Where You’ll Pay the Most in Electric Bills

[sportbikerider78]

I'm sorry you feel that people should not have a basic right to an education in order to pursue success in this world. And I still dont understand why the right needs to equate every disagreement with a gunfight. I fundamentally disagree but I'll put that aside.

So lets do some math. My school district publishes their budgets as do yours I am sure. The FY18 budget for my district is $33.2M, and they have 2,889 children enrolled K-12 starting next month. Using my calculator I get approx. $11,500 per child per year.

I'll be generous and assume my schools are more expensive, lets call yours $10k in round numbers.

That means that if you have even one child attending public school you are correct that your taxes are highway robbery. Of course its you dong the robbery against the other families in town subsidizing the other $5k of your child's education.

You can opt to home school to correct this injustice.

In your world I should probably be publicly stoned by my neighbors since Im getting $23,000 worth of schooling for my kids and only paid some % of my $6500 total tax bill for it.


We can go on and on, as the same logic applies to many other large societal costs that would be crushing to the bottom 95% if each individual had to pay for their exact share of usage - healthcare (better hope you dont get cancer), roads, national defense, etc.

Around here, $11.5k gets you a private school education, or very, very close to it.

Simple. I equate it to the town taking your property by force. Which they will, if you do not pay your school tax. It is not my opinion. It is something that would most certainly happen.

I completely agree with you. It isn't fair to ask your neighbors w/o kids or the elderly to finance my kids education. That is one of the many reasons they are not in a public school.

I don't think you should be stoned....I'd never say that. I just think you are using a system that many others use that has been presented as your only option. I think you (like me) should have much more say in where your kids are educated and what they are taught.

 

[sportbikerider78]

Thanks for the article. Looks like NY state is flat to increasing in population overall, and people are moving in NYC and revitalizing it. This seems counter to your 'high-tax, people move out' hypothesis. Doesn't NYC have a big city tax? Really expensive real estate? Sometimes problematic public schools? And yet people are moving there anyway...

So, I'm sorry that people are moving from your area....perhaps you need more or better jobs, or a more appealing civic life. It doesn't seem to me that racing to the bottom on your local public schools will do the trick.

Also: around here, some towns have property taxes like what you describe (and mostly broken out as school taxes), and some towns are a lot lower. Seems that people with kids move to the first kind, and people without kids tend to move to the second kind (where the schools are ok, just have fewer students). Maybe you should move a couple towns over??

I'm not sure how many other places you want me to reference.

Here's the same info from the NY Post. Hardly a conservative magazine.
http://nypost.com/2016/12/25/heres-why-new-york-is-shrinking/

"In just the year ending July 1, a full 191,367 residents fled for other states, notes the Empire Center in its annual report on “net domestic migration.” That was the largest exodus since 2007, bringing New York’s total outflow over the last six years to 846,669, more than any other state.
The latest Quinnipiac poll found that 39 percent of voters would leave New York if they could. Asked to name the most important problem now facing the state, 22 percent of voters say the economy, while 20 percent list taxes and 10 percent cite “politicians/political corruption.”"


Keep in mind, this is with a large influx of immigrant populations which usually go to the city.

 

[woodgeek]

I'm not sure how many other places you want me to reference.

Here's the same info from the NY Post. Hardly a conservative magazine.
http://nypost.com/2016/12/25/heres-why-new-york-is-shrinking/

"In just the year ending July 1, a full 191,367 residents fled for other states, notes the Empire Center in its annual report on “net domestic migration.” That was the largest exodus since 2007, bringing New York’s total outflow over the last six years to 846,669, more than any other state.
The latest Quinnipiac poll found that 39 percent of voters would leave New York if they could. Asked to name the most important problem now facing the state, 22 percent of voters say the economy, while 20 percent list taxes and 10 percent cite “politicians/political corruption.”"

Keep in mind, this is with a large influx of immigrant populations which usually go to the city.

OK, seems like cherry picking. People move between states in the US all the time, and some people immigrate into and out of the US entirely. It seems that the 191,000 people who left NYS were almost balanced by the influx of people who moved INTO NYS (who obviously have not read this thread). For one of the most populous states, this number doesn't seem very surprising (I'd want to see it per capita for all 50 states before deciding if NYS is an outlier), and I would still think a lot of it has to do with moving for a job, moving south when retiring to get to a warmer climate, etc....not necessarily the property taxes that are making you so upset. Especially since your taxes seem to be similar to the property taxes in my area, in a not so high tax state.

