Thinking about an insert

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

I got the rack at homedepot.com $40 but they discontinued it, last time I checked the cheapest one for that size was $60... I would have gotten more if I knew they were going to do that.....
The fastest way to dry wood is to not cut it wide, stack it in a single row loosely in a spot that gets alot of sun and wind...

 

[smokedragon]

But once you realize that an oil furnace combustion chamber can get to 2,600 degrees and you will run your wood stove around five or six hundred degrees it gets easier. Or gets harder to sleep when the furnace is running...

On really cold nights when my furnace has to kick on, it will wake me up

Having an insert myself, you get so used to the fan running that if someone cuts it off (and you don't know they are going to) it will concern you. It really is like folks who sleep with white noise going......after a while you fee weird if you don't hear it. Especially when the bills come

I have a split foyer, and I run NO FAN. There is a large family room down stairs and a smaller play room at the top of the stairs. My family spends every evening in one or the other. If my family room is 80 degrees (stove room), the room directly up the stairs is between 72 and 74 (depending on how cold it is outside). If we want it a little warmer, we move downstairs. If we are too hot, we move upstairs.

I had this same decision as you, stove upstairs or down......I chose downstairs and I am very grateful for the chimney sweep who talked me into that.

I burned 4 cord this year (that would be 12 of the piles that ram1500 posted pictures of) so far, and carrying that up stairs and through multiple spaces will get old very quick. I have a level entry from the back of the house and modified a cart from harbor freight with electric conduit bent into big U's. I can stack wood 4 feet wide and 5 feet tall on that cart and roll it in next to my insert. That is a lot of wood to carry upstairs.

We do occasionally sit a box fan outside the play room at the top of the steps (pointed towards the bedrooms) because the heat doesn't travel down there readily. You said you were really looking more to supplement with this stove, so that shouldn't even be an issue.

When you are up and moving (cooking dinner, etc) the stove would get that area too hot if it were upstairs.

When you get to the end of the day and want to just sit and vegetate, go downstairs to sit by your insert. You will not be sorry.

 

[Hogwildz]

If it was me, I would be putting an insert downstairs for sure.
A stove where that fake one is, is going to stick out farther, and eat up space in that room.
You will also need put a hearth pad down or cut out the rug and put a permanent proper base for the stove.
Just my opinion, but the lower level looks nicer and more cozy.

The heated air will travel much easier upward than it will downward also. Some more benefit and heated area with the lower level install.

 

[8686]

So a majority of you are favoring the insert downstairs. Can anyone recommend a particular insert?

I posted the dimensions. Im looking for the biggest window possible. And then i was researching catalyst vs non catalyst. Or is that only a stove?

Is there something i should definitely look for or avoid in an insert?

Thanks guys. Huge help.

 

[smokedragon]

Can anyone recommend a particular insert?

The biggest one that you can fit and that your budget will allow

It really depends on a few things

Are you willing to reline your chimney with an 8" liner (and will it even fit), or would you stick with the standard 6" liner? Do you really want this to be your 24/7 heat, or just to supplement and knock the chill off? What is the actual square footage of your home, and what kind of insulation and windows do you have?

There are many small inserts that you can put into that box very easily, that will make a very pretty fire for 3 - 5 hours.



The height of your fireplace will be your limiting factor, so that will really throw a few stoves out of the running.

Let me know those things and I will send you some info. I have a huge list of inserts from my own search

 

[mstoelton]

If your fireplace opening is large enough, the hearthstone Clydesdale has a large window and a nice sized fire box.

It is not cheap, but you might find it on sale somewhere for ~$2500 plus the stainless chimney. You will also need to determine if your existing chimney can handle an insulated flue pipe.

 

[8686]

Are you willing to reline your chimney with an 8" liner (and will it even fit), or would you stick with the standard 6" liner?
I thought I would have to reline it? No? What's the difference between the 6" and the 8" (besides 2 inches)?
Do you really want this to be your 24/7 heat, or just to supplement and knock the chill off?
Supplement.
What is the actual square footage of your home,
2000 sq ft. 1000 per floor.
and what kind of insulation and windows do you have?
They are new vinyl, however they are installed (prev homeowner) poorly. It seems as though the installer forgot to put insulation around it. There are a lot of drafts coming from doors and windows.

