vermont castings ewf30 sequoia II technical questions

[slashct]

MSG

What fireplace would you recomend? We loved the Secuirty BIS but they are rated for around the same, that was our first choice the dealerthe builder has does not deal with them so we went with the VC because of the reputation.

I saw that they make external control dampers for the flue, however from the looks of it we would need to tear an opening in the wall, anything else that you know of?

When the VC Rep comes I will let you know what they say. Do you think putting a stove in would be a better option than an insert?

Thanks

Jason

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

im not a BIS dealer, but they are very nice fireplaces. I would also look at fireplace extrodinair. The quad 7100 is also a big heater. But your looking for a insert right? If so, a quad 5100I is one of the larger ones. I would look at Pacific Energy, Lopi, and other like that.
If you put in a stove that will solve the damper problem, and you get more bang for the buck. I have to get back to work, more later.
What in the heck is VC doing saying that 40K will heat 2000 square feet? Thats the same size as the nordic, or tribute. Dont put anything less then 65,000 in that space. And get a damper no matter what the cost.

Does ANY ONE disagree with me that 40k is about half as much stove as you need for 2400 square feet??

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Ok, now i looked, you already have a built in fireplace with propritory pipe. You will have to stick with the same brand if you want to re use the chimney
The btus are 50k on a 2.9 cubic foot firebox, that doesnt add up. It should be more on a firebox of that size. Still, your chimney is sucking all the heat out of that thing, i dont know what to advise now except stay withing the same product line, you need something bigger with a flue damper, thats about all i can say. There numbers for burn time and heating capacity are way off in real world. All manufactures do that to a point, but not that bad. I hope they make one rated for 65,000 plus or at least a 3.5 cf firebox.
here are the specs:

Product Features

Steel plate iron construction
EPA Phase II certified, wood zero clearance fireplace
Meets Washington state standard
Ceramic glass window features glass air-wash system
Large arched cast iron door is air sealed & eliminates smoke and heat loss
Fall-away handle
Cast iron grate across bottom of firebox for ash handling
Cast iron andirons
Concrete ash lip to assist in ash control
Ash handling system with removable ash pan
Single outside air kit included
8" Flue collar
SK8 or S8 Chimney
Weight: approx. 350 lbs
Limited 3 Year Warranty
Heating Capability:
Range of heat output: 11,100 - 40,500 Btu/hr1
Maximum heat output: in excess of 55,000 Btu's1
2,400 sq. ft2 heating capacity
Burn time: up to 14 hours1
Efficiency: 63% * EPA default figure
3.5 grams/hour particulate3
Accepts a maximum of 23" log size
40 lbs of wood capacity
2.9 cubic feet firebox capacity
Optional Accessories:
FK26 fan can be easily installed
Spark screen (EWF30SSK)
Script Decorative steel face kit (EWF30SFD)
Circa Decorative Black steel face kit
Gravity vent kit (EWFGVK)
Majestic™ S8 three-wall, 8" chimney system
Remote heat duct kit
*For more information on the Unique EVERBURN™ Non-Catalytic Combustion System, please refer to the brochure.

 

[slashct]

Here is the Sequioa Catalytic 36A... Much Bigger, could fit it width wise, not sure about the depth....

The heat generated by Vermont Casting’s remarkable Sequoia EPA Wood Fireplace is just the beginning. Featuring clean-burn technology, it can heat over 2,500 square feet of your home with virtually no heat loss. It’s a new tradition in fireplace design and it’s only available from Vermont Castings.

Product Features

EPA Phase II certified, wood, zero clearance fireplace
Meets Washington state standard
Catalytic design
Ceramic glass window features glass air-wash system
Arched cast iron doors are air sealed
Eliminates smoke and heat loss
Square foot heating ability: over 2,500 sq. ft.
Burn time up to 24 hours (12 hours on EPA Test)
Size of logs up to 24"
Large ash handling system with removable ash pans (2 each)
Uses Majestic™ S8 three-wall, 8" chimney system
Standard Features:
Btu high: 78,500; Btu low: 12,500 (based on EPA ratings) over 100,000 Btu's max
Efficiency: 73%
4.2 cubic foot firebox
Huge viewing area: 36" W x 20 1/4" H
Less than 2.5 grams/hour particulate
Twin outside air kit (AK-MST)
Weight: 741 lbs
Optional Accessories:
FK26 fan, can be easily installed
EWF36S spark screen
Optional Face Kits (one required):
EWF36CFTK cast iron face kit (totally covers face of unit) with grills in classic black
EWF36CLK latticed cast iron grills (top and bottom) in classic black

Product Specifications
Rough Opening Width 43 in.
Rough Opening Height 51.5 in.
Rough Opening Depth 27 in.
Heating Method Catalytic
Hearth Area 729 square inches
Warranty Period Limited lifetime warranty
Weight 721 lbs.
Efficiency Rating 73 % (EPA Default)
Btu/h (Max.) 78500 Btu
Log Length (Max.) up to 24 in.
Burn Time (Max.) up to 24 hours

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

now thats what i would have sold you. Sounds perfect.

