Vermont Castings Encore 2 in 1 ?

[raybonz]

The only thing that worries me about the Encores and Defiants is that they don't come with a cat probe thermometer. Mine has a probe and it really helps to see what's going on with the cat.

Condar makes a probe that can be used on these stoves. Its the one with the remote digital readout.



On another note - Is there any talk that VC might upgrade replacement parts for the older stoves to be made from this new improved refractory ?

Thanks for the reply J,
I think it should be a standard item just like mine. Too many people have probably burned out their cats and refrectory housing on their Defiant Encores, Defiants and Encore Cat stoves due to having no idea how hot the stove is or the cat is. The manual only states that thermometers are helpfull and recommended. They should be required with these stoves! I think VC would be saving money if they made it a standard issue! Most stove owners don't have a clue how hot their stoves really are, and don't care about overfiring them until they can't overburn them anymore: cracked, warped parts, huge repair bills, etc...

As far as the replacement parts for their older stoves, I was wondering the same thing. They would probably benefit from using the new materials as they seem to be more durable and cost effective. I would also benefit from this, as I have a used Defiant Encore Cat coming in a couple of weeks.

Take care,

Chris

Chris you certainly are the VCBurner! I love how they look and look forward to your experiences with it.. I would not hesitate to buy the 2461 stove you own now as I feel they will last a very long time and require little in the way of part replacement.. BTW my cat should be here today and yours probably will be too.. Good luck with that as I feel we got a great deal!

Ray

 

[BrowningBAR]

On another note - Is there any talk that VC might upgrade replacement parts for the older stoves to be made from this new improved refractory ?

It does not look possible to me. Completely different design and I doubt the measurements line up. I will be returning to the local VC dealer this week to get replacement parts costs on the new stoves (back refractory panel and the fire brick parts for the cat assembly).

 

[VCBurner]

On another note - Is there any talk that VC might upgrade replacement parts for the older stoves to be made from this new improved refractory ?

It does not look possible to me. Completely different design and I doubt the measurements line up. I will be returning to the local VC dealer this week to get replacement parts costs on the new stoves (back refractory panel and the fire brick parts for the cat assembly).

BB, you don't think they could make the same refractory parts in the same molds but with the new substrate? Of course this is just a thought, because I know nothing about the process as it really works in the factory. It just seems to me that they could use the same molds just change the material that is put into the molds. Let us know about the cost of the parts, good luck!

 

[BrowningBAR]

On another note - Is there any talk that VC might upgrade replacement parts for the older stoves to be made from this new improved refractory ?

It does not look possible to me. Completely different design and I doubt the measurements line up. I will be returning to the local VC dealer this week to get replacement parts costs on the new stoves (back refractory panel and the fire brick parts for the cat assembly).

BB, you don't think they could make the same refractory parts in the same molds but with the new substrate? Of course this is just a thought, because I know nothing about the process as it really works in the factory. It just seems to me that they could use the same molds just change the material that is put into the molds. Let us know about the cost of the parts, good luck!

I'm no expert either, but I'm going to say no. When I go to the Dealer on Thursday I will compare the stoves and see if they are even close to the same set up. But, based on the Intrepid design it would not work.

 

[VCBurner]

Chris you certainly are the VCBurner! I love how they look and look forward to your experiences with it.. I would not hesitate to buy the 2461 stove you own now as I feel they will last a very long time and require little in the way of part replacement.. BTW my cat should be here today and yours probably will be too.. Good luck with that as I feel we got a great deal!

Ray

Hey Ray how goes it? I'm curious too! I have been in love with the look of this VC line since I first laid eyes in them. I love the way my DW works and how all the parts are durable and easy to replace. I haven't needed to do it so far and expect it'll remain this way. The original CDW's and their newer counterparts were built for consumers who wanted a relatively inexpensive, but attractive and durable EPA rated heater. In my eyes they've got a good thing here. I hope the Encore will serve me as well as the DW has. If it is then I will have two EPA rated stoves with some of the cleanest burns in the market for under $1000 bucks!

I'm looking into building a stove temperature alarm to warn operators in case of an overfire. There have been many done like this. But I don't see anything available for sale. It should be fairly simple to make.

 

[jharkin]

On another note - Is there any talk that VC might upgrade replacement parts for the older stoves to be made from this new improved refractory ?

