Unions

[SpaceBus]

Years ago either there were skilled tradesmen, apprentices, or laborers. If old enough and able, they got in and started learning, and kept learning. If one had a trade, he had an estate. If not, then it's a one room apartment somewhere with a dozen buddies in the same boat. Plenty of incentive to move out of mom and dads place and get on their own. I can think of many family members who struggled for a long time to "make it", on the "job" working at all hours. Who said we should feel so entitled to think it should be different now.

Isn't the whole point of this society we live in to make things easier and better? Why keep things difficult just because you had it tough? The wood stove was made so you'd have to spend less time working on a tedious and energy intensive task. Should we all suffer with open fireplaces because our ancestors had to do it?

 

[festerw]

Years ago either there were skilled tradesmen, apprentices, or laborers. If old enough and able, they got in and started learning, and kept learning. If one had a trade, he had an estate. If not, then it's a one room apartment somewhere with a dozen buddies in the same boat. Plenty of incentive to move out of mom and dads place and get on their own. I can think of many family members who struggled for a long time to "make it", on the "job" working at all hours. Who said we should feel so entitled to think it should be different now.

There still is in some industries and a lot of them are unionized. But have you ever met a tradesmen waiter or custodian? The service industry has changed dramatically in the last 50 years.

There's also a large gap between struggling and being an accident or illness (medical, work related, or other) away from being homeless.

 

[begreen]

Isn't the whole point of this society we live in to make things easier and better?

That qualification has a broad range of meanings depending on how one looks at it. Easier can be good and it can be bad if it leads to cheaper, more disposable solutions instead of well-crafted long-lasting ones. Easier can also lead to slovenliness. What do most folks do with more spare time? Some here do gardening etc., but most seem to watch tv, watch cat videos and argue on the internet. What is better? We garden even though it's much easier to just buy stuff. But this is our exercise and health program. It is more work but provides us with better quality food and hopefully health.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

When I was young and just starting out, college and just after, dollars were just trickling in. Bills still had to get paid.

I got a roommate.


I remember a friend in college had a roommate who literally rented the closet beneath their stairs for $50/mo. I thought it was an awesome idea, and he always had beer money.

 

[Ashful]

What the average classroom teacher earns in every Pa. public school district

The highest salaries were in two Pennsylvania counties: Bucks and Montgomery.

whyy.org

Hah... well there we go. I'm paying for it.

 

[begreen]

Hah... well there we go. I'm paying for it.

Sounds like your neighbors chose this, but I am not sure. Your implication appears to be that unions forced this. Is that so or is this a voter choice in your county?

 

[Ashful]

Sounds like your neighbors chose this, but I am not sure. Your implication appears to be that unions forced this. Is that so or is this a voter choice in your county?

I'll have to be honest and say I don't know all of the details, but I've lived thru numerous school strikes in our district, one that seemed to last for months. From the outside looking it, it looks like unions pushing the cause, and voters succombing to just wanting their kids back in school.

 

[begreen]

Strikes are a lot lower in my rural district, in spite of our teachers getting paid less, but we have had some big issues in our state too. Without understanding what the issues were that drove the long strike in your district it's hard to comment. Can you provide a link to info that really long strike? Was this connected with contracts expiring?

When I think of major, long teacher strikes I think of West Virginia last year and Kansas where they were quite justified.

 

[SpaceBus]

That qualification has a broad range of meanings depending on how one looks at it. Easier can be good and it can be bad if it leads to cheaper, more disposable solutions instead of well-crafted long-lasting ones. Easier can also lead to slovenliness. What do most folks do with more spare time? Some here do gardening etc., but most seem to watch tv, watch cat videos and argue on the internet. What is better? We garden even though it's much easier to just buy stuff. But this is our exercise and health program. It is more work but provides us with better quality food and hopefully health.

Of course it does, but in the context of the conversation I'm saying that we shouldn't have to work like slaves to survive. It's absurd to force people to work horrible jobs for such small amounts of money. Anyone should be able to live a happy life and provide for a family while working 40 hrs a week.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

It would be nice if everybody could have a cushy job and live comfortably, but it will never be that way. Each person has different abilities, both mentally and physically. These abilities or lack of abilities often help choose our path.

I've always found Forest Gump an awesome story. He wasnt bright, and was disabled, but through his spirit and never giving up, he kept coming out on top.

His is not a common story, but there are plenty of inspirational rags to riches story's around. When I was working in the banks I saw plenty of comfortable older folks who never made a big pay check, but they had the discipline to live below their means and save.

 

[SpaceBus]

It would be nice if everybody could have a cushy job and live comfortably, but it will never be that way. Each person has different abilities, both mentally and physically. These abilities or lack of abilities often help choose our path.

