The value proposition? Englander vs. more expensive (Quadrafire / Harman)

[Harvey Schneider]

Which can be greatly reduced

I agree with that.
I also know that when I run my 25PDVC at idle the entire inside of the fire box is coated with creosote and tar.
I don't have that problem with the MVAE because I always run it at high flame with the thermostat doing on/off cycles. I tried running auto, where the controls vary the flame size, but that gets the fire box and glass dirty. To me that is clear evidence that low flame burns are generating more creosote and tars.
Some stoves are better than others at providing a clean burn, but my experience suggests that how you run a stove is also important.
YMMV

 

[altarr]

Never saw a stove cause a chimney fire, neglect causes a chimney fire! If I had 2 chimney fires and a stove almost killed my wife and unborn child the first thing I wouldn't do is go out and buy another pellet stove! I'm a redneck but this is even beyond my logic! WOW!!

when your stove is not burning properly ,you generate a lot of creosote. When your stove cannot be cleaned well due to its flawed design, you end up with bad burns and chimney fires.

my stoves are always professionally cleaned TWICE a year (mid-season and start of season) and in the englanders case, a DAILY FULL cleaning or it wouldnt run at all, so I was forced to clean it.

Now, I certainly never bought another englander, I did go and buy a harman and I havent looked back. the difference in the cleanliness of the stove/pipe is astounding.

 

[Dustin]

I guess I just don't share the same negative experience of a daily full cleaning?

My USED and abused 25pdvc runs just dandy without daily full cleanings. Glass stays clean too. All it took was a little LBA adjustment and its off to the races.

Chews through pellets? I guess I don't know what a harman burns, but, with as little as I'm using.. I can't complain.

Yes, it's loud, but I paid 500 bucks for it.

To the OP, get what you're comfortable with.


If you're doing it to save some money, short term, cheaper might not be a bad idea. Get the hang of a pellet stove for a small investment and see if you even like it. That's how I approached wood burning when I first got into it. Went cheap, liked it, now I have all the fancy stuff.

If you know you're gonna heat with pellets forever, and living in the house you're gonna stay in forever, maybe go with the big fancy one.

Once I move into a home I know I'll be in long term, I will probably join the "club" and by something with more features then my englander. But for now, while saving for a bigger home.. My Englander will do the job just fine


It's all about budget and the bottom dollar. How much do you really wanna sink into this?

 

[Dustin]

https://www.hearth.com/talk/index.php?threads/Harman-P35i---Dirty-Glass.82935/

 

[AddictiveStew]

you are probably on the verge of a flamewar (haha) but as someone who has owned both, I would like to give you my experience with them....

everything dhall28 has said I pretty much agree with. Harman burns everything and anything I put in there. Period. It burns it cleanly too.

The stove has several features which far and away exceed anything on the Englander. The simple fact that the stove will light and extinguish itself based on a temperature you set it a significant pellet saving feature.

Daily maintenance is an absolute breeze, so is monthly (one ton) maintenance. It REALLY could not be easier.

Now the Englander (at least the two I had).

Yes, the service is great...once you get to talk to someone. I am aware that people who work for this company are active contributors to this forum and that is fantastic. I have spoken with one of them and he has troubleshot my englander stove...he was great at it. But here is the issue. During the heating season they are SLAMMED. Part of the reason is staffing, the other part of the reason is that these things are always broken. When you buy a Harman, chances are you are purchasing through a local dealer and your warranty will cover in home service. Even when the warranty is over, you always have the choice of having someone knowledgeable with your stove to come and fix it. With englander, you just dont get that.

The overall construction of the englander stoves is troublesome as well. The way you access the heat exchanger does not lend itself to easy (or at all) cleaning. This leads to extreme air flow issues. Air flow issues lead to dirty burns. Dirty burns means little heat and cold nights. No amount of attention or work can really overcome this design flaw. With the englander I was doing the equivalent of a harman monthly cleaning EVERY SINGLE DAY. Even then the stove would be burning dirty within 24 hours. This wasnt just a single stove either, this problem was across both of my englander stoves.

In the end, did the englanders save me money over oil? sure. but they also caused 2 chimney fires, constant aggravation, blew through bags of pellets, an ash pan fire (which almost killed my pregnant wife one morning at 3am) etc etc. Switching to pellets with the englander was just way too much work/effort for the return they gave me. When I would show people the stove and answer their questions truthfully, not too many people were enthused at the work required to save money on oil. When I show them my harman, they ask for the dealers number.

Bottom line. I have owned three pellet stoves in 4 years. If I had owned the Harman first, I would still be on number 1. That is over 4k worth of pellet stoves that I have simply replaced.