It does not look possible to me. Completely different design and I doubt the measurements line up. I will be returning to the local VC dealer this week to get replacement parts costs on the new stoves (back refractory panel and the fire brick parts for the cat assembly).

BB, you don't think they could make the same refractory parts in the same molds but with the new substrate? Of course this is just a thought, because I know nothing about the process as it really works in the factory. It just seems to me that they could use the same molds just change the material that is put into the molds. Let us know about the cost of the parts, good luck!

I'm no expert either, but I'm going to say no. When I go to the Dealer on Thursday I will compare the stoves and see if they are even close to the same set up. But, based on the Intrepid design it would not work.

VCBurners point is what I was thinking - Not shove the new parts in he old stove, but rather mark the parts for the old stove out of the new material.

 

[jobidon]

I've had an Encore 2 in 1 for a few months, and the access cover just cracked and broke in two last night for no obvious reason. The dealer says its warranted. I'm curious if others are experiencing this problem or they have any advice. I burn 24/7 and I like the stove a lot, but I do think that the way the access cover is designed to rest on a small ledge where it seems it could be dislodged by loading is a poor design detail. The ash pan is great - I remove ashes once a day - usually a small amount - with very little dust or ash getting loose in the house.

 

[BrowningBAR]

On another note - Is there any talk that VC might upgrade replacement parts for the older stoves to be made from this new improved refractory ?

It does not look possible to me. Completely different design and I doubt the measurements line up. I will be returning to the local VC dealer this week to get replacement parts costs on the new stoves (back refractory panel and the fire brick parts for the cat assembly).

BB, you don't think they could make the same refractory parts in the same molds but with the new substrate? Of course this is just a thought, because I know nothing about the process as it really works in the factory. It just seems to me that they could use the same molds just change the material that is put into the molds. Let us know about the cost of the parts, good luck!

I'm no expert either, but I'm going to say no. When I go to the Dealer on Thursday I will compare the stoves and see if they are even close to the same set up. But, based on the Intrepid design it would not work.

VCBurners point is what I was thinking - Not shove the new parts in he old stove, but rather mark the parts for the old stove out of the new material.

I don't think that will work either. At least it wouldn't work on the Intrepid I have.

 

[NinoVitale]

jstthinkaboutit - I have been told by my dealer that temps on the 2in1 are not to be compared with a standard CAT or non CAT stove. Why? That's why I asked. They said that that the secondary burn chamber is burning much of what was in the CAT and the CAT chambers will sometimes read very low, IE< it’s not being used really, the CAT, because the temps aren’t that high. My probe is just below the CAT on the way out of the stove. You are talking about exhaust temp in the flu. I have double wall and have never taken temps inside the flu so this may be irrelevant, but just wanted to pass that along. It makes sense to me that my CAT chamber may not read as high as I think because much of the burning is happening in chamber 2 where in a traditional non 2in1, the CAT is chamber 2.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Parts pricing:
Main assembly/cat housing: $218
Exterior cover (The part with the shell on it): $90-ish
Interior cover: $60-ish
Back refractory panel: $53... I think
Catalyst: $100 from what I was told.

[sorry for some of the estimated pricing. I had it all written down, but my notepad seems to be hiding on me]

The parts are cheaper, and to me, they are better made. The life span on the new materials is undetermined, but it has to be longer than the previous assembly.

 

[Clarks ACE Hardware]

jstthinkaboutit - I have been told by my dealer that temps on the 2in1 are not to be compared with a standard CAT or non CAT stove. Why? That's why I asked. They said that that the secondary burn chamber is burning much of what was in the CAT and the CAT chambers will sometimes read very low, IE< it’s not being used really, the CAT, because the temps aren’t that high. My probe is just below the CAT on the way out of the stove. You are talking about exhaust temp in the flu. I have double wall and have never taken temps inside the flu so this may be irrelevant, but just wanted to pass that along. It makes sense to me that my CAT chamber may not read as high as I think because much of the burning is happening in chamber 2 where in a traditional non 2in1, the CAT is chamber 2.

This sounds right in theory. We have yet to get any readings on our cat in our Defiant. Although I have a probe on its way.

