Will My Current Baseboard Emitters Work Well With Gasifier and Storage?

[ewdudley]

house taking priority over storage has everything to do with design and nothing to do with pressurized vs. unpressurized.

Pressurized 'design' takes hot water from boiler and sends it to top of storage. Loads then draw from top of storage. If there is hot water to be had then loads will get it as soon as you please. With pressurized storage this 'design' is as simple as appreciating that hot water rises.

With non-pressurized it's a whole different ballgame, which has everything to do with the fundamental differences between the two types of storage.

 

[kopeck]

Pressurized 'design' takes hot water from boiler and sends it to top of storage. Loads then draw from top of storage. If there is hot water to be had then loads will get it as soon as you please. With pressurized storage this 'design' is as simple as appreciating that hot water rises.

With non-pressurized it's a whole different ballgame, which has everything to do with the fundamental differences between the two types of storage.

I don't want to turn this into another pressurized vs unpressurized debate but this is wrong.

I'm not sure why folks feel the need to fire shots all the time but it's getting tiring.

This thread is about baseboard, which works fine with storage no matter what faction you side with. I've been staying warm for three years now with my setup.

K

 

[Fred61]

I don't want to turn this into another pressurized vs unpressurized debate but this is wrong.

I'm not sure why folks feel the need to fire shots all the time but it's getting tiring.

This thread is about baseboard, which works fine with storage no matter what faction you side with. I've been staying warm for three years now with my setup.

K

Kopeck, I don't believe EW is firing shots at unpressurized.

Pressurized 'design' takes hot water from boiler and sends it to top of storage. Loads then draw from top of storage. If there is hot water to be had then loads will get it as soon as you please. With pressurized storage this 'design' is as simple as appreciating that hot water rises.

With non-pressurized it's a whole different ballgame, which has everything to do with the fundamental differences between the two types of storage.

EW I've come to respect your views on the physics of all things mechanical and otherwise but I would like you to explain so even I can understand the difference.

In my set-up I heat the tank and only draw from the tank. My pump launch temperature is about 182 and water is pumped through a flat plate to the top of the tank and obviously returns from the bottom. My distribution water enters the bottom of two parallel 100 foot coils and exits the top to the zones. The coil starts absorbing heat from the cooler storage water on the bottom of the tank and gets progressively hotter as it proceeds to the top and subsequently out to the zones. When the system is idle (ie, no heating, no zones calling) The storage water stratifies as it would in any tank. The only difference I see and experience is the ability of the coil to absorb the maximum temperature of the top of the tank which really only makes a difference when the storage temperature is down to levels that are marginal for the load.

 

[Gasifier]

It also can depend on your piping and pumps. My hot water goes from boiler to top of storage whenever pump above boiler is running because boiler is at or above 170° where that aquastat is set to turn said pump on. However, loads are drawing off the top of boiler (mostly) whenever boiler is above 170°. ( A "T" just before storage tank allows a second pump to siphon off boiler to tank supply to feed the primary loop.) The only time it is drawing off of top of storage only is when boiler has run out of wood and pump above boiler is now off. (IFC pump) Did that make sense ?

 

[Fred61]

Yep! But the scenario I'm addressing is only when loads are drawn from storage.

 

[kopeck]

Kopeck, I don't believe EW is firing shots at unpressurized.

Maybe not, but the idea that pressurized naturally lends it's self to house over storage priority simply isn't true.

The way my system is piped, and it's piped and a manner that could be used for both pressurized or unpressurized storage, the house will always pull hot water off the boiler over it getting sent to storage.

Now maybe EW is thinking more is a flat plate Garn/OWB/(one other popular gasser that I'm blanking on at the moment) type setup...actually I'm pretty sure he is, but that's some what limited to a few applications. Seems to me that the majority of the folks here run pressurized systems as is mine, but my storage isn't and uses a heat exchanger to keep the pressure in the system.

Sorry, I just did what I said I didn't want to do...

K

 

[flyingcow]

I may have kicked off the discussion between the two types of storage and how it delivers heat to the house.all I wanted to point out with My routine and how I use the boiler. But I also want to point out that while the wood boiler is running the house has priority over storage. there are various ways you can do un pressurized storage piping. I wanted to point out that my system plays well with baseboard because of a thermostatic valve. and yes the baseboard does pull a lot of btu,s out of storage after. boiler shut down.

