Upgrade 30-NC to Ideal Steel?

[Isaiah53]

I'm just curious why you think Blaze King will go 15-18 hours and the Ideal only 7-9? The Ideal Steel can burn just as low and slow as Blaze King. The only difference is Blaze King has a primary thermostat and Woodstock uses automatic catalyst air.

I simply based it on a ratio of what I get from my BK versus what others get with the same stove burning hardwoods (15-18 hours versus 24-30). I believe the difference is almost entirely due to the heating value of my wood supply as I get very good turndown on my stove in terms of heat output. I would expect him to get about 60-70% of the burn time someone is getting using quality hardwoods. I think this generally lines up with his experience with the NC-30. I assumed an IS burn time of 12-14 hours based on what I have read here and on their website. If you can get 18-20 hours, then it would go up accordingly.

The Colorado Rockies are a much different environment from western Washington. You are typically burning standing or fallen dead wood that has been killed by beetles or drought and has likely been there for several years. Rarely do you get large freshly cut live trees. A 60 foot tall Douglas Fir is a tall tree in Colorado. I believe they grow to 150-200 ft in western Washington. The low humidity just seems to take a lot of the density out of the wood. I am amazed at how light it is when I carry it in, especially the pine. You simply cannot pack the stove with as much mass (weight) of wood.

Although I do think the BK would fit his needs, I am not trying to dissuade the OP from going with an IS. I am simply pointing out that he should not expect to get the same burn time others are reporting due to the nature of his wood supply, regardless of whatever stove he chooses.

 

[JA600L]

I burn the same low btu woods and have no problem getting 24 hour burns before the cat goes inactive.

Could you clarify this for me? When you say "cat inactive" how is this determined? Are you using a thermocouple, cat probe, temp gun?

 

[CO burner]

What is "automatic catalyst air"?

BB I understand and appreciate your enthusiasm for moderation and the 30-nc, it is a great and adjustable undervalued stove for putting out amazing amounts of heat and this is a great forum for folks looking for answers they can't find elsewhere. If I had hardwood to burn I think I would be getting significantly better results for all those keeping score. If I lived in a less efficient space, I would love its ability to throw unequivocal amounts of heat out. As is, I avoid turning on the ceiling fan 20' above to let the heat accumulate in the vaulted ceiling. I am in a temperate climate and my house is sprayed with with icynene insulation. My friend will love and appreciate the englander in the old train depot that he is rehabbing. He is young strong and loves splitting lots of firewood. I just keep thinking that there has to be something better, and that's why I'm here asking questions of experienced burners and those who have first hand experience with the woodstock ideal steel or are looking for the next best thing to the 30-nc.

Since you were honestly curious, the catalyst air is ” - an air intake controlled by a self adjusting bi-metallic coil which feeds a perforated stainless steel tube located behind the catalyst. The “catalyst air” improves emissions and efficiency at high burn rates, provides overfire protection, and stabilizes the burn rate. The regulatory function of “catalyst air” is conceptually much like a barometric damper (see box below), except that it’s inside the stove and targeted at emissions as well as efficiency and burn rate. Like the barometric damper, the operator doesn’t have to do anything to control “catalyst air; it is self adjusting. Sounds super fancy, yeah?

 

[rdust]

Could you clarify this for me? When you say "cat inactive" how is this determined? Are you using a thermocouple, cat probe, temp gun?

He is talking about the cat probe, below 500* is considered inactive.

 

[CO burner]

I simply based it on a ratio of what I get from my BK versus what others get with the same stove burning hardwoods (15-18 hours versus 24-30). I believe the difference is almost entirely due to the heating value of my wood supply as I get very good turndown on my stove in terms of heat output. I would expect him to get about 60-70% of the burn time someone is getting using quality hardwoods. I think this generally lines up with his experience with the NC-30. I assumed an IS burn time of 12-14 hours based on what I have read here and on their website. If you can get 18-20 hours, then it would go up accordingly.