Below are some additional videos from my VC factory trip last spring with the Operations Manager explaining the 2n1 system. (keep in mind that this is pre-production and some of the materials you see are rubber molds)

 

[jstthinkaboutit]

Hey guys, just wanted to give everyone on this thread with a 2n1 stove some information regarding the ceramic cat that came with the stove. I had mine running about a week ago in "cat" mode when I heard a loud crack. I let the stove cool down and I was trying to figure out where the crack came from and when i removed the cat it had a nice big crack in it of about an inch wide all the way across. Obviously peices came off it to cause a hole that big in it. I called vermont castings and they said they had some problems with the ceramic cats they sent out in these stoves being to big and causing a tight fit in the stove. And when they heat up and expand they dont have any room to flex and it will cause them to crack. They advised me to contact my dealer and send back the ceramic cat and they will send a new one out that is one inch smaller to it has room to expand. My date on the back of my stove was oct 15 2010. So anyone with a stove around then and earlier will have a cat that measures 2x2 1/2x13. They are sending one out that is smaller to replace it at no cost.

 

[Clarks ACE Hardware]

Hey guys, just wanted to give everyone on this thread with a 2n1 stove some information regarding the ceramic cat that came with the stove. I had mine running about a week ago in "cat" mode when I heard a loud crack. I let the stove cool down and I was trying to figure out where the crack came from and when i removed the cat it had a nice big crack in it of about an inch wide all the way across. Obviously peices came off it to cause a hole that big in it. I called vermont castings and they said they had some problems with the ceramic cats they sent out in these stoves being to big and causing a tight fit in the stove. And when they heat up and expand they dont have any room to flex and it will cause them to crack. They advised me to contact my dealer and send back the ceramic cat and they will send a new one out that is one inch smaller to it has room to expand. My date on the back of my stove was oct 15 2010. So anyone with a stove around then and earlier will have a cat that measures 2x2 1/2x13. They are sending one out that is smaller to replace it at no cost.

Thanks for the input, this is the first I've heard of this.

Now that I think about it... I did notice that the cats seem to fit loosely in some of the more recent ones which now makes sense.

 

[VCBurner]

Hey guys, just wanted to give everyone on this thread with a 2n1 stove some information regarding the ceramic cat that came with the stove. I had mine running about a week ago in "cat" mode when I heard a loud crack. I let the stove cool down and I was trying to figure out where the crack came from and when i removed the cat it had a nice big crack in it of about an inch wide all the way across. Obviously peices came off it to cause a hole that big in it. I called vermont castings and they said they had some problems with the ceramic cats they sent out in these stoves being to big and causing a tight fit in the stove. And when they heat up and expand they dont have any room to flex and it will cause them to crack. They advised me to contact my dealer and send back the ceramic cat and they will send a new one out that is one inch smaller to it has room to expand. My date on the back of my stove was oct 15 2010. So anyone with a stove around then and earlier will have a cat that measures 2x2 1/2x13. They are sending one out that is smaller to replace it at no cost.

Thanks for the input, this is the first I've heard of this.

Now that I think about it... I did notice that the cats seem to fit loosely in some of the more recent ones which now makes sense.

Great info on this new technology. Thanks for the videos Jay Clark, once again, you've gone beyond to provide us with knowledge that we would not have were it not for your input. The more I learn about these 2n1 stoves the more I wish I had one. I did not know they essentially have a third catalytic burn in addition to the secondary non-cat burn. What an incredible technology! One thing I don't understand is how does one go from cat to non cat burns? Is there some sort of bypass on top of the cat?

 

[raybonz]

Hey guys, just wanted to give everyone on this thread with a 2n1 stove some information regarding the ceramic cat that came with the stove. I had mine running about a week ago in "cat" mode when I heard a loud crack. I let the stove cool down and I was trying to figure out where the crack came from and when i removed the cat it had a nice big crack in it of about an inch wide all the way across. Obviously peices came off it to cause a hole that big in it. I called vermont castings and they said they had some problems with the ceramic cats they sent out in these stoves being to big and causing a tight fit in the stove. And when they heat up and expand they dont have any room to flex and it will cause them to crack. They advised me to contact my dealer and send back the ceramic cat and they will send a new one out that is one inch smaller to it has room to expand. My date on the back of my stove was oct 15 2010. So anyone with a stove around then and earlier will have a cat that measures 2x2 1/2x13. They are sending one out that is smaller to replace it at no cost.

Thanks for the input, this is the first I've heard of this.

Now that I think about it... I did notice that the cats seem to fit loosely in some of the more recent ones which now makes sense.

