What to do w/ creosote?

[LLigetfa]

You are confusing wood creosote with coal creosote. They are not the same.

Perhaps, but there must be similarities. The homesteaders would char the first course of logs that touched the ground when they built their log homes. My parents purchased an old homestead that had several log buildings and I was quite impressed with how well the charred logs resisted rot.

Charred logs do last a long time, but that's because they are burnt, not because they have creosote on them. There are still charred logs laying here and there in our woods from a forest fire in the 60s.

Yes, I agree - not creosote but charcaol, ie impure carbon - all the nitrogen and nutrients burned out- nothing to live on.
This would create a barrier between the environment and the interior wood.

Edit: On second thought, I'm not sure of myself on this one - why not some residual creosote ? - incomplete combustion, volitile chemicals remain - not sure.

A bit of a digression, but I think the charring process creates creosote that treats the surface of the log.

Anyway, the compost I mix my ashes with never finds its way to the kitchen garden, only to the flower beds and lawn. The kitchen garden gets only well rotted cattle and horse manure from the neighbor.

 

[szmaine]

Have you ever eaten smoked meat? Wood creosote is what gives it the flavor. Spreading it on the garden doesn't create a hazardous situation.

Charcoal is used to filter water.

I don't think/know charcoal necessarily = creosote - as per my previous post.

Yes, charcoal filters water - activated charcoal, it has huge surface area and will absorb organic (and other) contaminants - it is not water soluble and imparts no harmful substances to drinking water....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activated_charcoal

I'm not so sure that it's the creosote that imparts the nice flavor....

http://www.barbecuesmokers.org/troubleshooting.html

Peace, Quads - Look, I agree - spreading it on the garden doesn't create a hazard for human, in fact - It has been used as a disinfectant, a laxative, and a cough treatment; it is rarely used today in the United States, but is still used as an expectorant and a laxative in Japan. - So bring on the smoked meat...

But just listing the harmless applications is not proof. DDT was fed to human volunteers w/ no ill effect. The definition of toxic does not mean only human toxicity.
And - I'm no zealot - (smoke a pack a day, don't mind a Twinkie, use Sevin in a pinch)

But from a gardening perspective (as in good yield) it may be toxic to beneficial microbes and fungi which break down organic matter releasing essential nutrient to your plants -all I'm trying to say.

 

[quads]

But from a gardening perspective (as in good yield) it may be toxic to beneficial microbes and fungi which break down organic matter releasing essential nutrient to your plants -all I'm trying to say.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you meant it was harmful to the humans eating the vegetables! My mistake. The sand we have here doesn't grow vegetables very well, so I add everything and anything I can to the garden just because the soil has nothing. It all helps.

 

[PapaDave]

Um, not to downplay all of this fun discussion re:what creosote is or isn't, but if the stove was burning properly (or at least "better"), wouldn't all of this stuff have BURNED anyway?
I've burned the stuff, (although not much) and then spread the ashes in the garden or in the woods next to my drive. Don't like to put ON the drive, it makes too much of a mess when the rain or snow hits.
So, I vote to burn it, then stick THOSE ashes in the garden, or wherever your little heart desires. Then, no worries about how toxic it is to your microbes.

Dave

 

[szmaine]

But from a gardening perspective (as in good yield) it may be toxic to beneficial microbes and fungi which break down organic matter releasing essential nutrient to your plants -all I'm trying to say.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you meant it was harmful to the humans eating the vegetables! My mistake. The sand we have here doesn't grow vegetables very well, so I add everything and anything I can to the garden just because the soil has nothing. It all helps.

No problem - compost is your very best friend

 

[PapaDave]

if it can burn in the chimney it can burn in the stove.

Very nicely put, and not as wordy as my comment just before yours.

Dave

 

[szmaine]

Um, not to downplay all of this fun discussion re:what creosote is or isn't, but if the stove was burning properly (or at least "better"), wouldn't all of this stuff have BURNED anyway?
I've burned the stuff, (although not much) and then spread the ashes in the garden or in the woods next to my drive. Don't like to put ON the drive, it makes too much of a mess when the rain or snow hits.
So, I vote to burn it, then stick THOSE ashes in the garden, or wherever your little heart desires. Then, no worries about how toxic it is to your microbes.

Dave

AMEN.

Husband takes the chimney cap, up ended in a sand pile, little kerosine, poof -all gone. SAVE THE MICROBES! HUG A BUG!

 

[johnn]

if it can burn in the chimney it can burn in the stove.

Very nicely put, and not as wordy as my comment just before yours.

