What's the right decision?

[heatingcostssuck]

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In your situation with a forced air heating system and no time
to do anything etc., one option which solves the issue completely and can
provide hot water is a coal stoker boiler tied into your existing hot air furnace
with a water to air heat exchanger in the plenum.

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I looked into coal, I'd love to have it from the cost of fuel alone.
I'm going to reach out to fuel dealers, but the ones from the Keystoker site are several hundred kilometers away.
There doesn't seem to be a market for it in Ontario.

I'd be happy if someone were to correct me.

 

[F4jock]

I looked into coal, I'd love to have it from the cost of fuel alone.
I'm going to reach out to fuel dealers, but the ones from the Keystoker site are several hundred kilometers away.
There doesn't seem to be a market for it in Ontario.

I'd be happy if someone were to correct me.

Coal = mucho ash = mucho work, at least to me. Also no auto-ignition.

 

[Fred61]

What do you have for a floor in the crawl space?

 

[heatingcostssuck]

What do you have for a floor in the crawl space?

Partial concrete. Some of the concrete has been eroded to dirt.

 

[heatingcostssuck]

Coal = mucho ash = mucho work, at least to me. Also no auto-ignition.

True, but the energy output / cost is amazing. At least, so they say.

 

[F4jock]

True, but the energy output / cost is amazing. At least, so they say.

That part is correct, anthracite anyway.

 

[woodsmaster]

New house and new wife... Seriously joking.

 

[heatingcostssuck]

New house and new wife... Seriously joking.

I can guarantee you, this will be the house I die in.

Whether it is due to old age, or because I won't shut-up about heating systems to her.

Filled up the oil tank yesterday, 837 litres, $869 before tax, $982 after.
For those that use imperial gallons, 837 litres = 184ish gallons.
$982 / 184 = $5.33 a gallon.

 

[Fred61]

Partial concrete. Some of the concrete has been eroded to dirt.

The first thing I would recommend would be to lay 6 mil polyethylene on the floor and protect it with a layer of masonry sand. Many of these old houses have too much moisture and it gets inside the walls and in your case condenses on the stone creating a perfect conduit for heat to follow the water and escape. It would also happen if the walls were typical construction and would condense on the sheathing giving you essentially no resistance to cold. In fact it's like having a low resistance conductor speeding up the process.

I would do a used wood stove temporarily assuming you have an available flue and work on buttoning up the structure then get serious about a permanent heating solution.

 

[__dan]

I can guarantee you, this will be the house I die in.

Options:

Tear down and build new, best bang for the buck. Trying to make the old into new will just double or more the labor, time, and cost for less finished product.

Consider digging the basement floor lower and then putting it back with drainage, baselayer, 2" to 4" rigid foam, and radiant heat. If you have exposed dirt in the basement, you will have a huge inside humidity load from water vapor coming up out of the dirt that will make the house unlivable as you tighten it up.

If you have ductwork, I would be forgetting about that and planning some type of hydronic heat distribution.

Pellet boiler, one of the state of the art European models.

Did I say sell and build new ...

 

[heatingcostssuck]

The first thing I would recommend would be to lay 6 mil polyethylene on the floor and protect it with a layer of masonry sand. Many of these old houses have too much moisture and it gets inside the walls and in your case condenses on the stone creating a perfect conduit for heat to follow the water and escape.

I've been considering this, it was on my list of: "Things to research". I just need to research how it will work around sump pumps. We normally don't have a lot of problems with water coming in, but last year, we had such an abundance of snow + fast melt, I came in to about 4".

 

[heatingcostssuck]

Options:
Tear down and build new, best bang for the buck. Trying to make the old into new will just double or more the labor, time, and cost for less finished product.

Consider digging the basement floor lower and then putting it back with drainage, baselayer, 2" to 4" rigid foam, and radiant heat. If you have exposed dirt in the basement, you will have a huge inside humidity load from water vapor coming up out of the dirt that will make the house unlivable as you tighten it up.

If you have ductwork, I would be forgetting about that and planning some type of hydronic heat distribution.

Pellet boiler, one of the state of the art European models.

Did I say sell and build new ...

I love the house, hate the bills

Can they dig out the concrete without screwing up the stone foundation walls? It's a good idea, I will need to investigate it further.