Great info on this new technology. Thanks for the videos Jay Clark, once again, you've gone beyond to provide us with knowledge that we would not have were it not for your input. The more I learn about these 2n1 stoves the more I wish I had one. I did not know they essentially have a third catalytic burn in addition to the secondary non-cat burn. What an incredible technology! One thing I don't understand is how does one go from cat to non cat burns? Is there some sort of bypass on top of the cat?

If I remember right I think you have to take out the cat to use secondary combustion.. If you go to VC's website htey will shed light on this subject..

Ray

 

[VCBurner]

If I remember right I think you have to take out the cat to use secondary combustion.. If you go to VC's website htey will shed light on this subject..

Ray

Hi Ray, did you watch the videos J Clark posted? They are really good at explainning what goes on inside the secondary and terciary burn chambers. He explained that while in cat mode the smoke still goes through the secondary chamber, if I remember correctly. Quite different than what I thought it did. I thought you had to pick between cat or non cat burn. But, that doesn't seem to be the case. However, you heard that in order to run it in non cat alone you need to take out the cat? That makes things a little more complicated. Although, it looks really simple to remove the cat. But it would not make it possible to do with a hot stove. Perhaps, it would be good for shoulder season as the guy mentions on the video. But, you would need to open it up and take some things appart to put the cat in.

Whatever the case, while in cat mode, it souds like a lot for the smoke to do before it reaches the exhaust flue in the chimney. Which probably means a good draft is required. This sort of goes along with the rest of the VC stoves. I could envision people with less than adequate chimney height and non lined outside masonry chimneys complaining about performance as a result of poor draft and such.

 

[Clarks ACE Hardware]

If I remember right I think you have to take out the cat to use secondary combustion.. If you go to VC's website htey will shed light on this subject..

Ray

Hi Ray, did you watch the videos J Clark posted? They are really good at explainning what goes on inside the secondary and terciary burn chambers. He explained that while in cat mode the smoke still goes through the secondary chamber, if I remember correctly. Quite different than what I thought it did. I thought you had to pick between cat or non cat burn. But, that doesn't seem to be the case. However, you heard that in order to run it in non cat alone you need to take out the cat? That makes things a little more complicated. Although, it looks really simple to remove the cat. But it would not make it possible to do with a hot stove. Perhaps, it would be good for shoulder season as the guy mentions on the video. But, you would need to open it up and take some things appart to put the cat in.

Whatever the case, while in cat mode, it souds like a lot for the smoke to do before it reaches the exhaust flue in the chimney. Which probably means a good draft is required. This sort of goes along with the rest of the VC stoves. I could envision people with less than adequate chimney height and non lined outside masonry chimneys complaining about performance as a result of poor draft and such.

It's my pleasure to share as much info as possible. I plan on starting a thread with all the pics and video I have from the factory when I get the time.


You are correct, in that, when the cat is in place it is simply stacked on top of the existing secondary burn system. Our display Defiant 2n1 flue temps typically hover around 250-300 (surface mounted on oval connector) while the griddle temps are reading 600-650. Most other non-cat stoves would be seeing flue temps at around 500 with stove temps around 650.

The only way you switch between these modes is simply removing the cat. This takes literally less than 15 seconds.

In fact, I'm starting to believe that because they made it so easy to replace/install the cat in these the access cover design suffers (ie. it's not very securely mounted) which is why you are seeing a lot of people breaking them, NOT because of composition of the refractory material.

 

[VCBurner]

I plan on starting a thread with all the pics and video I have from the factory when I get the time.
You are correct, in that, when the cat is in place it is simply stacked on top of the existing secondary burn system. Our display Defiant 2n1 flue temps typically hover around 250-300 (surface mounted on oval connector) while the griddle temps are reading 600-650. Most other non-cat stoves would be seeing flue temps at around 500 with stove temps around 650.

The only way you switch between these modes is simply removing the cat. This takes literally less than 15 seconds.

In fact, I'm starting to believe that because they made it so easy to replace/install the cat in these the access cover design suffers (ie. it's not very securely mounted) which is why you are seeing a lot of people breaking them, NOT because of composition of the refractory material.

When you create this thread please let me know, I'd love to see it. I have been researching the history of VC and have found a lot of info on the subject. I wanted to know why they went from such a popular company to one that some people avoid. A lot had to happen in between. But they are still on the cutting edge of wood burning technology as the 2n1's clearly show. Thank you again for all the information.