Can't I argue that Boomers are retiring, so there is a wave of people hitting retirement age....upstate gets a lot of snow and once retired, those folks are going to move to a place they don't need to shovel. In my hypothesis, in NYC there should not be such an effect because the snow is less, and it gets cleared pretty fast by the city.... ?

AS for immigrants...yup, that happens. A lot of the jobs that skilled folks move to the US to take are in cities...and this is part of the city revival.

A lot of skilled immigrants **move** to my town, because it has great public schools (and associated high school taxes). And around here any private school that is not a dump is $25k/yr. The sought-after ones are mostly $40k and up.

I still think you need to shop around and just move a couple towns over if you want to reduce your taxes, not to Texas.

 

[sportbikerider78]

The surrounding towns are much more money and you get much less.

Exactly, they move out of upstate because of taxes and move to other states because they don't have them.

I live here. We talk about it all the time. Very very few talk about retiring here because of this fact.

 

[woodgeek]

Sounds like you are making out....all those free-loading retirees are moving to another state, and young, hard-working immigrants are moving in to keep your state budget afloat. Good times.

 

[jharkin]

Sure. Since I live and work in upstate NY...here is what our area is facing.

(broken link removed to http://www.wgrz.com/news/upstate-ny-hit-hard-as-more-migrate-out/424916453)

From the article:
"Ohio also lost two seats that year. Most of the gains took place in the South: Texas added four seats, Florida gained two, and Georgia and South Carolina each gained one"

Look at that map in the article you posted- the most expensive, hi tax counties in and around NYC (NY, Queens, Nassau, Westchester) , and upstate around Albany/Schenectady actually grew. the counties that are loosing people are the far rural areas north and west. It doesn't support your theory that its a cost issue - its rather likely a lack of access to jobs issue.

I went to school in Troy. I still have friends out there, living in Saratoga. Nice scenic area but I remember it being really dull outside of class. mnost of us couldnt wait to leave when we graduated just because there was no culture/entertainment and not many jobs. Thats why I moved to Boston.



[edit: Whoops, Geek beat me to it, we where thinking the same thing]

 

[jharkin]

Around here, $11.5k gets you a private school education, or very, very close to it.

Simple. I equate it to the town taking your property by force. Which they will, if you do not pay your school tax. It is not my opinion. It is something that would most certainly happen.

I completely agree with you. It isn't fair to ask your neighbors w/o kids or the elderly to finance my kids education. That is one of the many reasons they are not in a public school.

I don't think you should be stoned....I'd never say that. I just think you are using a system that many others use that has been presented as your only option. I think you (like me) should have much more say in where your kids are educated and what they are taught.

Its certainly not my only option. We have numerous private schools around here and when I was a kid my parents put me in a private school because they thought I needed "special help"

I put my kids in public school deliberately and by choice because I believe that a publicly funded education avalble to all regardless of means is the #1 single best thing we can do in this county to give all people the equal opportunity to succeed and to fight against class inequality. I also chose to live in a state that has the best rated public primary schools in the nation, partly for this reason.

 

[woodgeek]

I put my kids in public school deliberately and by choice because I believe that a publicly funded education avalble to all regardless of means is the #1 single best thing we can do in this county to give all people the equal opportunity to succeed and to fight against class inequality. I also chose to live in a state that has the best rated public primary schools in the nation, partly for this reason.

I'm a product of the Mass public school system up through 8th grade. I'm surprised to find that it is so highly rated. I thought it was horrific when I was there...perhaps they have got their act together!

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Why in the world would you measure the amount of dollars a state sends to the federal government as a success? That is an absolute failure.

States don't send money to the federal government. It's the other way around, the federal government sends money to the states.

And red states, on average, suck on the federal teat more than blue states. Red states are a net drain on our Federal Budget which causes the rest of us to subsidize them. It's like welfare for red states.

 

[Highbeam]

States don't send money to the federal government. It's the other way around, the federal government sends money to the states.

And red states, on average, suck on the federal teat more than blue states. Red states are a net drain on our Federal Budget which causes the rest of us to subsidize them. It's like welfare for red states.

The states themselves don't but the residents of states sure send money to the federal government. That's the point. Sum up the money being sent from the state (residents of course) compared against the money being sent back to the state by the feds (to the state/local governments for spending).