The Colorado Rockies are a much different environment from western Washington. You are typically burning standing or fallen dead wood that has been killed by beetles or drought and has likely been there for several years. Rarely do you get large freshly cut live trees. A 60 foot tall Douglas Fir is a tall tree in Colorado. I believe they grow to 150-200 ft in western Washington. The low humidity just seems to take a lot of the density out of the wood. I am amazed at how light it is when I carry it in, especially the pine. You simply cannot pack the stove with as much mass (weight) of wood.

Although I do think the BK would fit his needs, I am not trying to dissuade the OP from going with an IS. I am simply pointing out that he should not expect to get the same burn time others are reporting due to the nature of his wood supply, regardless of whatever stove he chooses.

You are correct in assuming that we are burning dead standing trees. In our forest district, we can't cut live trees over 15". It is hard to get an idea about what a stove will do with my wood supply since most everyone else that is active on these forums is burning wood that I can only dream of having. This point is where I keep hoping BKVP will chime in and offer me dealer pricing fora guy who can't get any service since no one in a 100 mile radius has ever heard of a Blaze King ... Or that someone with an IS can tell me it will overnight burn cleanly at 400 degrees. The last thing I want is the "my stove is better" pissing contest that every single one of these threads has turned into on this and the two other sites I have found.

 

[rdust]

The last thing I want is the "my stove is better" pissing contest that every single one of these threads has turned into on this and the two other sites I have found.

Unfortunately it's hard to get away from as you're finding out. Almost everyone wants to think they have the "best" stove. The reality is there are a bunch of great stoves out there that may or may not work right for every application. It took me 2 stoves but I've found the one that is "right" for me.

From what owners say the IS will burn low and slow just fine. When we get into the shoulder season weather I'm anxious to see how low/long they'll burn. I also want to see how everyone fills that awkward space in the IS firebox that is created by that sloped roof. Looks like filling the stove n/s then laying a small split or 2 e/w may work. I guess all e/w would work too but I personally don't load e/w and will never own a stove that does.

 

[CO burner]

Unfortunately it's hard to get away from as you're finding out. Almost everyone wants to think they have the "best" stove. The reality is there are a bunch of great stoves out there that may or may not work right for every application. It took me 2 stoves but I've found the one that is "right" for me.

From what owners say the IS will burn low and slow just fine. When we get into the shoulder season weather I'm anxious to see how low/long they'll burn.

Thanks for the unmeasured participation. So what's your stove history rdust? What didn't cut it for you until you found your 'princess' on the second try?

 

[JA600L]

For what you are trying to do either stove will work. Now you just have to narrow it down to price, looks, and whoever gives you the best service.

The Ideal Steel by nature was built to be an affordable stove with clean emissions. It puts people who can't afford Blaze King into the higher efficiency circle. It's pretty amazing you can pick one of these up for $1700. That's serious bang for your buck and it's made in the USA by some really talented craftsman. I like manufacturer direct.


Blaze King is also a great stove, but you will pay more. The thermostat is a nice feature. I've never heard anyone complain.

 

[rdust]

Thanks for the unmeasured participation. So what's your stove history rdust? What didn't cut it for you until you found your 'princess' on the second try?

My history is not nearly as colored as a bunch of members here. My first stove was a Lopi Endeavor, while it was a great little stove it just wanted what I needed. I pretty much fell into the typically trap that many fall into. The stove was rated for 2000 sq'(I'm heating just shy of that), it was a non cat(dealer explained how "bad" a cat stove was) and it was only going to be used to supplement my propain bill(started burning full time after the first few days, screw supplement!). I used the stove for two seasons, it performed ok but I couldn't deal with the rocket to the moon/crash back down and the feeling of having no control with a full load. My wife also worked from home when we got the stove but changed jobs after that and started commuting daily. We needed a stove that was controllable, bigger and burned longer due to our amount of time away from home.