 

[barrettdp]

One of those videos shows the guy placing the new 2in1 system in place of the Everburn system. It appears that the base of the models are the same then? It would make me wonder if you have an Everburn system if you could easily replace it with the 2in1???

 

[Ductape]

One of those videos shows the guy placing the new 2in1 system in place of the Everburn system. It appears that the base of the models are the same then? It would make me wonder if you have an Everburn system if you could easily replace it with the 2in1???

That would be the best thing to happen to us owners of the previous generation of VC stoves. Maybe a current VC dealer would be kind enough to find out if the internals are interchangeable??? That may be all that keeps our stoves out of the scrap metal pile (assuming the current stoves end up working out long term).

 

[bobabuoy]

If I remember right I think you have to take out the cat to use secondary combustion.. If you go to VC's website htey will shed light on this subject..

Ray

Hi Ray, did you watch the videos J Clark posted? They are really good at explainning what goes on inside the secondary and terciary burn chambers. He explained that while in cat mode the smoke still goes through the secondary chamber, if I remember correctly. Quite different than what I thought it did. I thought you had to pick between cat or non cat burn. But, that doesn't seem to be the case. However, you heard that in order to run it in non cat alone you need to take out the cat? That makes things a little more complicated. Although, it looks really simple to remove the cat. But it would not make it possible to do with a hot stove. Perhaps, it would be good for shoulder season as the guy mentions on the video. But, you would need to open it up and take some things appart to put the cat in.

Whatever the case, while in cat mode, it souds like a lot for the smoke to do before it reaches the exhaust flue in the chimney. Which probably means a good draft is required. This sort of goes along with the rest of the VC stoves. I could envision people with less than adequate chimney height and non lined outside masonry chimneys complaining about performance as a result of poor draft and such.

I had mine installed recently and have had some smoking issues. It turns out my chimney (installed by the dealer) is only about 13ft high. I had to point out to the dealer that the manual recommends a minimum of 16ft chimney. I am hoping adding on some extra will fix the issues. But clearly my dealer wasn't trained properly by VC.

 

[NinoVitale]

A few thoughts. 1 - I don't think we want flew temps of 500 because that would imply the heat is going up the chimney. Isn't the idea to burn all that you can out of the fire, gas and smoke before exiting to this. 2 - My CAT fits loosely. I have taken the stove apart several times. There is a hole in the back of the rear heat sheild. Pop the silver button and poke the probe through. My 2in1 encore had a hole in the iron cast into the CAT chamber (just past the CAT) IE, the probe is located just after the CAT and just before the the exit to the flew. 3 - I have burned my 2in1 for at least 300-400 hours now and have had no problems, but I also heat it up slow and take cast iron, never griddle temps, of 450 plus before entering bypass/CAT mode. Griddle temps are irrelavant to burning for heat. If you intend on cooking with it, great, but I can get the griddle up to 500 and the stove is still at 200. It's going to take 30 plus minutes to get 470 pounds of iron up to CAT burning temp to flick the bypass. 4 - I see no reason to ever put the stove into bypass without the CAT unless I were selling the stoves. The flames are different, but you reduce the efficiency of the stove and increase your wood usage. I burn for heat and I want to haul wood less and get as much BTUs out of my wood as possible. This means I use all the available efficiencies. I'm confused why anyone would want to remove the CAT. heating the flew up should provide adequate ventilation and if not, crack a window, heat it, and close the window. The CAT really does nothing to stop the air flow as it's just a chamber with a bunch of holes. They get above 1000 and burn as much away as possible. I get very little to no smoke out of my chimney when I'm heating properly, IE, 450 plus iron temp and in bypass with the CAT. Runs very efficient. Just my two cents. I love the stove. My dealer also burns their stoves not packed like I do, so they get very pretty flames, with the CAT in. They just put 2-3 logs toward the back and it always looks pretty in there.

 

[NinoVitale]

Jay, the videos are the bomb. If they would just post consumer ready stuff like this, they'd sell a lot more stoves. I have seen some dealers who do their homework and others where I know more than them. Getting any info off the VC website is lame. When I spend this kind of money, I want to dig into the details and make a wise choice. Although I already have this information from a good dealer and taking this stove apart and making sense of it myself, this was great to see and confirm. I think it probably makes even more sense to someone who has time with their hands in the stove. BRAVO!