 

[velvetfoot]

I found a commercial, 14" high, single element, 3/4" copper tube with 4.25" square aluminum fins. SlantFin MultiPak 90. I found a price of $415 for 8'! But check out the numbers:

 

[velvetfoot]

The next question is, though, assuming all the baseboard in the house is replaced with something like the Multi Pak 90 or Heating Edge, would there be anything left in the last section in each of the two series loops (one upstairs and one downstairs)?

I am assuming that they are series loops. I haven't looked yet because I'll have to take down fiberglass insulation, and I hate working with that. Each floor has a pump.

 

[91LMS]

velvet, one thing i considered too if you dont have room to add radiant is radiant panel emitters. they look decent if you have the wall space and utilize lower temps.

 

[jeffesonm]

Have you done a heat loss calculation? I would start there to understand what your demand is before you start replacing baseboards or adding emitters.

 

[velvetfoot]

Have you done a heat loss calculation? I would start there to understand what your demand is before you start replacing baseboards or adding emitters.

At some point I suppose I will do this. The current oil/baseboard system works well. I am looking for low supply temperature performance for storage use. However, all signs point to me not doing a damn thing until the gasifier and storage is installed.

 

[maple1]

At some point I suppose I will do this. The current oil/baseboard system works well. I am looking for low supply temperature performance for storage use. However, all signs point to me not doing a damn thing until the gasifier and storage is installed.

Good plan. Pencil pushing might give you an indication or a heads up, but you won't know for sure until you actually run it. You might come up with something that looks great on paper overall, but actual use might turn up a cool spot/area/room that you wouldn't otherwise see.

One thing I would really like to do is put a cast iron rad on the ends of three of my zones - which happens to be where our three bathrooms are. But I just haven't been able to sell cast iron rads to my other half for some reason....

 

[velvetfoot]

But I just haven't been able to sell cast iron rads to my other half for some reason....

I'd be lucky if I can get the commercial baseboard to fly.

On another note maple, before I do a bunch more reading, if I went with the high capacity baseboard, would it be likely that the rooms at the end of either loop will be cooler than before?

 

[maple1]

I'd be lucky if I can get the commercial baseboard to fly.

On another note maple, before I do a bunch more reading, if I went with the high capacity baseboard, would it be likely that the rooms at the end of either loop will be cooler?

Well, no matter what you have for an emitter, the water will be cooler by the time it gets to the end of the zone. Which makes it kind of hard to exactly predict those things - generally speaking, you could plan more baseboard per foot of wall toward the end of the zone, but that would come down to hit or miss for my abilities. That's one thing I like about my slant fin - I can shutter down rooms early in the zone, and open the end ones up - together with an Alpha pump & ball valve to slow zone flow down, zones can be tuned in fairly good. Not quite as good as each rad on it's own pipe, but not bad.

 

[velvetfoot]

On a side note, it seems that commercial 14" baseboard above requires another 4.25" over the floor, so I'll have to measure the outlets, but I'm not so sure about 18.25"...

 

[ewdudley]

I would like you to explain so even I can understand the difference

Above flyingcow was saying that a "thermostatic valve that will send heat directly form boiler to house, when needed, is the way to go" and I interjected that with any normal pressurized storage setup there doesn't need to be any special thermostatic valves or controls to get hot water from the boiler as soon as it is available. With pressurized storage hot water goes from boiler supply to top of storage. Then the load taps into the line going to the top of storage, or it taps in on the other side of a tee that goes into the top of storage, or it taps into another port on the top of storage elsewhere on the tank. In all cases the tank can be stone cold but there will be some hot water at the top of the tank available PDQ once the boiler comes on line. (This is, in fact, simply true.)

FWIW some non-pressurized storage systems don't necessarily share this convenience, not that it matters because you get all your heat back out with either type of storage. I was merely pointing out that with pressurized storage there is no need for extra components to "send heat directly from boiler to house", in order to perhaps prevent someone with pressurized storage from worrying about it, or spending for stuff that's not needed.

 

[Willman]

These units deserve a look. http://jaga-usa.com/

 

[velvetfoot]

I just recalled that I do believe I covered the heat distribution pipes with foam boards and sheetrock when I insulated the rim joists. I'll have a gander this weekend, but I'm pretty sure it's serial. Now to look for a way to do a heat loss study.