I've always found Forest Gump an awesome story. He wasnt bright, and was disabled, but through his spirit and never giving up, he kept coming out on top.

His is not a common story, but there are plenty of inspirational rags to riches story's around. When I was working in the banks I saw plenty of comfortable older folks who never made a big pay check, but they had the discipline to live below their means and save.

Those old folks also had a stronger economy and a much different life thank folks have now. The wealth holders in this country could stand to lose a few tenths of a percent in profit to pay their employees a living wage. I don't think it's asking for much for a human to be able to pursue happiness with 40 hrs a week of labor. Wages have been stagnant or declining for years. It's absolutely possible for everyone to live comfortably, but the 1% doesn't want to lose any power or wealth to make that happen. There are even enough vacant bank owned homes all over the country to house every single homeless person. But that would mean someone got a free house and someone that worked for it didn't. That part is why we can't have universal living conditions or a decent wage.

Edit: also, the real life statistic is that very few entrepreneurs become wealthy from rags. So while the Forrest Gump story is the quintessential American dream, that dream is actually a nightmare. It's extremely hard to leave your social class in this country if you are 100% able bodied, much less disabled.

 

[Ashful]

It's absurd to force people to work horrible jobs for such small amounts of money.

This is one of the few countries in the entire history of world governments, that has never forced any citizen to work a horrible job. Learn your history.

Those old folks also had a stronger economy...

Holy crap, where to even start? Anyone in their 80’s today was born during the great depression, and lived thru WW2. The 1970’s were horrendous for anyone in manufacturing, followed by 1980’s stagflation and 19% mortgages, during all of which the average blue collar got a lot poorer. It’s awful tough to raise a family and pay that 19% mortgage in 1984, when your manufacturing plant laid off all the workers in 1976. Don’t try to argue that the economy was doing these folks any great favor, during those years. By comparison, our economy is doing fantastic the last three years.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

In Dec of 99 I signed the papers and put down money on my 1st house. My rate was 9.5% on a 30 fixed.

I wish rates were as low as they are now!


I know plenty of people who grew up with nothing and now do quite well. My wife's family left Vietnam after Saigon fell, spent a year in Malaysia as refugees, then split up between here, Australia. And Canada.

They are all very hard working, disciplined, and doing well. Well, except for her brother who got his law degree, practiced for a bit, then went back to school to be a Dr. He's more than a bit useless, but every family has one of them.

That family isn't an outlier. Many immigrant families do this facing incredible odds.

There's an eastern European guy that owns a gas station that I often fill up at. He's always there. I've never seen an employee. I asked him if he ever gets a day off. He said no, he has to be at the station. His family will do just fine.

I'm not going to say it's easy to climb out of poverty, but far from impossible and much easier here than elsewhere in the world.

 

[SpaceBus]

Believe what you want to believe, but 50,000 UAW workers, thousands of nurses, and thousands more all over the world aren't on strike for nothing.

By the way, everyone is forced to work, because it's illegal to be homeless. If you don't want to pay a mortgage and work a job, you are considered an illegal. Nobody asked to be born into this world, but you damn well better pay!

 

[EatenByLimestone]

40 hour work week! Pfft, what is that? I dont know a single entrepreneur who only worked 40 hrs a week while building the business.

Maybe they can cut back when they have enough other people working for them.

 

[Ashful]

In Dec of 99 I signed the papers and put down money on my 1st house. My rate was 9.5% on a 30 fixed.

Why so high? I did 30 year fixed at 6.625% in 1998 and 5.000% for 15 year fixed in 2005. I may be misremembering, but I thought rates were running 6.00 - 6.25% all thru 1999.

I think my present rate is 1.875% on 15 year fixed.

40 hour work week! Pfft, what is that? I dont know a single entrepreneur who only worked 40 hrs a week while building the business.

Exactly. Lazy folks can sit around and malign the wealthy, but this is what it often takes. I averaged roughly 65 hours per week thru my 20’s, and above 50 hours per week in my 30’s. Anyone lobbying for a 40 hour work week at that age is not aiming very high, in their ambition.

 

[johneh]

The only thing I ever got from a Union was the loss of my Job
because the UNION asked for more than the Business could pay
Will never work in a Union Shop again

 

[begreen]

40 hour work week! Pfft, what is that? I dont know a single entrepreneur who only worked 40 hrs a week while building the business.

Who is talking about entrepreneurs? That is what? one in a hundred or thousand? This ignores most of the working class. It's kind of condescending don't you think? Most of what we enjoy is on the backs of these people. You know, the ones that deliver the groceries and mail and keep the shelves stocked? The ones that make the tools we use in our shops and build the cars we drive. The ones that care for the ill and infirmed. These people have families and often put them first above all else including material values.

