Where You’ll Pay the Most in Electric Bills

[woodgeek]

Its hard for me to get too upset about any of this. My rates in PA for local wind power are still 20% less **in nominal terms** than they were when I was a student in Chicago...20 years ago. So I am paying 50% less after inflation, and most of my appliances probably use 50-70% less juice to provide the same 'energy service' as they did then.

Everyone everywhere agrees they pay too much in taxes and for energy. But if you look at what you get for for both, in detail, and compare to the deal in other countries, we are not.

The folks in the EU are appalled when they realize we send our power through neighborhoods on the top of wooden poles! Why not put them in an underground conduit next to the water and sewer? Don't the wires break all the time, etc? they ask. Yup...they do....outage rates in the US are WAY higher than over there. But our power costs half as much on average as theirs. You get what you pay for.

In an unrelated note, in round numbers their broadband is 2x as fast as ours, and costs half as much. My cable bill is often in excess of my electricity bill, and that is a bad joke. Don't rail at the (regulated) monopolies selling you kWh when they jack your rate a buck here or there....get out some torches and pitchforks for the (essentially unregulated!) monopolies selling you bandwidth.

Why should a year of effing bandwidth in my suburban home cost more than a year of electric heating and cooling (renewable to boot)??

 

[Highbeam]

Its hard for me to get too upset about any of this. My rates in PA for local wind power are still 20% less **in nominal terms** than they were when I was a student in Chicago...20 years ago. So I am paying 50% less after inflation, and most of my appliances probably use 50-70% less juice to provide the same 'energy service' as they did then.

Everyone everywhere agrees they pay too much in taxes and for energy. But if you look at what you get for for both, in detail, and compare to the deal in other countries, we are not.

The folks in the EU are appalled when they realize we send our power through neighborhoods on the top of wooden poles! Why not put them in an underground conduit next to the water and sewer? Don't the wires break all the time, etc? they ask. Yup...they do....outage rates in the US are WAY higher than over there. But our power costs half as much on average as theirs. You get what you pay for.

In an unrelated note, in round numbers their broadband is 2x as fast as ours, and costs half as much. My cable bill is often in excess of my electricity bill, and that is a bad joke. Don't rail at the (regulated) monopolies selling you kWh when they jack your rate a buck here or there....get out some torches and pitchforks for the (essentially unregulated!) monopolies selling you bandwidth.

Why should a year of effing bandwidth in my suburban home cost more than a year of electric heating and cooling (renewable to boot)??

I do not agree that I pay too much in taxes and for energy. I think energy is dirt cheap and I pay triple per kwh what folks do in other parts of my state. I use turbotax and at the end I get a summary of my actual total tax rate which is different than the marginal rate that most people think they pay for federal income tax. It's low, like almost 10%, and I feel like I get a lot for it.

Now about your cable bill. You probably pay too much. I only pay 31 dollars per month through a company called centurylink for "high speed" DSL that works great for my 4 person household. I put an antenna in my attic for free high def television.

 

[woodgeek]

Now about your cable bill. You probably pay too much. I only pay 31 dollars per month through a company called centurylink for "high speed" DSL that works great for my 4 person household. I put an antenna in my attic for free high def television.

Yeah, two years ago we had so-so broadband, basic cable, HBO, one box and one DVR, and a 'free' landline and it was $230/mo.

After 4 hours on the phone, over three calls, I got it down to ok broadband, basic cable, and its $110/mo. A little less than my seasonal average HVAC energy bill.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

It could be that Texas has an average rate but lower taxes...and making the overall bill less.

Texas GDP is up 3%. They are doing a great job attracting businesses. California had no growth during the same period.

Texas begins every budget cycle $10 BILLION in the hole (for at least the last several years).

This has forced drastic cuts to children's education which has damaged the preparedness of graduating students to enter higher education or high paying jobs in the workforce. It's a very short-sighted policy to put money above the health and education of the children. This will affect the state for decades in the future. Maybe Texas should consider raising taxes to levels more normal in civilized societies for the benefit of it's citizens rather than coddling the wealthiest 2%.