 

[VCBurner]

If I remember right I think you have to take out the cat to use secondary combustion.. If you go to VC's website htey will shed light on this subject..

Ray

Hi Ray, did you watch the videos J Clark posted? They are really good at explainning what goes on inside the secondary and terciary burn chambers. He explained that while in cat mode the smoke still goes through the secondary chamber, if I remember correctly. Quite different than what I thought it did. I thought you had to pick between cat or non cat burn. But, that doesn't seem to be the case. However, you heard that in order to run it in non cat alone you need to take out the cat? That makes things a little more complicated. Although, it looks really simple to remove the cat. But it would not make it possible to do with a hot stove. Perhaps, it would be good for shoulder season as the guy mentions on the video. But, you would need to open it up and take some things appart to put the cat in.

Whatever the case, while in cat mode, it souds like a lot for the smoke to do before it reaches the exhaust flue in the chimney. Which probably means a good draft is required. This sort of goes along with the rest of the VC stoves. I could envision people with less than adequate chimney height and non lined outside masonry chimneys complaining about performance as a result of poor draft and such.

I had mine installed recently and have had some smoking issues. It turns out my chimney (installed by the dealer) is only about 13ft high. I had to point out to the dealer that the manual recommends a minimum of 16ft chimney. I am hoping adding on some extra will fix the issues. But clearly my dealer wasn't trained properly by VC.

It would be unfair to blame VC for an installer obvious carelessness. The manual clearly states the chimney height requirement of 16'. The dealer probably did not think much about it or was trying to make a sale and didn't install it correctly. Any installer/dealer should be aware of the required flue sizes before they put a stove in someone's house. It is not only important for stove operation but could become a hazzard if done incorrectly. Smoke in your house is a health hazzard and if caused by the imperfect stove installation, it is the dealer/installer's problem. I would call the dealer and make him get you an extension at his cost or refund your money and pick up the stove. Afterall, not everyone is willing to have a chimney extension added, mostly because of asthetic reasons. The extensions that are attractive are usually REALLY expensive, in relation to other less attractive ones on the market.

 

[bobabuoy]

If I remember right I think you have to take out the cat to use secondary combustion.. If you go to VC's website htey will shed light on this subject..

Ray

Hi Ray, did you watch the videos J Clark posted? They are really good at explainning what goes on inside the secondary and terciary burn chambers. He explained that while in cat mode the smoke still goes through the secondary chamber, if I remember correctly. Quite different than what I thought it did. I thought you had to pick between cat or non cat burn. But, that doesn't seem to be the case. However, you heard that in order to run it in non cat alone you need to take out the cat? That makes things a little more complicated. Although, it looks really simple to remove the cat. But it would not make it possible to do with a hot stove. Perhaps, it would be good for shoulder season as the guy mentions on the video. But, you would need to open it up and take some things appart to put the cat in.

Whatever the case, while in cat mode, it souds like a lot for the smoke to do before it reaches the exhaust flue in the chimney. Which probably means a good draft is required. This sort of goes along with the rest of the VC stoves. I could envision people with less than adequate chimney height and non lined outside masonry chimneys complaining about performance as a result of poor draft and such.

I had mine installed recently and have had some smoking issues. It turns out my chimney (installed by the dealer) is only about 13ft high. I had to point out to the dealer that the manual recommends a minimum of 16ft chimney. I am hoping adding on some extra will fix the issues. But clearly my dealer wasn't trained properly by VC.

It would be unfair to blame VC for an installer obvious carelessness. The manual clearly states the chimney height requirement of 16'. The dealer probably did not think much about it or was trying to make a sale and didn't install it correctly. Any installer/dealer should be aware of the required flue sizes before they put a stove in someone's house. It is not only important for stove operation but could become a hazzard if done incorrectly. Smoke in your house is a health hazzard and if caused by the imperfect stove installation, it is the dealer/installer's problem. I would call the dealer and make him get you an extension at his cost or refund your money and pick up the stove. Afterall, not everyone is willing to have a chimney extension added, mostly because of asthetic reasons. The extensions that are attractive are usually REALLY expensive, in relation to other less attractive ones on the market.

I didn't mean it to come across that it was VC's fault. Just rather that the folks at this particular dealer didn't know. The sweeps/installer may not be properly trained by whoever keeps everyone up to date on the new stuff at their company.