 

[slashct]

MSG You know I just thought of something--- the dealerthat did this was pushing the HeatnGlo stuff, is it possible he used HeatNGlo components for the chimney and did the Fireplace in VC to save money on the job? He was bitching that the VC pipe was more expensive, of course we paid the extra few hundred it was. Think this could be the problem? The termination on top looks just like a HeatNGlo one, not the VC ones I see online. It is a square termination not round like the ones on VC site.
I tell you if I find out this is the problem I will go off the deep end on this SOB.

BTW I looked at the Lenox (Same as BIS) and your dead nuts on the firebox size, 3.6 up to 70k BTU.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

if he did, he put your house and family in danger. You will have a fun day in court. It wont effect performance, its just a illeagle install. If your house burns down, it will be up to you to collect from him or his insurance (if he has any) if you have any doubt what so ever, crawl up on that roof and check the stikers. You will kill him in court.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

MSG You know I just thought of something--- the dealerthat did this was pushing the HeatnGlo stuff, is it possible he used HeatNGlo components for the chimney and did the Fireplace in VC to save money on the job? He was bitching that the VC pipe was more expensive, of course we paid the extra few hundred it was. Think this could be the problem? The termination on top looks just like a HeatNGlo one, not the VC ones I see online. It is a square termination not round like the ones on VC site.
I tell you if I find out this is the problem I will go off the deep end on this SOB.

BTW I looked at the Lenox (Same as BIS) and your dead nuts on the firebox size, 3.6 up to 70k BTU.

i wanted to get your last comment on the third page.
Lennox ownes BIS, but BIS is seperate from lennox thank god. Its kind of like ford and volvo, we are all waiting for ford to mess up volvo LMAO.
This is no laughing matter. I dont know what the heat n glo caps look like, but i believe they use SL300, which is a round cap. I would FLIP OUT if they installed another manufactures pipe on a differnt unit. You have to verify this, once again, it has NOTHING to do with performance, volume is the same in both pipes, it would be the blantent disreguard for your house and family,.
you cant miss the stickers on the pipe.. it will say SL300

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Now, one more thing, i would venture to guess that a ~3 cf firebox should get you about 1700 squares worth if heat, and it should burn for 6-8 hours. So one of two things is going on, the efficiency is low, or the chimney is too high, or a mixture of both. Most 2.4 - 2.5 cf boxes are in the 55,000 - 60,000 range. I dont know why they only got a 40k rating out of that unit. But what ever happens, no matter what, you need to find a way to restrict that draft. Otherwise you will be going through twice as much wood as you should.

 

[Gooserider]

Now, one more thing, i would venture to guess that a ~3 cf firebox should get you about 1700 squares worth if heat, and it should burn for 6-8 hours. So one of two things is going on, the efficiency is low, or the chimney is too high, or a mixture of both. Most 2.4 - 2.5 cf boxes are in the 55,000 - 60,000 range. I dont know why they only got a 40k rating out of that unit. But what ever happens, no matter what, you need to find a way to restrict that draft. Otherwise you will be going through twice as much wood as you should.

I don't know how much of it was hype, but when Elk and I were up at VC, they said that their policy was to be conservative on the sq ft ratings they gave their stoves. Their argument was that you will get X BTU's out of a given amount of wood, so the prime limit is firebox size. Thus every stove with a given firebox size will put out the same TOTAL BTU's per load, regardless of brand. You then had a choice of whether to run the stove hard, and get a high BTU / hr number for a short burn time, or run more consevatively, and get a lower BTU / hr, but a long burn time - you can't have both out of the same load. They even showed us some graphs of their stoves showing the different options. They made the decision to optimize burn times in their specs, which is why VC tends to have lower BTU / hr numbers for the size of their fireboxes. The trouble is that these guys aren't getting the burn times they should.

Gooserider

 

[Andre B.]

"about 1700 squares worth if heat"

Just a tech note.

Many people define a square as 100 square feet so 1700 squares is 170,000 square feet.

 

[elrack]

Jason, my sister has the same fireplace as we do. Last year they had an issue with back puffing/bad draft, particularily on windy days. They replaced their square end cap with the round louvred and that solved it, increased their draft and are now experiencing the same performance as myself. I thought I would bring it up since you have a square end.