If you cant buy the harman this year, save your money until you can. You may have an ok experience in the end with the englander, but I promise you, your experience will be an absolute dream with harman.

This is ABSOLUTELY correct. I owned an Englander and it was an absolute nightmare. I could never get the perfect burn. I was cleaning it day in and day out. It does the job but it requires an incredible amount of maintenance. With my new job I have to travel more and I needed something that the wife could just dump pellets in and forget it. The Harman IS that. It runs GREAT all the time and the monthly cleaning IMO is even easier than the daily Englander cleaning was. CRAZY. I will never go back, I love my P43!

 

[RKS130]

I've been reading lots on this forum and have found many good tips.

Here's the deal, I'm looking at a pellet stove for the house. From what I can tell, Englander stoves are fairly rugged and provide incredible service after the sale - and seem to be second to none in the industry for their service. The more expensive stoves are perhaps built better (maybe?), depending on the model - could be all cast iron, and might be a bit prettier but may not have the service. On the other hand, it seems both Englander stoves and the more expensive ones have their "issues."

Using rough dollars, I'm looking at the Englander 25EP ($2k), the quadrafire Mt. Vernon ($4k), and maybe the Harman P series (maybe 61a) ($4k).
So here's my question: What is the value proposition of the more expensive stoves?

I've seen a lot of "you'll get what you pay for" - comments. Can someone please substantiate? I've seen lots of positive and negative comments on all brands of stoves and would like to know what the additional $2k would get me.

As for my house, (excluding the basement) the first and second floor have about 2200 sq feet. The floor plan is fairly open with a walkway on the second floor visible from the first floor kitchen. I'd like to put the pellet stove where I currently have a zero clearance gas log set. From what I understand I would line the 6 inch gas pipe with a 4 inch insulated pipe for the exhaust of the pellet stove.

If you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. Thank you for your time.

To me, a big issue is the maintenance required. A friend has a stove - no idea which manufacturer - but he has to clean it virtually daily. My Harman is quite happy with once a week, and at that a light cleaning every other week, and removing the baffles and a deeper cleaning on the off weeks.

Don't get me wrong. I happen to enjoy cleaning my stove and find it relaxing. BUT....I still don't want to do it every day, nor do I have the time. So, over the life of the stove, the maintenance schedule would loom large for me. Just sayin.

 

[bill3rail]

I've seen lots of positive and negative comments on all brands of stoves and would like to know what the additional $2k would get me.

It will be that much longer before your pellet stove investment is paying for itself! Either stove will pay for itself, $1500.00 or $3000.00.

The maintenance is not bad at all, the dust from some brands of pellets can be insane so a pellet vacuum will reduce that. I would buy another England's if I needed it.

My main reason was to save on oil usage, and I have succeeded amazingly well on that.

Bill
England's Stove owner and happy.

 

[AddictiveStew]

I guess the real question is how much of your own personal time would you like to spend on cleaning your stove and what is that worth to you? Also, do you have another individual in the house that is willing to spend that time when you are out of town? To keep my 25EP running daily, I had to pretty much disassemble the whole stove and vacuum out every nook and cranny. This took me roughly 20 min per day. If I left it go for even one day, I would have a bad burn and soot and all kinds of issues.

 

[moey]

If I had to choose again I would pick a Englander. I was unaware of the warranty policies of Quads/Harmans Ive never had warranty work done but I despise the way they have their warranty system setup. I would choose Englander over the others for this reason alone.

 

[Polar Bear]

In the end, did the englanders save me money over oil? sure. but they also caused 2 chimney fires, constant aggravation, blew through bags of pellets, an ash pan fire (which almost killed my pregnant wife one morning at 3am) etc etc.

I don't understand how you have 2 chimney fires in 4 years. Something isn't passing the sniff test here.

 

[Harvey Schneider]

I don't understand how you have 2 chimney fires in 4 years. Something isn't passing the sniff test here.

Perhaps he didn't perform the sniff test.

 

[MCPO]

"Altarr`s" bizzare issues (chimney fires especially) had to be caused by either a faulty installation or his lack of proper maintenance. Why he`s blaming the stove is a mystery to me.
I have many friends with low end Englander pellet stoves including myself and none of us ever experienced anything like he claims.
I have a Harman too . Sure the Harman is a better stove but it had ought to be since it does indeed cost at least twice as much .
Sure you get what you pay for as a rule , and then again sometimes you don`t. The Englander does in fact give you your money`s worth and sometimes more and is almost always seen as a real value for many of us who have a hard time with the idea of spending multiple thousand on a space heater that adds little to no value to a home.
Isn`t it nice we all have our opinions , likes , and dislikes?
Personally I think the best answer was to buy the Englander instead of the Harman and put the savings into a heat pump.

