who here has had a chimney fire?

[Woody Stover]

Oh, sure, quite a few chimney fires here. Didn't have flames shooting out too often. I used to burn dead Red Oak that had only been split a few months. I was using uninsulated stove pipe as chimney, inside the masonry chimney. I tried to keep the creo at bay by burning hot for a while when starting a load, until I could hear the creo falling in the pipe, but that only went so far. When the draft dropped enough so that the stove smoked out the room when I opened the door, I figured it was time to clean the pipe...usually once or twice per season. The elbow would be half closed off and I would get gallons of creo flakes when I swept it. Once in a while, when I stumbled onto some wood that was a little drier than usual, I'd get more flame and had to be careful not to catch the creo on fire. When it did catch, I could usually snuff it pretty quick by cutting all the air on the pre-EPA stove. I can only remember one time when I had to wait a couple minutes for the fire to run its course. It's possible that the stovepipe 'chimney' was rusted through from the creo juice and getting its air from there instead of through the stove. The pipe would rust through every third year, and I'd have to pull it out and replace it. Sometimes when I would toss down like a 6' section of pipe from the roof, if it landed on its side it would flatten out. I eventually went to a stainless snap-together stovepipe 'chimney.' There was still just as much creo but at least I could control the air. After a while I got pretty good at burning controlled chimney fires to take out some of the creo. I could then reach up into the flue and remove the blockage from the 90 elbow on the back of the stove. It still built up in some turns further up, that weren't 90s, and would slow the draft some.
Then I got on here and found out that Red Oak can't be dried it two years, much less two months. I also found out that stove pipe and chimney were two different things. I guess I should have read my stove manuals more carefully. Miraculously, the clay liner survived in good shape as far as I can see....which isn't all that far without inspection equipment. I now have an insulated heavy-duty flex liner and dry wood so I think I'm OK.

If you have ever burned wood in your stove in a manner that you developed dark soot and creosote on your glass, then it is almost certain that soot and creosote has also formed in the upper chambers of your stove and flue.

I have a cat stove. Even though I get creo in the box and on the glass from burning low fires, very little gets deposited in the flue because the smoke never makes it through the combustor.

 

[tcassavaugh]

I remember as a kid living in rural n.y,, i remember one we had one in the fireplace. it was winter with snow on the ground. we heard the tell tale train and looked outside to the whole outside in this pretty amber glow....lol. the fire department showed up and got up top and put down a mix of baking soda and salt (I think). my brother has a short stack, probably about 12 feet total, with a metal roof on the house and he starts one every now and then when there is snow on the ground or its wet..... to get a "high pro glow" and considers that his method of cleaning. I don't think hes run a brush down it in years. I don't really subscribe to that method.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

chimney fires are NEVER a good thing. chimneys are built to "withstand" a flue fire full blown chimney fire (assuming they are built to code) which is a big assumption in a home which was bought with a flue already there.

the "teachable moment" in the thread is here; when you are in the market for a house and look at a home with a flue already built , make a point to have the flue inspected by a properly certified chimney professional as part of the closing. especially if the house is older (therefore the flue may be older) a level 2 inspection is required by the NFPA211 before installation or replacement of a solid fueled appliance anyway. get it done at closing if you want to burn wood. could save you a boatload of money later (shameless plug, this will be discussed in detail in my book).

now back to the thread (commercial over lol) when a chimney ignites the temperatures will rapidly reach up to 2K degrees F, and can exceed this if there is enough fuel and air to get there (leaky cleanout doors can supply unlimited air even if the stove is closed all the way off so closing the draft MAY NOT BE A DEFENSE!)

the temps which are created can and in a lot of cases will bring wood in close proximity to the flue to a dangerous temperature. most houses that are burned down due to a chimney fire die due to this transfer of heat.

short version folks, and im sure my fire fighting friends will back me on this. if you SUSPECT you have had a significant flue fire, get a professional out there soonest. never just assume the flue contained it and do not assume the flue was not damaged by it simply because the house is still there. the first flue fire could create a pathway for heat to get to the structure of the house in places you cannot see. then you are playing "Russian roulette" as the next flue fire could burn down your house.

the book im working on today is a direct result of reading articles and posts in forums about folks who have lost it all (home , family members, cherished pets, et al) due to incidents which involve woodstoves and fireplaces. banter about such incidents scare me, don't be casual about chimney fires, they happen for a reason,. be it bad practices or a structural failure, its not a thing to be taken lightly.