I do have duct work I part of all this is I was considering one and throwing a modine in the basement to dry it up.

My wife was against having anything stove like in the house, until she saw a Piazetta.

 

[skfire]

wow...my brain just melted..excavate, insulate, re wire, new walls, pellets, deliveries, and all under 300 a month...dan said it right...that route is the highway to hell..so re build if that is the case ..if not:,

The way I see it....

a. 70acres...free fuel..work it..now
b. Get 1 or 2 super efficient wood stoves..place them accordingly...dont know if u have chimneys in place ..if not run them new s.s. A
c. Wife hates wood???..keep her away from it, you run the stove-s/ when u r home...keep the mess outside in a shed and only bring what you need for a few days. ..keep a neat caddy.
d. Wife still hates wood???..let her sit by the fire, give her a drink, a blankie and tell her you are taking her to the Bahamas with the money you are saving.
e. Leave the house as is ..as you like it..save the dough for wife gifts
f. Start bucking, splitting stacking...get in shape...stay out of the house a few hours a day...wife will approve...
g. Keep the existing system for when u r not home..back up etc..only do some efficiency upgrades

good luck
scott

 

[leon]

I looked into coal, I'd love to have it from the cost of fuel alone.
I'm going to reach out to fuel dealers, but the ones from the Keystoker site are several hundred kilometers away.
There doesn't seem to be a market for it in Ontario.

I'd be happy if someone were to correct me.

================================================================================================================================



There are lots and lots of anthracite coal dealers in Ontario, Canada.

As far as the Keystokers furnaces and boilers are concerned
they are wired up just like a fossil fuel furnace or boiler.

The keystokers are both UL and tested for steam approval as well.

Once you set them up they are very easy to take care of, adjust for
higher coal feed rates in cold weather by installing pins or removing
pins from the timer for the idle fire time and maintaining by emptying
the ash tubs and cleaning walls of the furnace fire box to remove fly ash
and cleaning the flue piping regularly every three months in a high use
case like yours..

The Keystoker folks are always there to answer questions by phone or e-mail or fax.

 

[arbutus]

I've read several replies, not all though. I'm not a heating professional, my advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Focus your immediate efforts on a thorough heat loss calculation.
The Uponor Complete Design Assistance Manual and the Zurn Radiant Design Manual walk you through a simple calculation.
Spend a few evenings with a tape measure and MS Excel, or just a piece of paper and a sharp pencil, and calculate exactly where you are losing heat, and how much.
Make educated guesses regarding air infiltration.

Once you have this information you can use your past oil history and/or the NWS heating degree days value published for your area to determine a realistic payback time for different heating methods and costs. You will also be able to know how much heat you need in a given area, such as whether a supplemental pellet heater would be adequate or not or overkill.



I suspect a solid heat loss calculation and a few different scenarios with you adjusting R values while looking at long term costs with various heating methods (10, 15, 20 years) will lead you to the conclusion that your near term efforts and money would be best focused on insulation and air sealing.





My last statement there is made based on owning drafty 1700 sq foot house that was poorly insulated.
It was unique, knotty pine throughout, hand hewn barn beam framing, tall A frame living room and loft ...
The good thing about that place was that it had an open floorplan and we could heat it all with a monster wood stove, but my guess of 2 air changes per hour in a light breeze still made it difficult.





Also, price pellets in your area and seriously consider this if your wife will not be willing or able to help keep a wood boiler going. Sell firewood from your land to offset the cost of pellets.

 

[leon]

I've read several replies, not all though. I'm not a heating professional, my advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Focus your immediate efforts on a thorough heat loss calculation.
The Uponor Complete Design Assistance Manual and the Zurn Radiant Design Manual walk you through a simple calculation.
Spend a few evenings with a tape measure and MS Excel, or just a piece of paper and a sharp pencil, and calculate exactly where you are losing heat, and how much.
Make educated guesses regarding air infiltration.

Once you have this information you can use your past oil history and/or the NWS heating degree days value published for your area to determine a realistic payback time for different heating methods and costs. You will also be able to know how much heat you need in a given area, such as whether a supplemental pellet heater would be adequate or not or overkill.



