Unions

[pjohnson]

Why do the ones that sit at a desk have the perception that union workers are lazy and unproductive. I've worked at both union and non union large companies 50,000 plus employees and there are plenty of hard working union people. If the companies treated their employees the way they treat their executives there would be no need for unions. Do you really think you would have 40 hour work weeks, weeks of vacation, sick time, holiday pay, pensions, 401k, medical insurance if someone hadn't fought for it.? Why do so many think they are the only one that should be paid a decent wage the rest should make minimum wage? Do you really think an engineer or painter or plumber would make 100K if everyone else made minimum wage?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

It's the lazy and unproductive union members that give the rest a bad name.

As far as benefits go, yeah, I think they'd exist without unions.

Capitalism would bring them about. I want the best, most productive employees. Sick, burnt out and over stressed people are more likely to get injured. Guess what happens to productivity when a highly skilled employee quits or gets injured? Benefits make them healthier, happier and more profitable.

 

[begreen]

That is an enlightened approach, not always reality. It's why all those women died in the Triangle Shirtwaist fire. The profit comes first. There are always those out there that don't give a damn about employees and will squeeze the life out of them. This is particularly true with immigrants and in areas where there is only one factory/mine/plant to work in. These same employers often do the same at exploiting the environment regardless of damage.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

It doesn't work as well in low/no skilled jobs, but it does work.

Burger flipping, there are guys out there who have figured out how to do it better than the others. Maybe he/she can run a grill with 1.5x the burgers the average person can. That person should be better compensated than an average burger flipper since they make it possible for you not to hire on another person. If the average flipper makes $8, that person is worth $11.

Find somebody that can do it well, take care of them, and you're more profitable. Capitalism in it's purest form.

The problem comes in when you have somebody else setting a minimum pay rate across the board. Burger flippers now need to make $15. You used to run 3 average flippers for the cost to run 2 now. Can you raise the price of your burgers 50% to cover the new expense? The star flipper might be worth 15, but the pimple faced kid that can't figure out how to not set his shirt sleeves on fire and picks his nose at the grill... He isn't. He's going to be let go, and if another star can't be found, mechanization and automation is going to come around. With capitalism, somebody will figure out how to make it work without people. Wages just have to rise to the point that the breakeven point is within an acceptable time period.

 

[Ashful]

Why do the ones that sit at a desk have the perception that union workers are lazy and unproductive.

I don’t think I ever said or implied that, I certainly didn’t mean to if I did. My issue is solely the act of collusion with your co-workers to hold your employer hostage for above market value wages and benefits, not any implication that union workers are any more or less lazy than a non-union worker. Stand on your own two feet, earn what your skills and experience are truly worth, or find a way to increase your worth. Pretty basic.

Also, don’t assume my criticism is primarily aimed at factory workers, I could actually understand the legitimacy of a union in some such settings, even if their role in creating safe working conditions is less than it was in the past. My primary gripe is professional unions, like those folks who work 9 months per year, have more holidays in those nine months than any other profession sees in a full year, gets the entire summer off, and continues to collude against the taxpayer for six-figure salaries.

 

[Sawset]

the act of collusion with your co-workers to hold your employer hostage for above market value wages and benefits

I've never worked in a union. The market here determines pay scales, work times, benefits etc.
The vast majority of American workers also don't work in unions.
Why would I support unions or union workers for any reason simply because of the above quote.
Unions - "less work more pay"
Ok, here you go, higher pay, benefits, vacation, the works. Happy?
Unions - "less work more pay"
Ok, here you go, ------
Unions - "less work more pay"
Ok, get the hell out of here, we're shutting it all down. Examples are everywhere.

 

[saewoody]

I don’t think I ever said or implied that, I certainly didn’t mean to if I did. My issue is solely the act of collusion with your co-workers to hold your employer hostage for above market value wages and benefits, not any implication that union workers are any more or less lazy than a non-union worker. Stand on your own two feet, earn what your skills and experience are truly worth, or find a way to increase your worth. Pretty basic.