There are many small inserts that you can put into that box very easily, that will make a very pretty fire for 3 - 5 hours.
I really don't want to lose the view of the fire. So the bigger the box the longer your heat duration? That makes sense since you can stuff more wood into it.



The height of your fireplace will be your limiting factor, so that will really throw a few stoves out of the running.
Is mine fireplace opening short?

Let me know those things and I will send you some info. I have a huge list of inserts from my own search

Thanks buddy Click the "click to expand" above.

 

[8686]

Whatever you do, don't get an insert with no fan, worst case you don't have to turn it on.... I use mine all the time on low... Here is a pic of mine, it has large glass area... All my wood is free, don't worry about the electric....View attachment 128978

What insert is that? I like the big glass window.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

What insert is that? I like the big glass window.

Well you said you don't like using electricity.....

 

[8686]

Well you said you don't like using electricity.....

i dont get it...

 

[begreen]

What insert is that? I like the big glass window.

Vermont Castings Montpelier

 

[smokedragon]

Are you willing to reline your chimney with an 8" liner (and will it even fit), or would you stick with the standard 6" liner?
I thought I would have to reline it? No? What's the difference between the 6" and the 8" (besides 2 inches)?

Some people install stoves/inserts in masonry chimneys without a liner (you just run the stove pipe into the existing clay flue). I am not a fan of this, as most masonry chimneys have some deterioration. I would suggest a liner, and a few places mandate it (depends on local and state codes). It is not required in NC, but I have a 25' tall insulated 6" liner. You could have a certified professional (chimney sweep) inspect your masonry chimney. Liners add a decent amount to the cost of an install.

The difference is how much volume can be evacuated per minute. The largest stoves on the market (that will give you long burn times on the lowest setting) use an 8 inch flue collar.....this is because at their highest setting that big firebox is needing to move a lot of burn by-products.

6" is standard, and found in all of the small - medium stoves and inserts, and many of the larger ones. You could get away with a 6" liner and a larger stove/insert with what you have described (but others feel free to chime in).

Do you really want this to be your 24/7 heat, or just to supplement and knock the chill off?
Supplement.

If you are just supplementing, a smaller stove will work. You run it wide open when you are there (nights/weekends) and set it to run on a low burn overnight. Even if it burns out while you are asleep, it will save your heat 3 - 5 hours of running at night. Because you are interested in supplementing, I would try to find a lower price insert (even if it is on the small side, or used). It will let you know if you are interested in burning 24/7 without as much investment.
What is the actual square footage of your home,
2000 sq ft. 1000 per floor.
and what kind of insulation and windows do you have?
They are new vinyl, however they are installed (prev homeowner) poorly. It seems as though the installer forgot to put insulation around it. There are a lot of drafts coming from doors and windows.

Drafty windows/doors and a poorly insulated attic cause you to need more heat (both from a woodstove, and from a furnace). My house was built in 62 and we went from an R12 attic to R48 the first year we lived here. My house still has single pane windows, but they have been caulked and painted around so that there is no "draft" coming from them. Amazingly, they seal very tightly for old wooden windows. We weather sealed around all the doors, etc. The more of that you do, the less stove you need to heat the house (and the less your furnace runs).

There are many small inserts that you can put into that box very easily, that will make a very pretty fire for 3 - 5 hours.
I really don't want to lose the view of the fire. So the bigger the box the longer your heat duration? That makes sense since you can stuff more wood into it.

Correct to a certain extent.....some stoves burn better/longer at a low draft setting (or another way to say it is that they will allow you to restrict the air to the fire more) causing longer burn times. But if you are comparing two similar stoves, bigger firebox generally means longer burn time.