 

[bholler]

I agree with every point made there stove guy very well said I will buy your book for sure.

 

[tarzan]

Stoveguy, what do you see as the biggest contributors to flue fires and do you think the use of EPA approved stoves has lessened the amount of flue fires?

I think I know the answeres but was hoping you could provide some data

 

[mikey]

When I was a kid, we had a chimney fire on Christmas once (in a fireplace). My dad got a bit over enthusiastic with burning the leftover present wrapping.

My wife did the same thing on a long ago christmas, one of the many times she ignored me.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Stoveguy, what do you see as the biggest contributors to flue fires and do you think the use of EPA approved stoves has lessened the amount of flue fires?

I think I know the answeres but was hoping you could provide some data

well, yes they have , but they haven't eliminated them. the stove is a vessel, how its used means a lot as to what comes out of it , for instance , making spaghetti in a frying pan, cooking bacon in a saucepot.

even with an appliance when used properly a chimney fire would be one in a million, it all boils down to how its used.

any woodstove , whether its EPA or an old pot belly... can be the vessel connected to a flue which brings about a flue fire.

the biggest defense against a flue fire is EDUCATION. learning the art of wood burning as it is an art/ heck , you can buy a new car with all the bells and whistles (more than a model t right) but that doesn't mean you cant wreck right? you "drive" defensively, you pay attention to the signs and the other drivers and do all you can to make sure you don't make a mistake and cause an accident right?

its the same with wood burning , start with good equipment , maintain your equipment (change the oil (clean the flue)) get a knock, call a mechanic , see something odd with a woodstove call a sweep.

bottom line , educate yourself on this art, forget the "wives tales" and urban legends, learn the art of wood burning, you're in the right place , soak it up

 

[tarzan]

well, yes they have , but they haven't eliminated them. the stove is a vessel, how its used means a lot as to what comes out of it , for instance , making spaghetti in a frying pan, cooking bacon in a saucepot.

even with an appliance when used properly a chimney fire would be one in a million, it all boils down to how its used.

any woodstove , whether its EPA or an old pot belly... can be the vessel connected to a flue which brings about a flue fire.

the biggest defense against a flue fire is EDUCATION. learning the art of wood burning as it is an art/ heck , you can buy a new car with all the bells and whistles (more than a model t right) but that doesn't mean you cant wreck right? you "drive" defensively, you pay attention to the signs and the other drivers and do all you can to make sure you don't make a mistake and cause an accident right?

its the same with wood burning , start with good equipment , maintain your equipment (change the oil (clean the flue)) get a knock, call a mechanic , see something odd with a woodstove call a sweep.

bottom line , educate yourself on this art, forget the "wives tales" and urban legends, learn the art of wood burning, you're in the right place , soak it up

 

[tarzan]

Not trying to sound rude but I do have it down now after several years of trial and error. Not the way one should learn "the art" of wood burning. That's why I'm thankful for this site and hopeful your book can help wood burners everywhere!

The last few years with my non-catalytic stove and dry wood have been great. Sadly though, I'm waiting for the Doc to call and schedule my two level lumbar fusion so it seems my wood burning days are over.

The reason I posted this thread was do to recent threads I have read here and hoping that some of the newer burners could read it and realize that chimney fires are a reality and take some helpful tips on what "not to do" from it.

Also, thanks to everyone who replied!

 

[Lumber-Jack]

I had a good look at the CSIA web site and they have a page related to chimney fires. I could not find the chimney fire description bholler described on that page, but it does have good information. At the bottom of that page though, is a download link to a PDF file entitled Chimney fire white pages. It is on that "white paper" that I located the chimney fire definition that bholler cited.
This is a direct link to that white papers pdf. > (broken link removed to http://www.csia.org/external/wcpages/wcwebcontent/webcontentpage.aspx?contentid=588) < The definition can be found on the first page of chapter 2, page 34.