The share of Texans living in poverty grew faster than overall population growth and hit 18 percent in 2010, up one-third from a decade earlier. Shameful.

To make matters worse, Texas is suckling off the teat of the Federal Government, taking more money from the Treasury than they contribute. With their focus on cutting taxes to benefit the wealthy, Texas has turned itself into a money sucking welfare state, a stunning development for a state that normally prides itself on self sufficiency and that is loaded with natural resources like oil and natural gas.

But just keep repeating the mantra that what is good for business is good for the people.

 

[georgepds]

Oh for sure no one likes the cable companies or their prices ..but let's not forget, cable is an option

Try doing without electricity, and you'll see why there's a special place in hell for electricity monopolists

 

[Brian26]

You get absolutely crushed in CT with taxes, delivery charges, surcharges, etc. This was a bill from a few months ago.View attachment 198842 View attachment 198843

I bought solar panels in May and completely eliminated all of these ridiculous delivery charges. My bill is now just the $19.25 service charge.

Solar panels went online May 18th. I just got this for a recent bill.

Best thing we ever did was bought solar panels. They went in online May 18th. Here is a comparison on bills before and after solar.


First bill with full solar.

 

[georgepds]

I'm told in Connecticut the power co evaluates the addition of solar transformer by transformer. If you're the guy who exceeds the limit on your sub circuit..you get to pay for the new transformer

That's one way to limit Solar

Thanks electric monopolists

 

[Where2]

... I got it down to ok broadband, basic cable, and its $110/mo.

You probably don't really want to know what is really out there in random parts of America... Forty miles this side of the Canadian border (in Northern Maine), my wife and I have a fiber internet connection to our 86 acre farm. My old Linksys WRT54G router actually turned into a huge bottle neck in my network on the 100Mbps wired ports when I plugged it into the fiber modem, and hardwired to my laptop. If I plugged the gigabit wired Ethernet connection on my laptop directly into the fiber modem, I was getting 518Mbps download speed, 708Mbps upload speed. The service is listed as 100Mbps up, 100Mbps down in their sales literature. Here's where your mouth will drop: Price $49.95/mo for the first 24 months, special introductory rate! $100 install. (no data caps, current advertised rate is $59.95/mo for new subscribers)

Fast forward to my business in Florida: I recently found a local company can offer fiber to my business location. When I asked for approximate pricing, I learned that 100Mbps up, 100Mbps down runs somewhere around $150/mo, with data caps. The cost of install varies depending on the location of the nearest node they can pull from (it's all underground fiber cabling), and how far they have to trench to get to my office. I'm still researching the pro's and con's versus my existing cable connection at the office which is obscenely expensive. However, the fiber option for my office is being sold as the same speed I have at the farm, and 3X the cost?? Meanwhile, in my suburban neighborhood where I live in South Florida, nobody offers fiber at any price...

Oh sure no one likes the cable companies or their prices ..but let's not forget, cable is an option. Try doing without electricity, and you'll see why there's a special place in hell for electricity monopolists

Funny you should say this, our neighbors to our 86 acre farm actually do just fine without electricity or the internet. They're Amish, and don't have electric, a phone, broadband, a car, or a tractor. They have some beautiful horses, and some hard working kids.

The company that dragged fiber to my farm, is actually a local cable company. They offer TV delivered via fiber...

 

[woodgeek]

You probably don't really want to know what is really out there in random parts of America... Forty miles this side of the Canadian border (in Northern Maine), my wife and I have a fiber internet connection to our 86 acre farm. My old Linksys WRT54G router actually turned into a huge bottle neck in my network on the 100Mbps wired ports when I plugged it into the fiber modem, and hardwired to my laptop. If I plugged the gigabit wired Ethernet connection on my laptop directly into the fiber modem, I was getting 518Mbps download speed, 708Mbps upload speed. The service is listed as 100Mbps up, 100Mbps down in their sales literature. Here's where your mouth will drop: Price $49.95/mo for the first 24 months, special introductory rate! $100 install. (no data caps, current advertised rate is $59.95/mo for new subscribers)

My cable company will provide a similar deal for new subscribers in my neighborhood. $59/mo, forever, versus my current $110 rate, forever. To be a new customer, I need to disconnect for 6 mos and then reconnect. So what is their process? They start to offer you new stuff, like DVRs, better speed, etc, at a steep discount, and then when those things expire, your rate stays high, and then you need to disconnect to get back to the original deal.