FWIW, I worked with a team of 20+ engineers. We made a conscious effort to work smarter so that we didn't have to work nights and weekends and could have more family time. And it worked in spite of tight deadlines and external pressures.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Who is talking about entrepreneurs?

I think the point EBL is trying to make is sometimes the working class can better their situation by putting in some overtime vs walking a picket line, especially if they have no other skill to offer than assembly line work. I consider myself an entrepreneur as well as non college degree working class ,even though ill never make the kind of money most members here enjoy, having the skill of spending it well and living a better life than average which is the other half of the income equation. Plus you appear to be making the argument that people should be paid more because they have families or other obligations which is irrelevant to what they should be paid.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Why so high? I did 30 year fixed at 6.625% in 1998 and 5.000% for 15 year fixed in 2005.



I think that's what rates were running at that time? I had good credit, but might have been in a higher risk class. 6 months out of college, making beans. Really small beans.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Who is talking about entrepreneurs? That is what? one in a hundred or thousand? This ignores most of the working class. It's kind of condescending don't you think? Most of what we enjoy is on the backs of these people. You know, the ones that deliver the groceries and mail and keep the shelves stocked? The ones that make the tools we use in our shops and build the cars we drive. The ones that care for the ill and infirmed. These people have families and often put them first above all else including material values.

FWIW, I worked with a team of 20+ engineers. We made a conscious effort to work smarter so that we didn't have to work nights and weekends and could have more family time. And it worked in spite of tight deadlines and external pressures.

I thought I'd read it above somewhere. Oops.

I think there are more entrepreneurs than we think. A teenager mowing a lawn is an entrepreneur. A guy selling an extra cord of wood here and there is. I used to do services on fish tanks before I ever thought of starting a business.

The biggest thing the guys who have small operations going for them is lack of overhead. Once you have a separate office, employees, consider advertising, etc, overhead starts to shoot up.

 

[begreen]

I think the point EBL is trying to make is sometimes the working class can better their situation by putting in some overtime vs walking a picket line, especially if they have no other skill to offer than assembly line work. I consider myself an entrepreneur as well as non college degree working class ,even though ill never make the kind of money most members here enjoy, having the skill of spending it well and living a better life than average which is the other half of the income equation. Plus you appear to be making the argument that people should be paid more because they have families or other obligations which is irrelevant to what they should be paid.

Folks don't like going on strike, especially if they are not paid. It's not fun to have to strike standing out in all sorts of weather. If people don't earn enough to live and pay rent then they will be forced to move. That happened in CT where we lived. Young people moved on. Now the restaurants and stores are boarded up and everyone has to travel elsewhere to eat, shop, etc..

Given the broad definition of an entrepreneur, I can agree that there may be more than one out of 100. INC. says there are about 27 million in the US which surprised me. Apparently this is a record high for the US. I had a paper route and my own business for a while. I also know a lot of people that took steady jobs right out of college. Eventually, I took a corporate job both because of the great people I got to work with, and also because I had a child with a serious medical condition and needed stability in health care plus education costs. Predictability when one has a high mortgage and raising a family can be a good thing.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

So they were making enough to live, then were forced to go on strike. Had to move. Now the town had to close all the shops? Way to go union!
In college I worked at UPS. The Teamsters forced a strike. I never went back either.

 

[begreen]

So they were making enough to live, then were forced to go on strike. Had to move. Now the town had to close all the shops? Way to go union!
In college I worked at UPS. The Teamsters forced a strike. I never went back either.

No, the local work was not union. Local jobs just paid poorly. I guess some moved to union jobs in areas with more population and factories. Not an uncommon story for rural areas.

 

[begreen]

The implication here seems to be that there is no case for unions. History demonstrates there is a need for empowering the individual in an exploitive system. All companies and bosses are not enlightened wonderful caring people. There are some that will drive people beyond reasonable means until they are burned out and then discard them for a fresh crop. This has been going on for the history of humanity and certainly since capitalism started. Unions form because of a need. They have been responsible for getting child, safety, and labor laws passed so that now unions are less necessary. With these laws, the exploitive nature of man would return to squeeze every ounce out of its workers. We have seen this time and again. Only now it is in some third world country that has much more lax labor laws. As Adam Smith pointed out, humans are selfish, greedy animals.

This doesn't mean that there are not great employers in the country. Quite the contrary, they outnumber the bad ones. Most of the time there is no need for unions. But when a company or industry puts profit far above human life and dignity then something needs to change. Unions empower the individual to have a larger voice which is necessary sometimes to correct wrongs.