Dave

Silly me thought that since it was so light and fluffy, that it had allready ignited and burnt in yet another chimney fire from the slammer install that came with the house. i didnt get much more than that from my slammer install,,seems like a lot,,however it does point to the insulation ,issue,regardless of whats causing it down at the stove. I know these savy guys could tell you the tricks to knocking out those tiles, might not be so bad.

 

[szmaine]

if it can burn in the chimney it can burn in the stove.

Very nicely put, and not as wordy as my comment just before yours.

Dave

Silly me thought that since it was so light and fluffy, that it had allready ignited and burnt in yet another chimney fire from the slammer install that came with the house. i didnt get much more than that from my slammer install,,seems like a lot,,however it does point to the insulation ,issue,regardless of whats causing it down at the stove. I know these savy guys could tell you the tricks to knocking out those tiles, might not be so bad.

Huh?

 

[PapaDave]

Hadn't thought of that, but I can't think of everything. What would everyone else have to do?
I think I'd then want to use some kind of cleaner to reclean that once shiny ss to make it shiny again.
I think if it was made shiny, it should stay shiny, come rain or shine(y).
I hafta stop now.

Dave

 

[PapaDave]

Hadn't thought of that, but I can't think of everything. What would everyone else have to do?
I think I'd then want to use some kind of cleaner to reclean that once shiny ss to make it shiny again.
I think if it was made shiny, it should stay shiny, come rain or shine(y).
I hafta stop now.

Dave

teflon!...maggie

Ok, does teflon burn, or does the fire just slide right off?
If no burn, then someone should start putting it on the inside of flues, so creosote will slide back into the firebox and get another chance to fulfill it's destiny.
Must be gettin' late,......wait, it's only 6:30.
It's me then.

Dave

 

[littlesmokey]

Have you ever eaten smoked meat? Wood creosote is what gives it the flavor. Spreading it on the garden doesn't create a hazardous situation.

Charcoal is used to filter water.

That's just not true. Smoke ash is what adds that little flavor. Creosote is condensed flamables not burned in your stove, but converted to gas. Major difference. Bad science.

 

[LLigetfa]

Um, not to downplay all of this fun discussion re:what creosote is or isn't, but if the stove was burning properly (or at least "better"), wouldn't all of this stuff have BURNED anyway?

Perhaps it isn't all creosote. Perhaps he draws indoor air that is over humidified and the moisture condenses in the flue attracting carbon particles like how a snowflake builds.

 

[Gooserider]

First off, I don't have a "slammer" - my install is wierd, but it's seemingly pretty tight... I have a double flue chimney, one goes to the basement, the other goes to the 1st floor living room (see outside photo)

The living room setup is very odd, there is no "fireplace" as such. Instead the chimney curves out into the room (the GF calls it the "brick rocket" and the flue comes straight down until the chimney ends about 36" above the hearth... (see chimney inside photo) The liner drops straight down the chimney and out the bottom (see photo of exit) The stove, which MUST be a rear exit, and not to tall in order to connect, goes into a stainless tee on the bottom of the liner... (see connection photo) In theory at least, there should be no gaps other than the tiny ones at the various pipe junctions, which I have mostly gotten w/ stove cement...

Stuff that is not really great is that there is no bottom blockoff plate, and because of the short length of exposed connector, my flue thermometer is closer to the stove than it should be... (In order to make the flue thermometer stay in place I riveted a small strip of steel shimstock to the SS Tee.

I am running on indoor air, and think it might be difficult to do an OAK because of the challenge of getting through that brick hearth to the outside wall...

Gooserider

 

[LLigetfa]

the GF calls it the "brick rocket"...

I can see why. :coolsmirk:

 

[branchburner]

And where the liner exits the chimney - is there a good seal at the top plate?
Even if the top plate is good and tight, I think a blockoff might help. Maybe you have a convection loop in that airspace.

You said "I don’t see how the amount of smoke that is coming out the chimney could get out through the bypass" - but to get all that creosote a large amount of smoke has to be going through either the bypass or through the cat, those are the only two options, right? So one of 'em must be broke.

 

[PapaDave]

Um, not to downplay all of this fun discussion re:what creosote is or isn't, but if the stove was burning properly (or at least "better"), wouldn't all of this stuff have BURNED anyway?

Perhaps it isn't all creosote. Perhaps he draws indoor air that is over humidified and the moisture condenses in the flue attracting carbon particles like how a snowflake builds.

I guess what I was getting at, is that if the stove were burning more gooder, then there would be less condensing going on, whether it was creosote or moisture with carbon particles attached. Less stuff stuck to the upper portion of his flue. Ahh fluey, I don't know.
Corrections and opinions welcomed and encouraged.

Dave

 

[branchburner]

Um, not to downplay all of this fun discussion re:what creosote is or isn't, but if the stove was burning properly (or at least "better"), wouldn't all of this stuff have BURNED anyway?