The one other company here does the same chit. So I need to switch back and forth between the two, and/or never take any 'deals' (and have the wife not take any deals).

The problem with that, is that every time you connect as a new customer, they drill a new hole in your house and run a new aerial line...they will not use the 'old' one for a new customer. I currently have 4 coaxial cables running from my house to the pole in front...3 are dead and they will not remove them. So, if I want to keep a decent rate, I have to work the phone every couple years, and deal with an ever increasing spider web of cables spraying off the front of my house.

Awesome.

 

[jharkin]

Everyone everywhere agrees they pay too much in taxes and for energy. But if you look at what you get for for both, in detail, and compare to the deal in other countries, we are not.

Yep... same thing happens here. Every time a propery tax or income tax increase is proposed poeple will rant and complain its "too expense" then the turn around and drop 60k on a luxury car without thinking, or they act shocked when the school now has to ask us parents to chip in for class supplies.

I also get a chuckle when well educated folks making high 6 figures complain about the "injustice" of paying teachers a 2% raise. My wife works in the public school system. We couldn't afford even a trailer park life on what she is paid. Its almost criminal.

The folks in the EU are appalled when they realize we send our power through neighborhoods on the top of wooden poles! Why not put them in an underground conduit next to the water and sewer? Don't the wires break all the time, etc? they ask. Yup...they do....outage rates in the US are WAY higher than over there. But our power costs half as much on average as theirs. You get what you pay for.

Not to mention how ugly all those poles are.

Texas begins every budget cycle $10 BILLION in the hole (for at least the last several years).

This has forced drastic cuts to children's education which has damaged the preparedness of graduating students to enter higher education or high paying jobs in the workforce. It's a very short-sighted policy to put money above the health and education of the children. This will affect the state for decades in the future. Maybe Texas should consider raising taxes to levels more normal in civilized societies for the benefit of it's citizens rather than coddling the wealthiest 2%.

The share of Texans living in poverty grew faster than overall population growth and hit 18 percent in 2010, up one-third from a decade earlier. Shameful.

To make matters worse, Texas is suckling off the teat of the Federal Government, taking more money from the Treasury than they contribute. With their focus on cutting taxes to benefit the wealthy, Texas has turned itself into a money sucking welfare state, a stunning development for a state that normally prides itself on self sufficiency and that is loaded with natural resources like oil and natural gas.

But just keep repeating the mantra that what is good for business is good for the people.

It is not just Texas. Not surprisingly, most of the "Red" states are being subsidized by us "Blue" states. Your welcome.

 

[Brian26]

I'm told in Connecticut the power co evaluates the addition of solar transformer by transformer. If you're the guy who exceeds the limit on your sub circuit..you get to pay for the new transformer

That's one way to limit Solar

Thanks electric monopolists

That is true. I had to pay $150 for some kind of interconnection study to see if the grid could handle it. They said there was an option to have it fast tracked for $500 but they approved me in 2 days. This was with Eversource. They were actually very good and quick to work with. Net meter went in 2 days after I called after passing the town inspection.

There is another small electric utility callled United Illuminating that serves New Haven and a couple towns. They do everything they can to make it as hard as possible to get solar installed. They take months to do there so called interconnection studies and people wait months for there net meter and approval. My installer said it can take sometimes 6 months to year to get a system up and running with them. He also said they are now claiming there are to many people in you neighborhood on solar and you have to pay thousands for a new transformer.

 

[begreen]

I do not agree that I pay too much in taxes and for energy. I think energy is dirt cheap and I pay triple per kwh what folks do in other parts of my state. I use turbotax and at the end I get a summary of my actual total tax rate which is different than the marginal rate that most people think they pay for federal income tax. It's low, like almost 10%, and I feel like I get a lot for it.