Also, don’t assume my criticism is primarily aimed at factory workers, I could actually understand the legitimacy of a union in some such settings, even if their role in creating safe working conditions is less than it was in the past. My primary gripe is professional unions, like those folks who work 9 months per year, have more holidays in those nine months than any other profession sees in a full year, gets the entire summer off, and continues to collude against the taxpayer for six-figure salaries.

I only hope I will make six figures at some point! I have been teaching since 2001 and my first job paid a $29,500 salary. Yes, I make much more than that now, but not very close to six figures. I have plenty of complaints about the teacher’s union too; they seem to do more to protect the problem teacher than the excellent teacher. But for all the capitalist philosophers here, how do you measure the true “productivity” of the teacher and then compensate them fairly for it? One of the courses I’ve been teaching for almost 15 years is Economics and I still don’t have an answer to the question. Like anything in life, we don’t really always know something for sure until we walk in someone else’s shoes.


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[Highbeam]

Why do the ones that sit at a desk have the perception that union workers are lazy and unproductive. I've worked at both union and non union large companies 50,000 plus employees and there are plenty of hard working union people. If the companies treated their employees the way they treat their executives there would be no need for unions.

Just to be clear, not all of us that sit at desks are highly paid executives and many desk sitters are in unions. Plenty of white collar folks that fall in the middle between labor and executive. I've also never been in a union, never been on strike, but I do believe that I've benefited from the fights won by unions.

My primary gripe is professional unions, like those folks who work 9 months per year, have more holidays in those nine months than any other profession sees in a full year, gets the entire summer off, and continues to collude against the taxpayer for six-figure salaries.

I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about here. I agree. But.... the children!

 

[Ashful]

how do you measure the true “productivity” of the teacher and then compensate them fairly for it?

I understand the point you’re making, but there are many metrics by which an employer (the school board) can gauge their employee (the teacher), including but not limited to standardized testing scores, peer and supervisory reviews, and many of the other mechanisms used to gauge the performance of any other professional.

As to the salary issue, the late-career teachers in my district make $88k - $97k. Given their 185 working days in our state, to the average 236 days of a salaried employee, their monthly rate is equivalent to $112k - $124k for a full-time worker.

 

[bholler]

I understand the point you’re making, but there are many metrics by which an employer (the school board) can gauge their employee (the teacher), including but not limited to standardized testing scores, peer and supervisory reviews, and many of the other mechanisms used to gauge the performance of any other professional.

As to the salary issue, the late-career teachers in my district make $88k - $97k. Given their 185 working days in our state, to the average 236 days of a salaried employee, their monthly rate is equivalent to $112k - $124k for a full-time worker.

So you say people should better themselves so they can get better jobs. That makes sense. But then you complain that the very people that are there to help kids do that are over paid. That doesn't make sense. And do you have any idea how many hours good teachers put in over that time they work? How many days in addition to that 236 they spend in continuing education?

 

[SpaceBus]

Why should we expect people to work 40 hours a week to build the cars we drive if they aren't paid a living wage? This might lead to a serious labor reform. You can't expect everyone to "get a better job" or whatever, who will be left to build the things the tradesmen repair?

 

[SpaceBus]

So you say people should better themselves so they can get better jobs. That makes sense. But then you complain that the very people that are there to help kids do that are over paid. That doesn't make sense. And do you have any idea how many hours good teachers put in over that time they work? How many days in addition to that 236 they spend in continuing education?

Not to mention most spend their own money to get classroom supplies, teaching aids, etc. Teachers are hardly compensated for dedicating their time to do something most parents refuse to do for any amount of money.

 

[bholler]

I don’t think I ever said or implied that, I certainly didn’t mean to if I did. My issue is solely the act of collusion with your co-workers to hold your employer hostage for above market value wages and benefits, not any implication that union workers are any more or less lazy than a non-union worker. Stand on your own two feet, earn what your skills and experience are truly worth, or find a way to increase your worth. Pretty basic.