Last night I played with the fire quite a bit. I slowly added wood while letting the temperature increase at the same time. I had to do this with the damper closed and the door cracked in order to keep the heat in the fireplace. In about an hour I got the temp on my top thermometer up to 540. I could not get any more wood in and I had 6-7" of coals. At that point I closed the door tight. It stayed at 540 for 15 minutes and after that started decreasing. In 1 hour it was down to 380 and it stayed there for 2 hours. It was 22 degrees outside, 72 in the fireplace room and 78 upstairs (furnace thermostat is set at 68). At this point I had to stoke it for overnight. Ok, I would expect that it should hold the temperature hotter than that. So I have 2 conclusions, 1 - The stove likes to run at 380 based off of how much air it is getting in or 2- overdraft.

Keep in mind the stove temps are relative.

What do you guys think?

 

[Shane]

The only time I've heard the terminology "square" was from a construction buddy that was bidding roofs. He told me that a square is 10sq. ft., maybe it's a regional measurement. In colorado it's 1sq. ft. in wyoming it's 10sq. ft. & in Andre's neck o the woods it's 100 sq. ft.!

 

[Andre B.]

The only time I've heard the terminology "square" was from a construction buddy that was bidding roofs. He told me that a square is 10sq. ft., maybe it's a regional measurement. In colorado it's 1sq. ft. in wyoming it's 10sq. ft. & in Andre's neck o the woods it's 100 sq. ft.!

Here is a usefull page on units, they say it's 100.
(broken link removed to http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/dictS.html)
But I can believe it has many different local meanings, just like "iron wood". Which kind?

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

"about 1700 squares worth if heat"

Just a tech note.

Many people define a square as 100 square feet so 1700 squares is 170,000 square feet.

i think people know that i wasnt referring to 170,000 square feet. just a guess....LOL
Thanks for the heads up. I was using that term loosley and yes a square is a 10x10 area.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Jason, my sister has the same fireplace as we do. Last year they had an issue with back puffing/bad draft, particularily on windy days. They replaced their square end cap with the round louvred and that solved it, increased their draft and are now experiencing the same performance as myself. I thought I would bring it up since you have a square end.

Last night I played with the fire quite a bit. I slowly added wood while letting the temperature increase at the same time. I had to do this with the damper closed and the door cracked in order to keep the heat in the fireplace. In about an hour I got the temp on my top thermometer up to 540. I could not get any more wood in and I had 6-7" of coals. At that point I closed the door tight. It stayed at 540 for 15 minutes and after that started decreasing. In 1 hour it was down to 380 and it stayed there for 2 hours. It was 22 degrees outside, 72 in the fireplace room and 78 upstairs (furnace thermostat is set at 68). At this point I had to stoke it for overnight. Ok, I would expect that it should hold the temperature hotter than that. So I have 2 conclusions, 1 - The stove likes to run at 380 based off of how much air it is getting in or 2- overdraft.

Keep in mind the stove temps are relative.

What do you guys think?

I wonder what your flue temps are, i would bet there in the 1000* range.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Now, one more thing, i would venture to guess that a ~3 cf firebox should get you about 1700 squares worth if heat, and it should burn for 6-8 hours. So one of two things is going on, the efficiency is low, or the chimney is too high, or a mixture of both. Most 2.4 - 2.5 cf boxes are in the 55,000 - 60,000 range. I dont know why they only got a 40k rating out of that unit. But what ever happens, no matter what, you need to find a way to restrict that draft. Otherwise you will be going through twice as much wood as you should.

I don't know how much of it was hype, but when Elk and I were up at VC, they said that their policy was to be conservative on the sq ft ratings they gave their stoves. Their argument was that you will get X BTU's out of a given amount of wood, so the prime limit is firebox size. Thus every stove with a given firebox size will put out the same TOTAL BTU's per load, regardless of brand. You then had a choice of whether to run the stove hard, and get a high BTU / hr number for a short burn time, or run more consevatively, and get a lower BTU / hr, but a long burn time - you can't have both out of the same load. They even showed us some graphs of their stoves showing the different options. They made the decision to optimize burn times in their specs, which is why VC tends to have lower BTU / hr numbers for the size of their fireboxes. The trouble is that these guys aren't getting the burn times they should.

Gooserider

i dont understand how they can understate the output in BTU's and WAY WAY overstate the amount of room it will heat. WHo in there right mind puts a 40k rating on a stove and say it will heat 2400 square feet? LOL.

 

[slashct]

The cap that is on the house now looks just like the heatnglo ST375 Cap. The one that I find for VC is a round one (in the manual), not a square one that this is, but I don't know all of the options etc.. Saturday I will get the extension ladder from my Father in Law and make the climb to the top.
I know when it was installed the sections that were used had no numbers or anything else on them I could see on them before they closed in the wall, I had looked it over.

Do you think going to the round cap that was mentioned by carl would help? The one on their now is a big square one. Another fireplace shop here told me that they can install a remote damper however the wall would need to be cut open so that the control cable can be run. If I have them do this I might as well trash the whole wall and replace the fireplace as well.