Now about your cable bill. You probably pay too much. I only pay 31 dollars per month through a company called centurylink for "high speed" DSL that works great for my 4 person household. I put an antenna in my attic for free high def television.

You're lucky. CenturyLink's "high speed" DSL is an option for us too, but it is anything but high speed, particularly if you are a distance from the nearest switch. They claim up to 40mbps but in our neighborhood I'd be lucky to get 10mbps. In contrast, Comcast is at 80mbps. That said, if CLink upgrades and adds a closer switch I'd consider moving over.

 

[georgepds]

That is true......

There is another small electric utility callled United Illuminating that serves New Haven and a couple towns. They do everything they can to make it as hard as possible to get solar installed. They take months to do there so called interconnection studies and people wait months for there net meter and approval. My installer said it can take sometimes 6 months to year to get a system up and running with them. He also said they are now claiming there are to many people in you neighborhood on solar and you have to pay thousands for a new transformer.

Yeah.. that's what I heard


I think UI was recently bought by a Spanish company...perhaps things will change. Spain is noted for solar... but I don't know the reputation of the company that bought UI

 

[sportbikerider78]

Yep... same thing happens here. Every time a propery tax or income tax increase is proposed poeple will rant and complain its "too expense" then the turn around and drop 60k on a luxury car without thinking, or they act shocked when the school now has to ask us parents to chip in for class supplies.

I also get a chuckle when well educated folks making high 6 figures complain about the "injustice" of paying teachers a 2% raise. My wife works in the public school system. We couldn't afford even a trailer park life on what she is paid. Its almost criminal.



Not to mention how ugly all those poles are.







It is not just Texas. Not surprisingly, most of the "Red" states are being subsidized by us "Blue" states. Your welcome.

View attachment 198879

My school taxes in a very blue state are $4900/year. That is robbery for my one income family.

Why in the world would you measure the amount of dollars a state sends to the federal government as a success? That is an absolute failure. This chart just shows us how screwed up everthing is. It can't be used to point at any one group and say "there's the problem"! It is totally screwed up that someone is getting over taxed in CT to send his money to a trailer part in TX. I'm 100% with ya.

Either way..people are leaving states like mine here in upstate NY in droves to go to NC, TN, SC, TX...ect. The facts speak for themselves. To have a higher quality of life, NY'kers are leaving and going to states that have cheaper taxes and jobs.
Also, retirees are moving to states without income taxes, so they can live better on a smaller income.

 

[georgepds]

VT has made efforts to a distributed system. Does anyone know how they bill for these virtual power plats described below?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/29/...t/vermont-green-mountain-power-grid.html?_r=0

"In 2014, it became a B Corporation. That is a voluntary designation, requiring executives to take into account not just how decisions will affect profit and shareholders, but also how they will affect the public, generally defined as society or the environment."



According to the original post, their bill per kwh is still pretty high

9. Vermont
> Average price of electricity: 17.3¢/kWh
> Average monthly usage: 546 kWh (2nd lowest)
> Average monthly bill: $95 (9th lowest)
> Largest energy source: Hydroelectric

 

[woodgeek]

My school taxes in a very blue state are $4900/year. That is robbery for my one income family.

Why in the world would you measure the amount of dollars a state sends to the federal government as a success? That is an absolute failure. This chart just shows us how screwed up everthing is. It can't be used to point at any one group and say "there's the problem"! It is totally screwed up that someone is getting over taxed in CT to send his money to a trailer part in TX. I'm 100% with ya.

Either way..people are leaving states like mine here in upstate NY in droves to go to NC, TN, SC, TX...ect. The facts speak for themselves. To have a higher quality of life, NY'kers are leaving and going to states that have cheaper taxes and jobs.
Also, retirees are moving to states without income taxes, so they can live better on a smaller income.

Sorry. I need some data here, not anecdotes. Most large cities in the US are growing more rapidly than they have in decades, including those in the NorthEast, despite their additional city taxes.

Have you looked at private school tuition lately? I pay a similar School tax, have two kids, and private school around here would be >$50k/yr for two. Even a cr@ppy parochial school would be at least 5X my School tax rate.