Also, don’t assume my criticism is primarily aimed at factory workers, I could actually understand the legitimacy of a union in some such settings, even if their role in creating safe working conditions is less than it was in the past. My primary gripe is professional unions, like those folks who work 9 months per year, have more holidays in those nine months than any other profession sees in a full year, gets the entire summer off, and continues to collude against the taxpayer for six-figure salaries.

Who says unions get paid over market value??? What makes you think what they are getting paid isn't market value and what nonunion people get paid is sub market value?

You have clearly never worked in a factory or even as office staff for a large corporation. Most don't get paid what their skills are worth. Most don't get merit based wages. You either do your job and get set anual wages or you don't do your job and get fired. In most cases it doesn't matter if you do that job really well or if you are just competent.

 

[begreen]

As to the salary issue, the late-career teachers in my district make $88k - $97k. Given their 185 working days in our state, to the average 236 days of a salaried employee, their monthly rate is equivalent to $112k - $124k for a full-time worker.

Is this Buck's county? If so, that's atypical. Is it much more expensive to live in that county? Have the voters chosen to pay teachers more there because they want to attract the cream of the crop and want more specialty and advanced classes?

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Not to mention most spend their own money to get classroom supplies, teaching aids, etc. Teachers are hardly compensated for dedicating their time to do something most parents refuse to do for any amount of money.

Teachers are not the problem in this area, its the 15, 6 figure administrators they dont need for such a small town that sucks all the oxygen out of the budget. The teachers are low on the totem pole and start at around $15 an hour. (low 30s annually) About the same amount the unskilled burger flippers want. Our teachers are definitely underpaid by those standards

 

[Seasoned Oak]

The big problem with wages in america is we also have to compete on a global scale with many countrys that operate at a much lower pay scale. Unless the disparity is corrected at the border with tarriffs or some other mechanism those (Mfg)jobs may be outsourced to foreign low wage countries. As we have seen for the last few decades. The old UAW sent their share of plants out of the country. Or to southern states.

 

[Ashful]

So you say people should better themselves so they can get better jobs. That makes sense. But then you complain that the very people that are there to help kids do that are over paid. That doesn't make sense. And do you have any idea how many hours good teachers put in over that time they work? How many days in addition to that 236 they spend in continuing education?

Continuing education is part of many professional careers, nothing unique there. And just like any profession, a few really work very hard. Most I have known are not pulling any miraculous hours, no where near average for my own profession. I have several friends who are teachers, one who is a principle.

And getting out of the factory has nothing to do with your third grade teacher being unionized or tenured. In fact, I'd argue there's more likely to be a reverse relationship between the tenure leveraged by UNIONS, and quality of education!

You have clearly never worked in a factory or even as office staff for a large corporation.

I have spent the last 25 years solely working in factories, it is what I do for a living. I have worked for both large and small corporations. My first factory job earned me $7.50 per hour as an assembler, and the second was salaried as a technician at $40k per year. I worked up from there, going to school at night while I worked full time. I spent a decade and a half in school, getting two degrees, working full-time thru more than ten of those years. That’s not to toot my own horn, I had it easier than some of my classmates, I’m just saying that not everyone with an education got there the easy way.

Is this Buck's county? If so, that's atypical. Is it much more expensive to live in that county? Have the voters chosen to pay teachers more there because they want to attract the cream of the crop and want more specialty and advanced classes?

I averaged a few districts in the Philly burbs, including Bucks. I don't really care what a teacher makes in Alabama or Washington, they're not paying my school taxes. I tried to Google for median household income in my township and zip code, but got wildly conflicting data, so I'm not sure exactly how we compare to other areas. Surely higher than the midwest or Maine, but also surely lower than coastal mid-Atlantic (NJ, NY, MD, DE), most of New England, or the west coast.

But all of this picking at nits is getting a little afar of the original point. Why does anyone worth their salt need to collude with their coworkers, or even workers of another company, to extort higher wages from their employer? If we want to open up the subject farther, I'd suggest tenure would be the next item of discussion, not my personal work history or local economics.