I suspect a solid heat loss calculation and a few different scenarios with you adjusting R values while looking at long term costs with various heating methods (10, 15, 20 years) will lead you to the conclusion that your near term efforts and money would be best focused on insulation and air sealing.





My last statement there is made based on owning drafty 1700 sq foot house that was poorly insulated.
It was unique, knotty pine throughout, hand hewn barn beam framing, tall A frame living room and loft ...
The good thing about that place was that it had an open floorplan and we could heat it all with a monster wood stove, but my guess of 2 air changes per hour in a light breeze still made it difficult.





Also, price pellets in your area and seriously consider this if your wife will not be willing or able to help keep a wood boiler going. Sell firewood from your land to offset the cost of pellets.

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I would definitely think about have the land cleared and use that money
from the sale of firewood to buy a trailer load or two of coal
as you could put the furnace or boiler in detached garage
which is something many folks do to keep the heating appliance
away from the living space.

Even the smallest coal boiler and a storage tank would be
well worth the time ans effort to do as you have an old house that
needs work and by eliminating the oil expense the money saved
will allow you to repair it within your budget as you no longer
have an oil bill.


If you are anywhere near the michigan border it may well be worth your while
to consider renting the land to a sugar beet farmer too.

 

[kennyp2339]

Keep costs down, but save energy year round, install central wood stove, use the rest of the loan and update the insulation and windows on the house

 

[Whitepine2]

Cut and split wood then sell and buy your pellets best of both worlds.

 

[TimfromPittsburgh]

I looked into coal, I'd love to have it from the cost of fuel alone.
I'm going to reach out to fuel dealers, but the ones from the Keystoker site are several hundred kilometers away.
There doesn't seem to be a market for it in Ontario.

I'd be happy if someone were to correct me.

Before you consider investing in a coal burning device, make certain that you have have a reliable source for good quality coal. I agree that coal is a great fuel and I used coal during the coldest days for many years, but I have given up on coal because I have not been able to find decent quality anthracite for the last several years.

 

[Tennman]

We have very similar circumstances. You've already stated some of your priorities.... No burning in the house, die in this home, existing forced air, potentially large remodeling expenses.... You are in a far colder climate, but we accept probably $500-700 in inefficiency expense per heating season versus spending many thousands to reduce our seasonal burn by maybe 2-3 chords. I presume your home is exposed stone on the exterior. If covering that stone is not an option then get quotes to do effective insulation inside. Our daughter is allergic and in-house boiler install was not possible. So to preserve what we love about our home we accept the maybe 100-150/month in additional wood expense (I buy some of our wood). Point is, I could drive a Prius and save a bunch in fuel costs per year, but don't want to.... Priorities. For those of us with old homes I can make more from my investments than spending the money to save a few cords for increased efficiency. ROI and your priorities will help you decide how much efficiency you're willing to buy. Our 5,000 sqft home has never been warmer or cleaner with our 60 boiler in the barn with storage with only hot water entering the house. We had less than a 3 year ROI on the boiler install and probably a 1 year ROI on the storage add... And the convenience is priceless. All without doing anything to the house. Your ROI will be different since we were propane heat. I'm not disagreeing with pursuing efficiency, but for us we basically ignored efficiency and changed fuel source to save a ton of money.

 

[pdf27]

So as I see it the situation is:

• The house is going to be very hard to insulate - might be possible to cram a bit more in, but short of doing a full set of external wall insulation heat demand will always be high.
• You have a large area of land which is a potential source of free wood.
• The house is quite compartmented internally, which will make heat distribution hard.
• Your wife hates wood in the house and would rather have a high heating bill than stoke a fire.
• Cash to spend on any improvement is limited.
• Code requirements will make fitting any wood-burning appliance in the crawl space hard.

The free wood is the killer for me, provided you have the time to put in harvesting it. $4,000/year of oil at $1.20/litre is 3,300 litres (about 900 gallons). Heating oil is about 140,000 BTU/gallon and wood is 25,000,000 BTU/Cord so you're going to need to cut and season around 5 cords per year - not a minor job - if you want to provide the majority of your heating from wood. Others on here who do it can probably give you a good idea of what is involved, but I imagine you're looking at multiple days worth of work per year.