If you don't have kids, well, remember that my kids will be paying for your SS and Medicare when you are old and gray.

As for state by state redistribution....I think Jeremy was not trying to say that it was wrong....we are One Nation, after all, and this goes with the territory. But rather, that its ironic that the people who are most railing against the evils of Fed taxes (and progressive policy) are largely the same ones 'making out' the most from them.

And I'm going to stop there to limit my OT.

 

[jharkin]

My school taxes in a very blue state are $4900/year. That is robbery for my one income family.

Why in the world would you measure the amount of dollars a state sends to the federal government as a success? That is an absolute failure. This chart just shows us how screwed up everthing is. It can't be used to point at any one group and say "there's the problem"! It is totally screwed up that someone is getting over taxed in CT to send his money to a trailer part in TX. I'm 100% with ya.

Either way..people are leaving states like mine here in upstate NY in droves to go to NC, TN, SC, TX...ect. The facts speak for themselves. To have a higher quality of life, NY'kers are leaving and going to states that have cheaper taxes and jobs.
Also, retirees are moving to states without income taxes, so they can live better on a smaller income.

Sorry. I need some data here, not anecdotes. Most large cities in the US are growing more rapidly than they have in decades, including those in the NorthEast, despite their additional city taxes.

Have you looked at private school tuition lately? I pay a similar School tax, have two kids, and private school around here would be >$50k/yr for two. Even a cr@ppy parochial school would be at least 5X my School tax rate.

If you don't have kids, well, remember that my kids will be paying for your SS and Medicare when you are old and gray.

As for state by state redistribution....I think Jeremy was not trying to say that it was wrong....we are One Nation, after all, and this goes with the territory. But rather, that its ironic that the people who are most railing against the evils of Fed taxes (and progressive policy) are largely the same ones 'making out' the most from them.

And I'm going to stop there to limit my OT.

Yes, I was using that comment and the map to point out that its easy to bang the drum of low taxes when your low taxes are being subsidized by somebody else (me) paying more. Sportbike, I do NOT like that I give the feds more funding than Texas does, I dislike that Texas is mooching off me, to put it in simplistic language.

And its not even that simple... since the map only shows % and not dollars or whats being done with those dollars. Heck even your home state of NY is getting more federal dollars by % than Texas, and the real bad ones are all the deep sourth states like MS, LA, AL, GA, etc...


I'm not sure what a "school tax" is but for sake of argument I'll assume you guys are using that as a code word for property tax. Where I live the property tax on my house, levied as a % of the assessed value funds the entire town budget:
Schools
Police
Fire
Road maintenance and snow removal
public works, water, infrastructure
libraries
parks
town level social services
etc...

For that I pay about $6500 a year. And that $6500 is tax deductible on my 1040 so effectively its about $4800 out of pocket. My wife works in the school and Ive seen the union pay scale - I can assure you that money is not being wasted, most of those teachers dont make enough to even pay rent in this town.

I would find your $4900 a downright bargain.

Which leads me to my question - How is $4900 highway robbery? Just throwing that number out without context tells me nothing. If you lived in Iowa, made $25k/year, live in a trailer that was worth nothing, had no kids in school and the town was funding schools with farm taxes then yeah it might be excessive.

BUt on the other hand, if you live in Manhattan, make $5MM a year, live in a $2MM condo and have 10 kids in expensive public schools then $4900 would be ridiculously cheap and probably other families where subsidizing your services.

Without that context I have no idea whether you tax is fair or not.

 

[sportbikerider78]

Our property taxes are split between school and local townships. For school I pay the mentioned $4900. For local town taxes, I pay around $1700.

See, that's just the thing. It is all a matter of perspective. What if you have no kids and are single and can deduct almost nothing? Then it is robbery.
We should have the option of taking our school taxes and spending that same money elsewhere on different education, or something completely different. It is not the schools money, it is our money, and they have no right to it. I worked for it, I earned it. It is mine. I should not be forced to pay more if I own a larger house simply because I have a larger house (I don't). It's outright theft. It is very common for a house valued at $300k here to pay $12k/year in taxes.
Is it fair to have an older couple forced out of the home they have had for 50 years because of taxes?