 

[festerw]

Here's the issue as I see it. The service industry has grown to the largest sector of employment, high skill service is easy to figure out, education, experience, etc. Low skill service is hard, not many places will pay wait staff substantially more for 10 years of experience vs walking in the door, same goes for janitors, landscapers, etc.

Adjusted for inflation the minimum wage is less now than it was in 1968 when it peaked. Adjusted it would be 11.80/hr.

At current minimum you'll have a salary of 15,080/year, the cheapest apartment in my area will run you 4800/year, health insurance average is 5000 for a single, average food cost is 3000/year, average utilities are $2000/year. After all that you have roughly $300 left over for the year, before taxes.

So is it fair that maybe somebody likes showing up for work everyday waiting tables, mowing lawns, or cleaning has to work 2 or 3 jobs just to survive?

Yea I know "they can get more education and get a better job" but if they LIKE their job why should they HAVE TO and take a crap shoot on moving into a job they don't like just to get more money?

Long story short if the unions can get a major foothold like they used to have and force wages to go higher for everyone why is that a bad thing? I'll also say that if some employers treated their employees well they wouldn't have to worry about them unionizing, happy employees are more productive than unhappy every day of the week.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

. I read the strike is mostly about temp workers.

Out of roughly 3,600 employees at the Tennessee plant, around 200 are temporary,

 

[lsucet]

So you say people should better themselves so they can get better jobs. That makes sense. But then you complain that the very people that are there to help kids do that are over paid. That doesn't make sense. And do you have any idea how many hours good teachers put in over that time they work? How many days in addition to that 236 they spend in continuing education?

Many schools now a days are just like daycares. Not all the teachers go the extra mile like you can think. Their answer to kids questions are: Google it. They just send kids home with assignments and they have to do their own research plus us, the parents, dedicate time to teach them like we are the teachers. Things have been changing a lot over the years. I can go all day and tell you many reason why I think they are over paid but let's leave it at that. I always paid and still for everything my three kids need.

 

[Ashful]

Many schools now a days are just like daycares. Not all the teachers go the extra mile like you can think. They answer to kids questions are: Google it.

I’m sure this happens, but I suspect this is rare. My kids teachers and school have been mostly great. But I still don’t understand why they need to be unionized, or why an elementary school teacher needs the protection of tenure.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Skilled professions(non union) in a free market mostly seem to set their own level . The hard part is trying to figure out what is a fair wage for the unskilled . I keep hearing "how can people support a family on minimum wage"? The simple answer is ,you cant! Its going to be a big problem going forward as automation takes many of those jobs.

 

[Sawset]

The hard part is trying to figure out what is a fair wage for the unskilled . I keep hearing "how can people support a family on minimum wage"? The simple answer is ,you cant!

Years ago either there were skilled tradesmen, apprentices, or laborers. If old enough and able, they got in and started learning, and kept learning. If one had a trade, he had an estate. If not, then it's a one room apartment somewhere with a dozen buddies in the same boat. Plenty of incentive to move out of mom and dads place and get on their own. I can think of many family members who struggled for a long time to "make it", on the "job" working at all hours. Who said we should feel so entitled to think it should be different now.

 

[bholler]

Many schools now a days are just like daycares. Not all the teachers go the extra mile like you can think. Their answer to kids questions are: Google it. They just send kids home with assignments and they have to do their own research plus us, the parents, dedicate time to teach them like we are the teachers. Things have been changing a lot over the years. I can go all day and tell you many reason why I think they are over paid but let's leave it at that. I always paid and still for everything my three kids need.

That depends on the school district. There are ones in our area that are like that and ones like ours where the majority of teachers are pretty good. And guess which ones pay more?

 

[begreen]

That depends on the school district. There are ones in our area that are like that and ones like ours where the majority of teachers are pretty good. And guess which ones pay more?

What the average classroom teacher earns in every Pa. public school district

The highest salaries were in two Pennsylvania counties: Bucks and Montgomery.

whyy.org