In the context of this paper, “chimney fire” refers
to the presence of actual combustion within some
part of a venting system. Although usually
applied mainly to the chimney flue, this usage
also includes combustion in chimney connectors
and thimbles and the smoke chambers of
fireplaces. Since venting systems by definition
are not intended to host actual combustion, a
chimney fire always represents an abnormal
operating condition.

However I have a problem with the definition because if the presence of combustion in any part of the flue (vent) is what defines a chimney fire, then it would mean that every time someone has nice rolling fire in their older stoves or newer re-burner tube stoves, they would inevitably have a chimney fire since this is a very common (almost unavoidable really), occurrence.
Below is a video of the old Lopi stove I have in my shop. It is pretty typical of older stoves that have no, or minimal, baffles. The video shows a small fire in the stove with un-burned smoke and combustion flames clearly seen entering the flue vent. My guess is that those flames extend a foot or more up the flue vent even with this small fire.

According to CSIA definition, this stove is actually experiencing a chimney fire.

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[oconnor]

Flame impingement us what I see in the video. Combustion in the flue would involve the fuel being in the flue. Flame is the product of combustion - glowing gas molecules that are excited by a chemical reaction. If the chemical reaction happens on the flue, then chimney fire.

That said, this definition stuff is a bit pedantic don't we think?

 

[Lumber-Jack]

That said, this definition stuff is a bit pedantic don't we think?

I don't think so. Understanding the proper definition of a chimney fire is important because it is a very serious safety issue. It is very important to understand exactly what a chimney fire is, and what it isn't, because there are steps you should take if you do think you have had a legitimate chimney fire.
The CSIA definition say "presence of actual combustion within some part of a venting system. The flames present in the flue (vent) mean that volatile un-burned gasses (fuel) are burning (combustion) on their way up the vent, plain and simple. If you are saying there is more to a chimney fire then that, then I agree with you. That is why I disagree with the definition.

 

[oconnor]

Flame in the flue doesn't mean a combustion reaction is occurring, it means the gas is hot enough to emit light. The combustion reaction is happening in the stove.

If the fuel source is in the flue, you have a chimney fire. Otherwise, it's a stove fire. It is the definition of combustion that is causing you the issue.

 

[oconnor]

That said, flame in the flue is not a good thing. A charcoal fire flame is between 650 and 1200C, and that flue gas temp is higher than what connector pipe can sustain.

 

[Macpolski]

I have a cat stove. Even though I get creo in the box and on the glass from burning low fires, very little gets deposited in the flue because the smoke never makes it through the combustor.

I love that last line!

 

[bholler]

This will be my last post on this issue because I am getting tired of restating the same thing over and over. I have cited the source for my definition which is a very well respected research and training organization. I still have seen no source for lumber jacks definition. I believe that the only way to validate ones point of view is to cite valid and reputable sources which I have done those that want to make up their own definitions that is up to them but don't try to pass it off as fact.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

Flame in the flue doesn't mean a combustion reaction is occurring, it means the gas is hot enough to emit light. The combustion reaction is happening in the stove.

If the fuel source is in the flue, you have a chimney fire. Otherwise, it's a stove fire. It is the definition of combustion that is causing you the issue.

Sorry, but that is incorrect. Those flames are un-burned gasses going up the flue while they are burning, they are not some sort of delayed after effect of combustion. There is obviously combustion going on in the stove as well (as witnessed by the flames), but there is a lot of un-burned gasses still going up the flue, and that is what you see burning.

 

[oconnor]

I'm out. Have fun.

 

[bholler]

And why is there no baffle in that stove anyway? if the baffle was n place there would not be flames going up the pipe.

 

[GeHmTS]

This is a direct link to that white papers pdf. > chimney fire white papers < The definition can be found on the first page of chapter 2, page 34.

Thank you. I love this paper, it's very technical.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

And why is there no baffle in that stove anyway? if the baffle was n place there would not be flames going up the pipe.

Actually there is a little baffle, it's can be seen near the back just above the wood. This is an older pre-EPA stove, and many of those old stoves had no baffles at all, they were just big open boxes.
Full size baffles, you see in modern EPA stoves, and the re-burner tubes help to burn up those un-burned fuels before they make it up the flue, but they are still not 100% efficient, and I have still seen flames, at times, penetrating up into the flue itself in my modern EPA stove in the house. Harder to see or get a video of though, because the baffle itself is kind of in the way.