Teachers are always complaining about their salary, but their benes are fantastic. Great health benes, great retirement pension, 3 months off in the summer.... If it was so bad, teachers would quit. There is a waiting list a mile long for teachers here in NY...why? Because it's a good gig.

 

[jharkin]

See, that's just the thing. It is all a matter of perspective. What if you have no kids and are single and can deduct almost nothing? Then it is robbery.
We should have the option of taking our school taxes and spending that same money elsewhere on different education, or something completely different. It is not the schools money, it is our money, and they have no right to it.

This line of thinking leads to the idea that a basic education is not a right and that all families should have to pay for it. The result will be that only the super wealthy can afford education, the working class grow up illiterate and this country gets thrust 500 years backward into a new feudal society. Do you really want that?

I worked for it, I earned it. It is mine. I should not be forced to pay more if I own a larger house simply because I have a larger house (I don't). It's outright theft. It is very common for a house valued at $300k here to pay $12k/year in taxes.
Is it fair to have an older couple forced out of the home they have had for 50 years because of taxes?

Measuring the value of a house is just one option they have of determining individual means to pay. If a locale drops that then something else like a town level income tax or sales tax would be required. If I own a 300k house and my neighbor owns a 900k house there is a good bet he has more resources than I... or is living beyond his means, and that is his problem not mine.

If the retired couple is going to loose their home over property taxes it sounds like they didn't plan well for retirement. Which is all too common now that the industry has successfully killed off pensions and put all the responsibility on employees with the 401k/IRA system but there has not been the requisite personal finance education to teach people how to use these vehicles properly.

Having said all that, my state still thought of this and there are all kinds of over-65 tax breaks on property tax, water/sewer, etc around here.

Teachers are always complaining about their salary, but their benes are fantastic. Great health benes, great retirement pension, 3 months off in the summer.... If it was so bad, teachers would quit. There is a waiting list a mile long for teachers here in NY...why? Because it's a good gig.

You obviously dont work in a school. My wife does. She is single handledly responsible for the health and welfare of 700 children but could be making more money working retail. Her salary is lower than mine was right out of college 20 years ago, and the health insurance is so expensive that it would eat HALF her take home pay if we couldn't use mine.

The retirement is a mixed bag. The Mass pension is great, but the 403b is only so-so (And its one of the better ones, most 403bs are so bad with high fees and crappy active load funds you are better off not bothering). the real gem is that they also offer a 457... but most teacher salaries are so low that maxing all these vehicles would leave them with almost no take home and 90% of teachers dont bother to use them.

Most young single teachers we know work a second job in those "summers off" to make ends meet and live very far from the towns they work in due to cost of living. And when the kids go home at 3 they take a lot of work home (grading class prep). Plus the admin staff works all summer and the teachers have to come in quite a bit over the summer for class placement work, orientations, parent conferences, etc.

 

[sportbikerider78]

Sorry. I need some data here, not anecdotes. Most large cities in the US are growing more rapidly than they have in decades, including those in the NorthEast, despite their additional city taxes.

Sure. Since I live and work in upstate NY...here is what our area is facing.

(broken link removed to http://www.wgrz.com/news/upstate-ny-hit-hard-as-more-migrate-out/424916453)

From the article:
"Ohio also lost two seats that year. Most of the gains took place in the South: Texas added four seats, Florida gained two, and Georgia and South Carolina each gained one"

 

[sportbikerider78]

This line of thinking leads to the idea that a basic education is not a right and that all families should have to pay for it. The result will be that only the super wealthy can afford education, the working class grow up illiterate and this country gets thrust 500 years backward into a new feudal society. Do you really want that?

I absolutely believe that it is not a right. A right is something you are born with, not something someone else is forced to pay for you.
This right is something you believe a gun should be forced into someones face and they can be stripped of their freedom and imprisoned if they don't pay their school taxes? Is not freedom a right?