 

[refiners_fire]

This is ABSOLUTELY correct. I owned an Englander and it was an absolute nightmare. I could never get the perfect burn. I was cleaning it day in and day out. It does the job but it requires an incredible amount of maintenance. With my new job I have to travel more and I needed something that the wife could just dump pellets in and forget it. The Harman IS that. It runs GREAT all the time and the monthly cleaning IMO is even easier than the daily Englander cleaning was. CRAZY. I will never go back, I love my P43!

My situation is similar. I need something simple that my wife can use...or it will never be used (i.e. Maintained) while I'm away on business. The wife is already plenty busy...plus she might not be happy with me if i turned her into Cinderella

 

[refiners_fire]

If I had to choose again I would pick a Englander. I was unaware of the warranty policies of Quads/Harmans Ive never had warranty work done but I despise the way they have their warranty system setup. I would choose Englander over the others for this reason alone.

I'm intrigued. Please tell me more. If you've never had warranty work done, what was the problem?

 

[lessoil]

I now have 2 Enganders, a PAH and an EP. I was strongly considering a Harmon for my second stove but with how good my PAH has been to me, and the fact the Harmon would've really stretched my budget, I picked up a used EP at an incredible value. Keep in mind I paid under $1000 each for them. In general I am very happy with them and have no problems recommending them to most people (depending on their situation). Here is my input from my experience with these 2 stoves:
Pros:
Price! They put out great heat and are very reliable. Getting replacement parts is easy, even Lowe's and Home Depot sell them, although I haven't had the need. They will control the heat very accurately when you use them with a t-stat in a central location of your house. They can be run in on/off mode (auto ignite and extinguish) or high/low mode, so plenty versatile.
Cons:
Cleaning...if you don't want to be hands on, these are not the stoves for you. I clean daily, now I don't have to (I'm obsessed with it being clean and running perfect) but you certainly wouldn't want to ignore it for days on end or longer. I guarantee that the vast majority of people who have problems with them simply aren't taking care of them. The daily cleaning only takes about 5 minutes though and keeps it running great. The thorough cleanings are maybe once every 4-6 weeks when your in peak heating season. Some of the areas that need to be cleaned when you do the thorough cleaning are not easy to access.
Noise: I wish they were quieter, and I'm sure this is an area where more expensive stoves excel.

As far as value goes, I think it's hard to dispute that Englander is a great value (at least when purchased at a decent price, such as from AM/FM energy). The used Harman's that I looked at were all $2500 or more, making them still 2.5 times what I paid for my stoves! Whether that's worth it to you or not, is probably more dependent on your finances and expectations than anything. I will say that if budget were no issue, I would most likely buy a Harman to reduce noise and time spend cleaning.

Well stated!

We have a P61 in the living room (original stove) and added an Englander 25-pdvc (basement)
Both stoves heat well.
I like the large ash pan on the P61.
P61 cleaning is very easy.
P61 will eat almost anything you feed it.

Englander
Good price
Excellent service
Cleaning-I do not find it to be difficult but has to be done more often (no ash pan, every 2-3 days)
Set stove up in correct mode and the heat output is very good.

With the setup we have, our oil usage has dropped from 950 gal to 300/yr (Hot Water) so no complaints here!

 

[Arti]

How about a 3 month payback...?

http://www.lowes.com/pd_45894-76845...0a70-fb42-50a9-830c-000071a92cfe&kpid=1184101

 

[apandori]

How about a 3 month payback...?

http://www.lowes.com/pd_45894-76845...0a70-fb42-50a9-830c-000071a92cfe&kpid=1184101

Even better at amfmenergy.com

 

[refiners_fire]

Well stated!

We have a P61 in the living room (original stove) and added an Englander 25-pdvc (basement)
Both stoves heat well.
I like the large ash pan on the P61.
P61 cleaning is very easy.
P61 will eat almost anything you feed it.

Englander
Good price
Excellent service
Cleaning-I do not find it to be difficult but has to be done more often (no ash pan, every 2-3 days)
Set stove up in correct mode and the heat output is very good.

With the setup we have, our oil usage has dropped from 950 gal to 300/yr (Hot Water) so no complaints here!

Few questions for you here:
What was the reason you chose the P61 first?
You mention the P61 will eat almost anything, but does this imply that the Englander won't eat anything?
You mention the "Excellent service" with the Englander but you don't mention your service with Harman. Can you please explain your experience with the service on your Harman?

 

[apandori]

I think there's two mentalities with stoves and this basically solves all the issues of which ones you can go with.

Look at the Englander as the workman's stove. You have to be somewhat mechanically inclined to use/maintain it. If you look at England Stove Works website it basically says that just in more words.