After reading all the stories here of the coveted BK stoves I started wanting one. I find it funny that I can find many posts I made about how the BK was a great burning stove but I would "never" own one since it was too "ugly" and I wanted to see a fireshow if I was going to bust my butt collecting wood. Honestly I thought there was some truth to it's performance but was mostly internet fairy tails. I started pricing them and looking for used ones on craigslist. I found a great deal on a 2006 floor model that was never burned in NJ(if I remember right) for 1200 bucks! The hearth shop was changing their showroom and wanted the stove gone. I paid the couple hundred dollar freight to my work and the rest is history. On my 4th season with it and I"m now the one posting the internet fairy tails. The stove actually exceeded my expectations.

 

[JA600L]

He is talking about the cat probe, below 500* is considered inactive.

OK I see. The only reason I ask is that If I open my lid and shoot the cat with my IR gun it reads 500 + degrees but I know the cat is not active in coaling. I also find that any kind of bimettalic temp probe typically just gets you in the ball park but usually favors higher then lower. That's why I asked about a thermocouple which I see as the more accurate way to measure cat performance.

I typically assume that internal temperatures can be higher making you believe that the cat is still active. How do you actually prove that the cat is active and it's not just charcoal bodies insulated keeping the temperatures up? Just my 2 cents.

In my opinion a cat probe is a tool used to ensure proper cat take off on start up to tell you when to close the bypass. It's also useful in case the cat stalls. After that it doesn't help much and stove top temps are what matter from there.

 

[Highbeam]

Cool story.

Trying my best to avoid the pissing match. My one line generic quote about a cat stove, "the story" was to demonstrate that low btu wood species in a cat stove from either Woodstock or BK, will happily burn for a very very long time. This was a surprise to me and apparently is a surprise to others. I was supporting your point PDX.

Cottonwood will burn almost as long as douglas fir in my experience with a cat stove. Weird. Certainly the heat output must be lower over the burn. So if you need X btus then your burn time will be less with a lesser wood but in a tight house in a moderate climate we find that burn time is often more important than high output.

 

[Highbeam]

OK I see. The only reason I ask is that If I open my lid and shoot the cat with my IR gun it reads 500 + degrees but I know the cat is not active in coaling. I also find that any kind of bimettalic temp probe typically just gets you in the ball park but usually favors higher then lower. That's why I asked about a thermocouple which I see as the more accurate way to measure cat performance.

I typically assume that internal temperatures can be higher making you believe that the cat is still active. How do you actually prove that the cat is active and it's not just charcoal bodies insulated keeping the temperatures up? Just my 2 cents.

In my opinion a cat probe is a tool used to ensure proper cat take off on start up to tell you when to close the bypass. It's also useful in case the cat stalls. After that it doesn't help much and stove top temps are what matter from there.

Everybody defines burntime differently. As such, we need to be specific about what we mean when we quote a burntime or we risk misleading the audience. BK, and I think others, provide a cat probe meter that indicates cat temperature that allegedly lists 500 degrees as the active/inactive line. That is a decent way to measure burn time and at least repeatable.

 

[begreen]

Everybody defines burntime differently.

Burn time is relative. Everyone is burning in different stoves, different wood, different chimneys, loading it differently, in different houses, different climates, different age stoves and catalysts, etc..

Saw this IS beta tester quote on Woodstock's site today:
4/7/14
"Loaded the stove 75% full as we were headed out the door for the hospital. Sydney was born that morning. We came home 3 days later and still had enough coals in the IS to start a fire, easily. 56 hours later!!"
Doug K.
Newbury, VT

This has more to do with the insulating power of ash than burn time.

 

[Comanche79p]

You are correct in assuming that we are burning dead standing trees. In our forest district, we can't cut live trees over 15". It is hard to get an idea about what a stove will do with my wood supply since most everyone else that is active on these forums is burning wood that I can only dream of having. This point is where I keep hoping BKVP will chime in and offer me dealer pricing fora guy who can't get any service since no one in a 100 mile radius has ever heard of a Blaze King ... Or that someone with an IS can tell me it will overnight burn cleanly at 400 degrees. The last thing I want is the "my stove is better" pissing contest that every single one of these threads has turned into on this and the two other sites I have found.