No one was educated before public schools? How did we build this society we have today? Perhaps they were just not traditionally educated and we need to take a look at how and what we are teaching kids...because it's not working. Public education is a failure. And a very costly one.

Private schools would be affordable and prevalent if Americans were not forced to pay for public education. Even if they were more, at least you could stop paying once your kids were done with their educations.

Are we off topic yet? I prefer these conversations with a smile, happy heart and a beer...and in person. Back to work!

 

[georgepds]

"...
This right is something you believe a gun should be forced into someones face and they can be stripped of their freedom and imprisoned if they don't pay their school taxes? ...."


Ooooo.. really tough tax department in your town...

What's the power company up there do if you're late paying the bill, geld you?

 

[jharkin]

I absolutely believe that it is not a right. A right is something you are born with, not something someone else is forced to pay for you.
This right is something you believe a gun should be forced into someones face and they can be stripped of their freedom and imprisoned if they don't pay their school taxes? Is not freedom a right?

No one was educated before public schools? How did we build this society we have today? Perhaps they were just not traditionally educated and we need to take a look at how and what we are teaching kids...because it's not working. Public education is a failure. And a very costly one.

Private schools would be affordable and prevalent if Americans were not forced to pay for public education. Even if they were more, at least you could stop paying once your kids were done with their educations.

Are we off topic yet? I prefer these conversations with a smile, happy heart and a beer...and in person. Back to work!

I'm sorry you feel that people should not have a basic right to an education in order to pursue success in this world. And I still dont understand why the right needs to equate every disagreement with a gunfight. I fundamentally disagree but I'll put that aside.

So lets do some math. My school district publishes their budgets as do yours I am sure. The FY18 budget for my district is $33.2M, and they have 2,889 children enrolled K-12 starting next month. Using my calculator I get approx. $11,500 per child per year.

I'll be generous and assume my schools are more expensive, lets call yours $10k in round numbers.

That means that if you have even one child attending public school you are correct that your taxes are highway robbery. Of course its you dong the robbery against the other families in town subsidizing the other $5k of your child's education.

You can opt to home school to correct this injustice.

In your world I should probably be publicly stoned by my neighbors since Im getting $23,000 worth of schooling for my kids and only paid some % of my $6500 total tax bill for it.


We can go on and on, as the same logic applies to many other large societal costs that would be crushing to the bottom 95% if each individual had to pay for their exact share of usage - healthcare (better hope you dont get cancer), roads, national defense, etc.

 

[georgepds]

Part of the reason electric bills are so high

https://thinkprogress.org/arizona-investigation-solar-utilities-15bf28f10ae3

“The FBI is currently conducting a long-term investigation related to the financing of certain statewide races in the 2014 election cycle,” special agent Matthew Reinsmoen told the Arizona Republic in early June. In 2014, APSallegedly funded a political nonprofit that supported the candidacy of two utility-friendly Republican candidates for the regulatory commission. The nonprofit is not required to disclose its donors.

"The allegations of wrongdoing suggest the lengths to which embattled utilities are willing to go to protect their interests.

 

[woodgeek]

Sure. Since I live and work in upstate NY...here is what our area is facing.

(broken link removed to http://www.wgrz.com/news/upstate-ny-hit-hard-as-more-migrate-out/424916453)

From the article:
"Ohio also lost two seats that year. Most of the gains took place in the South: Texas added four seats, Florida gained two, and Georgia and South Carolina each gained one"

Thanks for the article. Looks like NY state is flat to increasing in population overall, and people are moving in NYC and revitalizing it. This seems counter to your 'high-tax, people move out' hypothesis. Doesn't NYC have a big city tax? Really expensive real estate? Sometimes problematic public schools? And yet people are moving there anyway...

So, I'm sorry that people are moving from your area....perhaps you need more or better jobs, or a more appealing civic life. It doesn't seem to me that racing to the bottom on your local public schools will do the trick.

Also: around here, some towns have property taxes like what you describe (and mostly broken out as school taxes), and some towns are a lot lower. Seems that people with kids move to the first kind, and people without kids tend to move to the second kind (where the schools are ok, just have fewer students). Maybe you should move a couple towns over??