I propose that the red states "get more" because they are not as densely populated. What makes a blue state blue? A whole lot of blue people and blue people like big cities. Big cities are more able to fund their own projects due to economies of scale. I may be crazy about this paragraph but there are a lot of federal highways in those big desolate red (on edit) states and not a lot of people to pay for them.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

I propose that the red states "get more" because they are not as densely populated. What makes a blue state blue? A whole lot of blue people and blue people like big cities. Big cities are more able to fund their own projects due to economies of scale. I may be crazy about this paragraph but there are a lot of federal highways in those big desolate blue states and not a lot of people to pay for them.

Take a look at transportation as a percentage of all federal spending and let me know if you still propose federal highways as the explanation why wealth is redistributed from blue states to red states.

 

[Highbeam]

Take a look at transportation as a percentage of all federal spending and let me know if you still propose federal highways as the explanation why wealth is redistributed from blue states to red states.

View attachment 198939

No change in my opinion. I must not get your point. Transportation is just one example. Population density and composition of blue states compared to red states is what I'm focusing on as the cause of the discrepancy you perceive. Whatever, not important IMO.

 

[woodgeek]

E pluribus unum, n'est-ce pas?

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

E pluribus unum, n'est-ce pas?

Yes. I was just pointing out that the wealthier blue states transfer a disproportional amount of their federal tax dollars to the poorer red states. Which is ironic because conservatives love to criticize wealth redistribution. Unless they are the ones getting the free handout.

But I'm in favor of this if it makes for a stronger union.

 

[sportbikerider78]

Look at that map in the article you posted- the most expensive, hi tax counties in and around NYC (NY, Queens, Nassau, Westchester) , and upstate around Albany/Schenectady actually grew. the counties that are loosing people are the far rural areas north and west. It doesn't support your theory that its a cost issue - its rather likely a lack of access to jobs issue.

I went to school in Troy. I still have friends out there, living in Saratoga. Nice scenic area but I remember it being really dull outside of class. mnost of us couldnt wait to leave when we graduated just because there was no culture/entertainment and not many jobs. Thats why I moved to Boston.



[edit: Whoops, Geek beat me to it, we where thinking the same thing]

If high taxes are the solution, why not double the taxes and we should see a surge of people moving back and business happy to pay higher wages come back. Right?

 

[sportbikerider78]

States don't send money to the federal government. It's the other way around, the federal government sends money to the states.

And red states, on average, suck on the federal teat more than blue states. Red states are a net drain on our Federal Budget which causes the rest of us to subsidize them. It's like welfare for red states.

And the money the government sends to the more receiving states comes from the other states...or rather the individuals in those states. The federal government has nothing it doesn't take from someone else. That's the entire problem. They shouldn't be handing out money to anyone..it only creates issues.

 

[woodgeek]

If high taxes are the solution, why not double the taxes and we should see a surge of people moving back and business happy to pay higher wages come back. Right?

A lot of communities have rolled out a lot of new services to try to make themselves attractive to employers to relocate, rich people to retire, tourists to visit, college student to not move away after graduations, etc. These services (done well) actually WORK to increase local revenue, gdp and population, as well as making the existing population happier too.

But they all cost money, so let's skip them and let our community spiral into carnage. That sounds like a plan.

 

[jharkin]

If high taxes are the solution, why not double the taxes and we should see a surge of people moving back and business happy to pay higher wages come back. Right?

Where did I say taxes where a solution? Please quote..


You stated that taxes where driving people out of state. Your articles shows that people are actually flowing IN in the regions that have highest tax (NYC and surrounding counties with the additional city income/sales tax and high property tax). My point is that your own article disproves your tax thesis.

I posit that the real reason is a lack of economic opportunity, job, etc in those rural counties.

 

[Ashful]

Either way..people are leaving states like mine here in upstate NY in droves to go to NC, TN, SC, TX...ect. The facts speak for themselves. To have a higher quality of life, NY'kers are leaving and going to states that have cheaper taxes and jobs.
Also, retirees are moving to states without income taxes, so they can live better on a smaller income.

Voting with your feet is how the system was designed to work... way back in 1778 - 1781.

 

[sportbikerider78]

A lot of communities have rolled out a lot of new services to try to make themselves attractive to employers to relocate, rich people to retire, tourists to visit, college student to not move away after graduations, etc. These services (done well) actually WORK to increase local revenue, gdp and population, as well as making the existing population happier too.

But they all cost money, so let's skip them and let our community spiral into carnage. That sounds like a plan.

Or you could have people keep more of their money and buy the services they want.