Perhaps it isn't all creosote. Perhaps he draws indoor air that is over humidified and the moisture condenses in the flue attracting carbon particles like how a snowflake builds.

I guess what I was getting at, is that if the stove were burning more gooder, then there would be less condensing going on, whether it was creosote or moisture with carbon particles attached. Less stuff stuck to the upper portion of his flue. Ahh fluey, I don't know.
Corrections and opinions welcomed and encouraged.

Dave

Agreed, he needs that stove to be burning more gooder.
I like your idea of a more gooder liner, too. Maybe not teflon, but something to coat the steel that is allergic to creosote. And, yes, it is getting late. But don't worry, we got a free hour coming soon.

 

[Gooserider]

And where the liner exits the chimney - is there a good seal at the top plate?
Even if the top plate is good and tight, I think a blockoff might help. Maybe you have a convection loop in that airspace.

You said "I don’t see how the amount of smoke that is coming out the chimney could get out through the bypass" - but to get all that creosote a large amount of smoke has to be going through either the bypass or through the cat, those are the only two options, right? So one of 'em must be broke.

I am not sure on the top plate, I've never made it up to the top myself. The ladder that you saw in the photo is one effort I made in that direction, and I didn't get much further than that ladder. We have had a sweep that has gotten up there a couple of times, with difficulty, using THREE ladders, including one with a roof hook which I don't have, and said he didn't see any problems, but...

One thing that does make me wonder about how good the liner is, or possibly the top seal, is that I seem to sometimes get small amounts of creosote particles on the hearth floor behind the stove... If they aren't coming out of the inside of the liner or the stove (don't see how that would be possible) where are they coming FROM? Only place I can think of is if they are somehow getting past the top seal (or maybe a hole in the liner?) and coming down the outside of the liner...

Gooserider

 

[LLigetfa]

where are they coming FROM? Only place I can think of is if they are somehow getting past the top seal (or maybe a hole in the liner?) and coming down the outside of the liner...

That was my thought. Is there ever any air infiltration from between the liner and the clay tile? If so, that could drastically cool the top of the liner. Why not block off the bottom and pour in vermiculite?

 

[branchburner]

One thing that does make me wonder about how good the liner is, or possibly the top seal, is that I seem to sometimes get small amounts of creosote particles on the hearth floor behind the stove... If they aren't coming out of the inside of the liner or the stove (don't see how that would be possible) where are they coming FROM? Only place I can think of is if they are somehow getting past the top seal (or maybe a hole in the liner?) and coming down the outside of the liner...

Gooserider

Yup, you got two options: 1) fix that liner or 2) open up "Gooserider's Organic Creosote Compost/Wood Preservative/BBQ Flavoring Wholesale Factory Outlet". I expect supply will continue to exceed demand until the 30% creosote tax credit is enacted. Look for it on page 13,182 of the cap & trade legislation.

 

[Gooserider]

where are they coming FROM? Only place I can think of is if they are somehow getting past the top seal (or maybe a hole in the liner?) and coming down the outside of the liner...

That was my thought. Is there ever any air infiltration from between the liner and the clay tile? If so, that could drastically cool the top of the liner. Why not block off the bottom and pour in vermiculite?

There shouldn't be any infiltration between the liner and the tile, but those are kind of "famous last words..." I'm not sure just what is up at the top of that chimney, and I haven't been able to figure a good safe way to get up there... Our sweep has, but it concerns me that he didn't seem to find any problems...

Given the age of the liner, I don't know how much it is worth trying to make this one work right either - one thought might be to try and make it through this winter, and then get a rigid stainless setup to replace it. Of course, that also needs for the GF to find a new job so that we have some household cashflow again...

Gooserider

 

[branchburner]

Maybe just try the bottom block off and see if that helps this season. That's a cheap, straightforward job. I think that bypass damper may be more of a problem than you do. Or else the damaged refractory. Can you see the cat light off in this stove, or not?

There must be a way to do a more thorough inspection of your liner - maybe ask your sweep how to determine if there are any possible problems along the whole length of it. What does he say about the source of the creosote at the base of the flue?

 

[Gooserider]

I am thinking about the bottom blockoff a lot more lately... Just have to let the stove cool down so I can get back there to work on it...

I haven't asked the sweep about the creosote. It's been a couple years since we have had him out to look at the chimney, largely because I'm now cleaning it from the bottom myself...

Gooserider

 

[LLigetfa]

Even if the top plate looks good, there could be jeeps in the clay tile letting cold air in and chilling the liner in the process. Blocking off the bottom looks easy enough and would be a good start.