"England's Stove Works was started, and is still owned by, a family that believes strongly in a "Do It Yourself" spirit – that’s one reason you found this product at your favorite “Do It Yourself” store."

The Harmon is the "Set it and forget it" for either the busy person, or hands off I don't like touching things with motors person.

Either mentality is fine, if I had tons of money I'd probably have a Harmon. I can also do my own electric, roofing, tiling, and other home needs so I know myself having an Englander is not going to be an issue for me.

If you aren't mechanically inclined, it's probably not a good idea to buy an Englander, even though I believe they dumb it down pretty good with an instructional DVD to show you how to replace everything and clean as well.

The stoves are made just fine and put out heat. I'm sure there's some lemons with every brand but reality is if you're having massive problems with an Englander stove it could be you're just not as "Do it yourself" as you thought, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Just my 2 cents... Hate it or love it. Haha!

 

[Harvey Schneider]

If you aren't mechanically inclined, it's probably not a good idea to buy an Englander,

I agree with you. I want to add that if you are inclined to learn, it is a good place to gain experience. The videos, trouble shooting guides, and advice from this forum make it possible for almost anybody to learn to maintain an ESW stove. For somebody with a true lack of mechanical comprehension or a distain for getting his or her hands dirty, well they should buy a Harman or Quad.

 

[Tonyray]

I bought a HarmanP61A last winter for 2 reasons..
my dealer would cover all waranty. [ 2 miles away.]
The wharehouse where he stores his skids of pellets is half mile from my house making for easy quick pickup.
Not the best reasons of course but thru using it, the ease of cleaning it, and all the great info and tips I learned here at the forum,
it wasn't long before I realized I bought one of the best if not the best Pellet stove out there..

 

[moey]

I'm intrigued. Please tell me more. If you've never had warranty work done, what was the problem?

Harman has no tech support number at least without jumping through hoops. If you want tech support you have to call your dealer. That's fine if your dealer is still in business or they are not jerks. Harman provides little incentive for dealers to actually provide warranty support the cost of warranty work is part of your original purchase so once your dealer has your money wheres there incentive to help you? They get a lousy rate per hour from Harman and can make better money doing other things. Englander you call them on the phone and they diagnose it with you they will overnight the part to you if they are able to diagnose it.Of course some folks would consider that a drawback I see it as a plus.

If your dealer goes bellyup good luck getting your stove fixed under warranty.

That is why there is so much discussion about finding a good dealer. Most stove shops come and go sure some have been around a while. Around me I can think of 2 that went under in the past couple years.

 

[dlehneman]

Personally I would much rather fix my stove myself (if necessary) then rely on someone else to help me. If it breaks down after business hours (which Murphy's law says it will), then you're probably out of luck and heat until it's convenient for them. Granted if a part fails and I don't have it on hand, I'm still out of luck, but if you know your stove well enough, you may be able to come up with a temporary fix until you can get the part.
Clearly this is more of a personality trait then a plus or minus for the stove you choose, but another thing to consider when shopping for a stove that suits you. To me needing to rely on a dealer would be a negative, but probably not the case for most people.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Never saw a stove cause a chimney fire, neglect causes a chimney fire! If I had 2 chimney fires and a stove almost killed my wife and unborn child the first thing I wouldn't do is go out and buy another pellet stove! I'm a redneck but this is even beyond my logic! WOW!!

Amen to that! It pretty well sums up a lame attempt at glorifying Harman's. Yes, they are apparently well made stoves but they aren't the elixir of all things pellet oriented. You'll see plenty of questions throughout the winter about them too. The real question that should be asked of ANYONE buying a pellet stove is 'are you ready to accept the fact that you must ROUTINELY service/clean/troubleshoot the appliance when IT needs it and not when YOU feel like it?' and 'do you realize that this is a SPACE HEATER?'.

 

[AddictiveStew]

Amen to that! It pretty well sums up a lame attempt at glorifying Harman's. Yes, they are apparently well made stoves but they aren't the elixir of all things pellet oriented. You'll see plenty of questions throughout the winter about them too. The real question that should be asked of ANYONE buying a pellet stove is 'are you ready to accept the fact that you must ROUTINELY service/clean/troubleshoot the appliance when IT needs it and not when YOU feel like it?' and 'do you realize that this is a SPACE HEATER?'.

I'll glorify my Harman any day of the week compared to my Englander. I didn't mind the constant maintenance of the Englander but I didn't have time for it. Not to mention that the Harman seems to be much more efficient and create far less ash. It burns the pellet until there is nothing left! But regardless, I absolutely agree that a pellet stove is all about the maintenance and you need to commit to putting the time in for upkeep. I actually look forward to firing up the pellet stove. It's a nice little hobby.