Do you think by restricting the OAK a little this might help in reducing the overdraft? Our house is tight as a drum, all 6" walls, insulated, there are no drafts in the house etc, typical brand new construction. I have no problem with the fireplace draft now no blowback, smoke etc.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I dont think you want to restrict the input of the OAK on a permanent basis, but mabey for experementation you can block a bit of it off when the stove is cranking and see what happens.
I would agree, if there willing to take back the unit you should start over with a much larger unit. While the wall is open have them install a damper. If they installed heat and glow pipe, you will be looking at hearth and home products, which is the heatilator constitution, and the quadrafire 7100. I dont remember what the heat-n-glo one is. There all the same company.
SL300 snaps together, it does not twist lock. There is a big white sticker on every section. It would be unbelievable if they did that, i serious doubt that they would put them selves and there company at that kind of risk. Its not that its dangerous, my intention is not to make you worry, its just illeagle because it wasnt tested.

 

[begreen]

Jason, my sister has the same fireplace as we do. Last year they had an issue with back puffing/bad draft, particularily on windy days. They replaced their square end cap with the round louvred and that solved it, increased their draft and are now experiencing the same performance as myself. I thought I would bring it up since you have a square end.

Last night I played with the fire quite a bit. I slowly added wood while letting the temperature increase at the same time. I had to do this with the damper closed and the door cracked in order to keep the heat in the fireplace. In about an hour I got the temp on my top thermometer up to 540. I could not get any more wood in and I had 6-7" of coals. At that point I closed the door tight. It stayed at 540 for 15 minutes and after that started decreasing. In 1 hour it was down to 380 and it stayed there for 2 hours. It was 22 degrees outside, 72 in the fireplace room and 78 upstairs (furnace thermostat is set at 68). At this point I had to stoke it for overnight. Ok, I would expect that it should hold the temperature hotter than that. So I have 2 conclusions, 1 - The stove likes to run at 380 based off of how much air it is getting in or 2- overdraft.

Keep in mind the stove temps are relative.

What do you guys think?

re: interior temps. Are the ceiling fans on low speed, reversed (blowing upward)? Did you try this with the upstairs closed off a bit (a temporary tacked up sheet will do)? re: burning. Does opening a window in the room near the stove make any difference in stove operation? ie: does the flame get brighter? I know it has an OAK, but sometimes they get someting plugging them up, particularly at the intake end.

 

[elrack]

Ceiling fans on low and reversed. I am happy with the temps upstairs (kids bedrooms). I am positive the OAK is not restricted, inspected it this past weekend. There is no difference with doors or window open.

 

[slashct]

Carl,

I put two thermometers on the stove the other day so I could compare with you. I can only get it between 300-350 depending on how big of a fire I can get going. This is one on the front, and one on top on the flap box like you, there is between a 50-100 degree difference (hotter) and this depends on the fan setting on the top.
The hottest I can get the front of the fireplace is when I have the fan turned to about 1/2-3/4 speed and the air control closed. I can get dancing flames around 200-250 degrees only if the temperature drops in the fireplace.
I decided to experiment, today since I know the draft is really good, I got a fire going in it and put a pieced of tape over the OAK, covered just about half of it. So far it is working well, the draft is still very good no smoke in the fireplace, the temperature is staying around 350.
With this setup my burn times have been unbelievably better, the heat output is better-the heat in the room has not kicked and staying around 70, not getting the room really warm but it is keeping the heat off. One thing that I did notice is now with the OAK partly taped over is now that the air control on it actually makes a huge difference. If I lift it closed the flames are relatively less and low than when it is opened (this is with the flue closed). My logs are lasting hours now still not getting wicked heat output but lasting and keeping the temperature in the room. I will load the fireplace tonight and see if it can make it through, now I have a shot at it.
MSG looks like I will have to get a damper like you suggested, one ocal guy here want to tear open the wall says they do it all the time I want to make sure that if I do this I should swap the stove. The other shop wants to get VC out here just that they have a temp rep and waiting for the new one.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

nice, that pesky overdraft strikes again. Im glad its working better for you.

 

[begreen]

Ceiling fans on low and reversed. I am happy with the temps upstairs (kids bedrooms). I am positive the OAK is not restricted, inspected it this past weekend. There is no difference with doors or window open.

No problem, I just suggested trying this as a temporary measure. 78 degrees seemed a little hot for bedrooms, so I was looking for a way to reduce the differential.

 

[elrack]

Jason, just so I am straight on this. You blocked off 1/2 of your OAK with tape, and be doing so you increased your burn times as well as heat output?

Also when do you plan on getting the damper installed? I will be curious to see how that turns out for you.