Almost any EPA certified stove/insert has a glass viewing window. Unless you buy an older "non-certified" stove (which tend to be referred to as smoke dragons), you will have a view of the fire.


The height of your fireplace will be your limiting factor, so that will really throw a few stoves out of the running.
Is mine fireplace opening short?

Your fireplace is fairly short......over half of the inserts on the market were made to clear your fireplace opening.....but some of the largest ones (that would be for 24/7 heating) would be too tall. To put it in perspective, my fireplace is 31.25 inches high (and 44 inches wide), I could actually fit a decent number of free standing stoves into mine.......


Let me know those things and I will send you some info. I have a huge list of inserts from my own search

Expand to see the answers to the best of my ability

 

[8686]

do you guys get a little worried about breathing in all that toxic crap from your stove/insert? Apparently there is a lot of info online about how we are all breathing in soot and wood particles that we absorb into our lungs. Are they talking about older stoves? Do most newer stoves have some sort of filter?

 

[BrotherBart]

do you guys get a little worried about breathing in all that toxic crap from your stove/insert?

No.

 

[bholler]

you will get very little in you house from the stove. When you clean you can get some just use a good vac and a respirator if you are worried

 

[smokedragon]

do you guys get a little worried about breathing in all that toxic crap from your stove/insert? No


Apparently there is a lot of info online about how we are all breathing in soot and wood particles that we absorb into our lungs. If you stick your head in the door while you are cleaning it maybe


Are they talking about older stoves? Do most newer stoves have some sort of filter? It's called the door, once you open it, ash/smoke can get into your house

It is like anything else, if you aren't exposed to some dirt/bacteria, you become intolerant of it.

My $0.02

 

[CaptSpiff]

do you guys get a little worried about breathing in all that toxic crap from your stove/insert? Apparently there is a lot of info online about how we are all breathing in soot and wood particles that we absorb into our lungs. Are they talking about older stoves? Do most newer stoves have some sort of filter?

That's a funny question considering the open FP you're now running (from your pictures). The sealed units (stove or insert) will improve your "inside" air (smell) significantly; outside may be a different story.

Observation: This thread may become a must read for newbies, lots of great General Info so far. And pictures,... I like pictures.

For the OP: I too use NG primary on LI. We pay about $1.60/therm (100K btu) which is a bargain against the compeating alternatives. Our Oil#2 costs us $3 to 4/gal (140K BTU) and electric is highest in nation at $0.23/kwh. I don't even know what that electric equates to on a 100k btu basis. Anytime I can suppliment with some cord wood I'm saving money, and I like having an alternative heat source if I ever have a winter time boiler breakdown.

From my perspective your choices are all good ones; here's my take:

A. insert into FP.
You both get to watch the fire. The burns are 3-5 hours, or maybe 6-7 turned down low. You carry wood down the stairs instead of up. The "mess" stays downstairs. You bring in 24hr wood supply inside the day before so it has extra time to dry out inside. You accept the "mess". She accepts the "mess", as long as you keep it tidy. You keep the boiler t-stat at 67 upstairs and downstairs, the insert keeps downstairs at 80 and upstairs at 70. The buy in is $2500-3500 for the insert, and $1000-1500 for the insulated SS 6" liner. The risk is cord wood storage. Any wood delivered after June will not be enough seasoned to burn that winter (no matter what the seller says or calls it), so do you have enough space for 2 seasons worth of wood storage?

B. Pellet stove upstairs.
Placed where your fake (electric) stove sits. You get to watch the fire, but it's not that pretty. Pellet stove uses 24" horizontal straight out 3" vent. Stove has small rear clearance and most have cool sides for safety (you will only need a small hearth pad). Burn times are 20-24 hours, most are thermostat controlled. Reloading is like handling a bag of dog food, and no more messy. Since you'll burn about a 40 lb bag a day you can keep a weeks worth downstairs. Did I mention that there's hardly any mess? The risk is Pellet Bag shortages. The shortage this winter seperated the prepared from the zombies. Zombies being the ones driving from Lowes to HD to Agway to their "secret supplier" searching for rations of Soylent Green. The prepared bought enough 1-ton pallets of pellets in the summer ($200 each) for use that winter. The pallets of bags need to be kept dry. That means in the garage, or well covered. Do you have room for that?