Where did I say taxes where a solution? Please quote..


You stated that taxes where driving people out of state. Your articles shows that people are actually flowing IN in the regions that have highest tax (NYC and surrounding counties with the additional city income/sales tax and high property tax). My point is that your own article disproves your tax thesis.

I posit that the real reason is a lack of economic opportunity, job, etc in those rural counties.

Sure, because the businesses are sick of paying high taxes, over regulation, state always favoring the employee, unions...ect..they leave and never come back. That's the point. Then the rest that are left have to pick up the bill.

I will not bother posting again..not much point. I've made the point I want to make.

Voting with your feet is how the system was designed to work... way back in 1778 - 1781.

I never would have moved back...just here for my aging parents.

 

[jharkin]

Or you could have people keep more of their money and buy the services they want.

Doesn't work. Services mentioned like major road projects, elect/water/sewer grid expansions to serve business, etc are so capital intensive that you Joe citizen would never be able to buy your slice if where were not all pooling together.

The same exact reason why health insurance doesn't work if only the very sick and elderly buy it.

Sure, because the businesses are sick of paying high taxes, over regulation, state always favoring the employee, unions...ect..they leave and never come back. That's the point. Then the rest that are left have to pick up the bill.

I will not bother posting again..not much point. I've made the point I want to make.

Saying "I'm done" is a weak debate tactic used to deflect when you are losing. If you are confident in your argument and have the evidence to back it up you should continue. I would welcome being proven wrong on the data.

I will once again point out that everything you have stated is hearsay and tea party talking points. If you have some evidence, studies proving that people are leaving NYS due to high taxes, please provide it and lets discuss it in detail. What you did provide was a map showing that people are leaving low tax rural rural, and inflowing to high tax urban counties. Which directly counters your argument.

It just happens that there are more rural counties than urban so the net flow is out.

 

[sportbikerider78]

Doesn't work. Services mentioned like major road projects, elect/water/sewer grid expansions to serve business, etc are so capital intensive that you Joe citizen would never be able to buy your slice if where were not all pooling together.

The same exact reason why health insurance doesnt work if only hte very sick and elderly buy it.





Saying "Im done" is a weak debate tactic used to deflect when you are losing. If you are confident in your argument and have the evidence to back it up you should continue. I would welcome being proven wrong on the data.

I will once again point out that everything you have stated is hearsay and tea party talking points. If you have some evidence, studies proving that people are leaving NYS due to high taxes, please provide it and lets discuss it in detail. What you did provide was a map showing that people are leaving low tax rural rural, and inflowing to high tax urban counties. Which directly counters your argument.

It just happens that there are more rural counties than urban so the net flow is out.

The services you are speaking of are not the majority of my taxes. They are less than 1/3 of the taxes I pay from property..the rest is schools..as I pointed out already.
You don't think the southern states with less taxes have electricity, water, gas, parks? What world are you in?

I'm on vacation. If you consider 4 days on the lake losing.....
Cant you chill out and have a conversation without stereotyping and calling someone a loser? End though you have no idea what their time constraints are and might just want to do something else than argue on the internet?

 

[jharkin]

The services you are speaking of are not the majority of my taxes. They are less than 1/3 of the taxes I pay from property..the rest is schools..as I pointed out already.
You don't think the southern states with less taxes have electricity, water, gas, parks? What world are you in?

I'm on vacation. If you consider 4 days on the lake losing.....
Cant you chill out and have a conversation without stereotyping and calling someone a loser? End though you have no idea what their time constraints are and might just want to do something else than argue on the internet?

Where did I call you a loser? ???? All I stated was that the statement "I'm done talking" is a well known deflection debate tactic used when the debaters' argument is losing. There is a difference between attacking the position and attacking the person.

All I am asking for is some data, , something more than "because I said so" and repeating party talking points as a defense of your thesis that tax rates are driving people out of NYS.


To reinforce Woodgeeks' point - one could argue that Schools are another part of the "services" that attract business and jobs. Business moves in to areas that have good infrastructure, friendly regulatory climate, and good access to well qualified candidates. To get qualified candidates you have to make well educated people want to live in the area and good schools are probably up there in the top drivers of peoples decisions where to live. This is again likely a big part of why people and business are concentrating in the expensive big cities (Boston, NYC, etc... ) even in the "cheap" south industry concentrates in the (relative to the local area) expensive cities like Atlanta, Dallas, etc..

 

[peakbagger]

Probably time to close this thread