer wood stove experience.
I am a professional wood stove technican and we have a reputable dealership. However, I would be lying if I said we never make mistakes. I know the general idea among many consumers is that we, as retailers, should be perfectly trained and always understand all the issues and never make mistakes. We are not allowed to have a defect. Law suites will follow. I take a huge chance just admitting here in writing that we are not perfect and have made mistakes in the past.
One of those mistakes was that we believed it was acceptable to install wood burning inserts with "direct connect" liner systems. We corrected this mistake about ten years ago and now we refuse to install anything without a full and proper liner. Some of our fellow dealers still believe it is okay to install wood inserts with direct connect systems. We disagree. But they have codes and manufacturer's specifications on their side. Current codes still allow direct connect installs of wood inserts and most manufacturers show diagrams of these types of installations in their instruction manuals. If the codes and instructions are followed exactly and interpretted with understanding it is possible to have a relatively safe install. One of these interpretations has to do with a proper block off and a sealing of the fireplace and damper openings. Most installers (even if from a "reputable" shop) do not understand the physics involved and fail to install these mechanicals correctly. And it is VERY difficult to do so. If you've every had your head and shoulders jammed into a fireplace you will understand the difficulty.
If you paid $250 to install the stove I cannot imagine that you got anything but a marginally acceptable job satisfactory to the local authority having jurisdiction (the "code enforcement officer"). For what it's worth, ten years ago we were charging about $450 for labor only to install a direct connect. At current rates we would be charging over $700, for labor only. If we did direct connects now we would be well over the $1000 mark for installation including materials. There is no way a "professional" can afford to install a wood stove or insert at the rates you mentioned.
Did you have this install inspected by the code enforcement officer?
Did you ask your dealer, and installer, if you have a "direct connect" or a "full re-line"?
Will they agree to install a full liner if you ask them?
What are the chances that you can get a properly sealed block-off plate installed?
Wouldn't it be better to opt for the full re-line and eliminate the need for a sealed block-off, which may cost just as much anyway?
Once the full re-line is in place you only need to seal the surround panels (which by your description seems to be what was done to begin with).
Good luck,
Sean
Many thanks for all this good information. We plan to call the dealertomorrow morning to send someone to check things out and get some answers to some of your questions. At least now, we know some questions to ask. Also, here is a link I found that some of you might find helpful too. (broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/howhuff.htm)
A "couple of pieces" isn't much wood to sustain an overnight fire.
I think what happened is that little fire woke up a 'coon sleeping in your chimney. He busted out and made the mess.
I've seen it happen in an open firepace during a friendly neighboorhood meeting. No BS.
Aye,
Marty
I think what happened is that little fire woke up a 'coon sleeping in your chimney. He busted out and made the mess.
I've seen it happen in an open firepace during a friendly neighboorhood meeting. No BS.
Aye,
Marty
Country Lady said:
Based on you initial statement, you were asleep when the incident happened. Wouldn't that rule out, pre-mature damping? I'm with everyone else, get the specifics of the installation and the specs on the chimney and get back to the experts here.
Absent from all prior post is the fact it was never confirmed if it was permitted and inspected? forget calling the installers and dealers who half a*** it in the first place
Code wise without being permitted and inspected the stove has no right being installed period. What I would do, is arrange for the installers to meet the inspectors there and have them explain how they installed the stove without permitting and explain their half a** install that would be priceless. I know how it would go if I were the inspector, you the homeowner could not ask for better representation Ask them about the NFPA 211 Cross-sectional code how it is applied to your situation Ask them why a block off plate was not installed. Ask them to provide where common fiberglass insulation is listed as ample protection for the block off. PM me and I will e-mail you the actual code language.
This is not the type of situation that should be dismissed. I consider you lucky to be posting here now. I will not applogise for my strong tone ,your life and families is at stake, time to do things by the nunbers. Do not get BS
Code wise without being permitted and inspected the stove has no right being installed period. What I would do, is arrange for the installers to meet the inspectors there and have them explain how they installed the stove without permitting and explain their half a** install that would be priceless. I know how it would go if I were the inspector, you the homeowner could not ask for better representation Ask them about the NFPA 211 Cross-sectional code how it is applied to your situation Ask them why a block off plate was not installed. Ask them to provide where common fiberglass insulation is listed as ample protection for the block off. PM me and I will e-mail you the actual code language.
This is not the type of situation that should be dismissed. I consider you lucky to be posting here now. I will not applogise for my strong tone ,your life and families is at stake, time to do things by the nunbers. Do not get BS
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