Not sure how far you are from Monte Vista, but the Monte Vista Coop is a dealer for Blaze King.

 

[blueguy]

This point is where I keep hoping BKVP will chime in and offer me dealer pricing fora guy who can't get any service since no one in a 100 mile radius has ever heard of a Blaze King ...

Why not do what I did? The nearest BK dealer to me is 2 hours away. I chatted with him to get all of my questions answered and had my Sirocco drop shipped to me. He volunteered to have it shipped to him and then come and install it for free as part of the price, but I didn't want the added hassle of trying to coordinate that. So, it was drop shipped to my house and I installed it.

 

[begreen]

That will work for some folks that are handy, follow instructions and are stove enthusiasts, but a lot should not be installing their own stoves. Then, what if there are warranty issues? Who checks the stove out and services or replaces it?

 

[rdust]

In my opinion a cat probe is a tool used to ensure proper cat take off on start up to tell you when to close the bypass. It's also useful in case the cat stalls. After that it doesn't help much and stove top temps are what matter from there.

I completely agree, for me it doesn't mean it's "active", it just has a high enough temp to be active if smoke was introduced that needed to be burned. Either way I don't pay much attention to it once I close the bypass.

 

[Barnett]

Why not do what I did? The nearest BK dealer to me is 2 hours away. I chatted with him to get all of my questions answered and had my Sirocco drop shipped to me. He volunteered to have it shipped to him and then come and install it for free as part of the price, but I didn't want the added hassle of trying to coordinate that. So, it was drop shipped to my house and I installed it.

i think anyone burning fires in a box indoors oughta be handy . period .. I woulda hated to pay for the install of my stove codes great and all that but i wanted a bit more . stoves great (woodstock progress) getting a wood supply program in place is harder than all of it ..

 

[Barnett]

the progress/ideal steel will require best ....woods . finicky stuff nothing like old fisher papa bears etc nothing....smoke pathways in these new stoves are very different lotsa parts to be disintegrated over time and use .. dont have best dried wood you be puttin reg. heat on my fisher could be setup to burn green wood easily not these guys.. why would ya want to do that ... stay warm .... Hoss never dried wood he he

 

[JA600L]

I actually think your better off with one of these stoves than many other epa certified stoves for burning less than dry wood.

I burn dry wood anyway, but when I have thrown in questionable wood it burnt clean.

 

[CO burner]

BK dealer in Monte Vista doesn't really want to mess with delivery and service 2 hours away. The March IS deal will keep $1500+ in my pocket. New stove will be ordered Monday. I'll report back in the fall with a direct comparison of the two. Thanks for the help and advice.

 

[JA600L]

You won't regret it ! Enjoy your savings!

Will you buy the plain version or "The works" ?

I would recommend the ash pan at least..

 

[CO burner]

With an ashpan and soapstone added, no reason not to get the works. Now I just need to get the wife to agree on a design. I was leaning towards kittens playing with yarn balls or unicorns pooping rainbows, but she's leaning towards the dragons or the trophy moose horns. Maybe we can both get what we want ... take it easy boys!

Now off to search three different forums to find some expert advice on the best way to build my ash rake. Hopefully I can find an answer in less than 85 pages.

(Sarcasm included for entertainment value only, not intended to personally offend.)

Thanks, I'll be back in the fall with a full first hand 30-NC vs Woodstock IS report from a softwood only burner (easy boys).

 

[Hoozie]

. The March IS deal will keep $1500+ in my pocket.

The what now?

And looking forward to your review comparing the two

 

[JA600L]

The what now?

And looking forward to your review comparing the two

Check the thread I started yesterday "Woodstock Promotion."