Bholler, every other thing I have read from that CSIA web site you cited has great info and makes perfect sense. It's just this one definition of what a chimney fire is that I take issue with. And it's not just the combustion of un-burned gasses in the flue vent that I don't see a as being a chimney fire, but the fact that while that is happening any small amounts of creosote residue that might be on the lower parts of the flue itself would likely be getting burned (cooked?) off too. That too, in my mind, would also be normal and safe, and should not be defined as a "chimney fire". The only problem I see would be if you had so much creosote built up in there that when it burned off it started generating it's own heat and became self sustaining, leading to a full blown chimney fire. Actually that white paper .pdf on that site goes into some detail about how that might occur.

Don't worry, I'm done too.

 

[bholler]

I looked closer and saw the baffle now sorry but it is not doing much good though most I see are deeper than that even on the old stuff.

 

[Sinngetreu]

Never had one . . . well nix that . . . first year I was burning with my new stove I think I may have had a very small one . . . heard what sounded like rice krispies tinkling down the double wall stove pipe. No rushing locomotives or jet sounds. No flames. No cinders or sparks coming out of the top. Also, no damage . . . other than a bruised ego, but the lesson learned on the importance of burning at the proper temps was hammered home.

That said . . . I've been to many a chimney fire and the common themes typically involve one or more of the following:

a) Home owner is burning unseasoned wood or wood that they believe is seasoned . . . when it isn't.

b) Home owner is not burning the woodstove at the proper temp -- the stove is either being choked down so much that it is running too cool and making creosote and then is run too hot catching the creosote on fire.

c) Home owner has not cleaned the chimney and/or doesn't even remember the last time he even inspected the chimney

Seems like these chimney fires most often occur whenever I was a) sound asleep at 1 a.m., b) about to do something fun with friends, c) hanging out with my then fiance, d) dealing with a snowstorm, e) having to face my fear of heights by going up on a slick, ice/snow covered metal roof with a wicked pitch or f) all of the above.

Most of the time damage was minimal . . . or non-existent. Depended largely on:

a) how severe the fire was -- hot hot was the fire, how much creosote was plugging up the chimney, chimney design. By this I mean a very hot fire with loads of creosote as fuel could crack the clay liner . . . and a chimney without a liner or placed too close to combustible framing could result in the fire spreading to the house.

b) how "energetic", "enthusiastic" and "inexperienced" the firefighters and their response to the fire was. By this I mean I have seen one fire department that takes the tact that all fires should be put out quickly and the building should be saved without regarding the chimney or stove . . . and they have been known to just put a hose down the chimney and kill the fire quickly . . . and damage the chimney in the process. I have also seen firefighters who have had to deploy a heavy weighted chain to break through the thick layer of creosote and this can result in damage to the chimney.

Usually chimney fires seem to occur with the pre-EPA stoves . . . perhaps because I still see so many of them in use around here . . . or perhaps because they could have the air control dialed down to nothing.

FFJ, would you mind if my wife quoted and used your statements for a small town newspaper article on proper burning techniques?

 

[firefighterjake]

FFJ, would you mind if my wife quoted and used your statements for a small town newspaper article on proper burning techniques?

Quote away ... only deal is ... myself and many of us would truly love reading the article when it comes out.

 

[Excavator]

Had 2 of em back in my slammer Pre-epa days, the creosote would gather right above my smoke shelf and if I burned cardboard or pine really hot it would catch the creosote on fire. No damage was done other than having the fire department out here and me feeling like a heel the whole time with the neighbors all looking at the ladder trucks in my driveway.

I still can hear that whooshing sound in my brain, I don't think you forget that and the fire shooting out the chimney.

Shortly after the second one I found Hearth.com and was baptised in fire.

Same here with the old SLAMMER install. What were we thinking with that setup (LOL)
I can now sleep better and have much better control of the stove with ss liner and block off plate.
No more stock piles of creosote sitting up there ready to catch fire. I now have clean out T which does not get much in it like old days