One potential solution that hasn't been discussed here is some sort of wood boiler installed outdoors (say in a lean-to shed) which feeds into large storage tanks in the basement, which in turn heat the house through some sort of water coil in the furnace ducting. That should get around the code restrictions, and also allow you to use a large boiler with a correspondingly large hopper to allow for infrequent fuellings (it sounds like it will not be practical to burn every day). Keeping the existing oil system also means that if you're out then the oil system will take over pretty much seamlessly. Placing it in a lean-to shed also means that you can fit an indoor design of boiler, potentially getting it second-hand for now and replacing with a better one in a few years if the cash is available.

In heating terms you're using about 125,000,000 BTU/year, to a very crude approximation that's averaging 1,000,000 BTU/day in winter (a heating calculation would be useful here, although you can probably get most of the data you need from logging how much oil you burn per day). That's well within the capability of the larger domestic wood boilers, the exact size you want depending on the size of storage you fit.

 

[haveissues]

I'm with the wood stove crowd since you have 70 acres of free fuel. My wife was meh about wood too. She ended up really liking the stove. Now she LOVES the boiler.

 

[heatingcostssuck]

@Tennman

Yeah, I don't want to change the feel of the house too much, and I agree, we're never going to get it completely perfect in terms of efficiency.

I started looking at the biomass' to understand them better. Do you have your storage tanks in the house itself?

@pdf27

Your assessment of the scenario is accurate.

We've done the easy stuff (except laying down the vapour barrier on the crawlspace floor, which we will be doing.

I don't want to drastically change the heating of the stone, since the house has been here 3 times longer than I have.

I have the time to harvest it, I'm still youngish. My brother cuts wood for his wood stove, my father who is in his 70s lives with him and keeps the stove burning pretty much 24x7. So, I get his stories.

I've considered turning a building I have into a boiler room/wood store for this very purpose. It would require roughly 60' of Thermopex/Logstor.

I'd need to get someone to drill through my foundation and seal it up.

I 100% plan on keeping the oil for a backup. I like oil heat to be honest, it's fast and it is a known quantity.

Getting it second hand is starting to look like the option to go with.
~

 

[pdf27]

Where cash is limited, then second-hand is absolutely the way to go - if you're sourcing your own fuel then provided you can live with any smoke nuisance (mitigated in any case by burning dry fuel) you won't gain much from a more modern boiler. It'll die eventually, of course, but hopefully you'll have saved most of the cost of replacement by then. At $3,000/year the savings to pay for a new gasification boiler will add up fast, and if you're in an outbuilding with the water lines and chimney already there the installation cost should be minimal.

Diamond core drilling through walls is pretty easy - we get it done all the time at work, through several feet of reinforced concrete. I think a few people on here (I think velvetfoot may have done so in his install thread?) have hired the tooling and done it themselves. The job they're doing for me at work is being done by a couple of electricians who got a couple of hours crash course and practiced on a spare wall once or twice.

If you're putting it into an outbuilding, it makes sense to consider the cost of the tubing against the cost of putting up a shed that's acceptable to you. If it's next to the house you can run twin-wall flue up the side wall so getting it higher and probably dispersing the smoke more, but obviously a big outbuilding gives you more room for wood inside which has to be a winner. Shorter transfer lines will also save a lot of heat losses. Dumb question - does the outbuilding already have electrical power? If not you need to budget for that too, although that's fairly easy to do.

 

[Tennman]

Storage is in the boiler barn about 100' behind the house. We have two 500 gal propane tanks standing vertical. Not possible to get these big tanks into the root cellar. I purchased and installed the boiler. Just installed storage this season and now wish I had done storage years ago. We ran 5 years without storage, but I'd never be without storage now. Night and day in how freeing it is. New Horizon is the importer for several cost effective gasification boilers; EKO, BioMass, Attack. One of my biggest mistakes was I never saw one of these systems actually working properly. Go see a system where the operator has it fully working on dry fuel. I always kinda thot mine was working, but never saw real gasification until this season. Lots of systems within an hour or two of you. Not so down here in the south. I don't know of another gasser boiler within several hours of us. No so for you. Go see a REAL gasification flame. Lots of guys here would welcome you. This is a lifestyle decision so take you time. Lots of great boilers here and great advice. Hearth was my lifeline, still is. Look at guys here with lots of posts and look at the boiler they operate. A good indication of successful boilers. Happy new year.