C. Gas insert into the FP.
I would only do that if you are tired of the "Mess" involved in burning cord wood. There are many Natural Gas insets with very realistic flame patterns. And the heating ability is typically 35K BTU, with a turn down of 50%, for use in warmer seasons. Did I mention the wireless remote controls?

Like I state up above, because you already heat with a "cheap" source (Natural Gas), you don't need to rush into a decision and all your choices are good ones. You have time to look around at the 1/2 dozen or so Hearth Stores within Suffolk County, get some estimates, and by next winter you'll be toasty.

 

[DodgyNomad]

On my insert, because it went in to the fireplace this did not effect my home owners insurance rate.

This. I'd think an insert, with a fan would do you fine. Heat will rise to the upstairs, and you won't notice the little bit of electrical usage.
I have a blaze king princess insert and love it. Center of the house, works great.

 

[KB007]

I'd tend to an insert downstairs in your situation.

Pros:
Keeps the mess downstairs
A good amount of heat will rise (it'll take a while, but it will happen) you could open up a couple of registers to help (read local building codes please)
A big insert will heat that room to well into the 80s and you may find that uncomfortable, so the temp upstairs will probably be more high 60s low 70s - our insert is in our upstairs LR, but I love wearing shorts and T shirts indoors in the Canadian Winter.
If you have easy access to your wood supply thru a downstairs door, even better
Less costly than stand alone stove - insert, liner and installation/certification (if you need). Our Regency I3100 cost me 2800 installed/certified.

Cons:
have to be downstairs to watch the flames- we ran our downstairs stove for a couple of winters before the insert. We found we just started spending more time down there. I even moved my office table down there and worked there. Luckily our basement has a walkout and huge 12ft wide window to pass the time.
You will have to be more diligent in making sure the fire doesn't run away on you, the tendency will be to load it, go back upstairs and forget that you loaded it an hour ago. Run back downstairs and the fire is off the charts hot. If you go with the insert downstairs, make sure you install a simple thermometer (with an alarm) like this one http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17&products_id=292 and you'll be better prepared to catch any runaway fires from destroying your shiny new insert.

Start checking the MFG websites for insert dimensions, you can prolly figure out what's going to fit and what won't.

Go as big as possible on the firebox size. Bigger is better.

I'd suggest finding a reputable dealer and having a chat - bring pics and dimensions and they may have some suggestions.

 

[smokedragon]

electric is highest in nation at $0.23/kwh. I don't even know what that electric equates to on a 100k btu basis

1kWh is roughly 3500 Btu, so roughly $6.57 per 100k Btu.

Sorry, the engineer in me couldn't help it

Wow that is crazy high.

 

[CaptSpiff]

1kWh is roughly 3500 Btu, so roughly $6.57 per 100k Btu.

Sorry, the engineer in me couldn't help it

Wow that is crazy high.

OK,... I did not want to know that. My mom is in a Senior community where everything is electric. She said her electric bill for Dec was $500.I ignored it at the time, but your numbers above show the insanity of electric baseboard. I gotta figure out something.

 

[missedbass]

I also agree with installing an insert downstairs, heat will flow up the staircase without a problem and I think you will lose too much space with a stove upstairs. Make sure you burn seasoned wood with your insert or the large glass window you want will be black within a few burns. Start getting wood now!

 

[8686]

thanks for the replies guys. really great. I have decided on an insert for the downstairs. CatSpiff, do you know any reputable places in Suffolk Co? What is a runaway fire? I have heard that before on here.

I'm just looking to use the insert when we are downstairs. Weekend warrior. I don't think I would use it to try and replace NG heat. The result would be a sweltering hot basement and a slightly warm upstairs I think. I would just be nice to get something back (heat) from all my hard work splitting, rather than just have the heat go outside.