The California Power Mess

[SidecarFlip]

I don't understand this logic when 40% of US corn is used to make ethanol:

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Maps and Data - U.S. Corn Production and Portion Used for Fuel Ethanol

afdc.energy.gov

Not here and I don't grow ANY e-corn and never have. E-corn is a special variety GMO modified just for ethanol production. Maybe in your state but not here. Of course I don't know squat about California and really don't want to. From what I see on the news your state is either burning up or sliding down a mountain in a mudslide.

 

[ABMax24]

I don't understand this logic when 40% of US corn is used to make ethanol:

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Maps and Data - U.S. Corn Production and Portion Used for Fuel Ethanol

afdc.energy.gov

That and most farmland is actually lost to urban sprawl, suburbs, acreages, cottages, weekend getaways, industrial development. Solar farms are a very small player.

 

[SpaceBus]

Might work with a truck farm, won't work with row cropping. No ag tractor will fit in there and if they do, I'd like to see it. Corn, wheat and soybeans are staples for our economy. Not peppers and tomatoes. The only thing that sort of farming does is increase migrant labor in this country, nothing more.

Being a farmer and landowner, I'm totally against conversion of good farm ground to solar.

Why is it the fault of the migrants? Maybe farmers should hire domestically born labor.

Trying here (Deerfield, Michigan) but meeting stiff opposition, me included. Some of the best farmland in south east Michigan is right here and at least on my ground it's not gonna happen. Sure, 800 bucks a year per acre is enticing but loosing productive farmland to solar just isn't worth it for me. Besides, some of the field corn I grow goes into my corn burned and heats my home in the winter.....

The township is looking at the tax generated to support it but I know what will transpire most likely. The solar company will apply for a tax abatement and most likely get it and then the township gets zip. Either that or the solar company will divest itself from the project and then the court will decide what an equitable rent amount is. The court will ask what the going rate per acre rent is (it's between 200 and 250 an acre presently and the court will set it at that rate and the landholder looses.

Finally, the proposed solar 'farm' here, the solar company has specifically stated that the landholders must pay for the decomissioning of the arrays on their land. Always keep in mind that decommissioned solar panels are HAZARDOUS WASTE and must be disposed of in an approved landfill so, it's not just the take them to any old landfill, you pay dearly to dispose of them and then there is all the substructure as well.

At my age, it really don't matter as I won't be here to deal with it but, I consider myself a steward of the land as as such, I will not defile that with solar panels.

Then there is the manufacture of the panels and what goes into them and the pollution that causes. I guess people think that solar panels are made by the tooth fairy.. Sort of like the electric car batteries. They contain LITHIUM and last time I checked, lithium was a hazardous substance. Same deal with panels, they contain hazardous substances and those substances don't come from here, they come from there and over there, they don't give a hoot about pollution or human condition, only profit.

I might be 70 but I don't have my head in the sand.

Don't give a hoot about net carbon, never have and don't care. I hate Tier 4 mandates on diesel engines., in fact so much that none of my tractors are Tier 4 and I won't buy one or at least until the controls are actually perfected to where the consumer (me) isn't playing surrogate to the builders, testing their emissions systems. There are 5 diesel powered units on this farm and none are emissions compliant and never will be. What I find interesting is, the value of those machines is steadily climbing because people are wising up and avoiding Tier 4 diesels if possible.

Of course if you live in suburbia or in an urban environment all that concerns you is that you have heat or light and that is all well and good but, keep in mind that in the end you'll pay for that in greater and greater amounts as the progression to solar and alternative fuels increase and food become less and less available.

Me, not worried about it. I won't be here to reap the rewards of stupidity.

Most of this is just your opinion, zero "proven facts" about solar production. You know all that oil, grease, and fuel you put into your tractors? Those are all hazardous substances as well. The particulates that come off the tires, the flecks of paint that come off, and the exhaust are also hazardous substances. Your head is in the sand about Tier 4 and other diesel products. There are thousands of them running across the globe and a few folks are having issues, just like with older tractors. Your head is so deep in the sand you are listening to Chinese propaganda about carbon and pollution. Your farm must not be very big, because all the largest farms are running the most modern diesel equipment. The value of used equipment is going up because of fools like you inflating the value.

 

[SpaceBus]

Not here and I don't grow ANY e-corn and never have. E-corn is a special variety GMO modified just for ethanol production. Maybe in your state but not here. Of course I don't know squat about California and really don't want to. From what I see on the news your state is either burning up or sliding down a mountain in a mudslide.

Keep your head in the sand about CA as well.

"Over a third of the country's vegetables and two-thirds of the country's fruits and nuts are grown in California. California is the leading US state for cash farm receipts, accounting for over 13 percent of the nation's total agricultural value."

CDFA - Statistics

www.cdfa.ca.gov

.

 

[SpaceBus]

That and most farmland is actually lost to urban sprawl, suburbs, acreages, cottages, weekend getaways, industrial development. Solar farms are a very small player.

Thank you.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Basically done commenting other than to say your ignorance is bliss... for you. Think maybe you should go and become a picker and experience it alongside the migrant workers.. Have a nice day... I plan on it.

 

[SpaceBus]

Basically done commenting other than to say your ignorance is bliss... for you. Think maybe you should go and become a picker and experience it alongside the migrant workers.. Have a nice day... I plan on it.

This is about as openly racist as you can be on this forum. The only one ignorant on this thread is you, so perhaps pay attention.

 

[peakbagger]

This is about as openly racist as you can be on this forum. The only one ignorant on this thread is you, so perhaps pay attention.

If you feel a post or poster is inappropriate click on the report button in the lower left hand of the post. Alternatively you have the option of ignoring the poster.

 

[SidecarFlip]

My final comment... If you think (I use that term loosely) that any domestically raised American citizen would work picking vegetables in a hot field like Mexican migrant workers do (here) every planting and harvest. you are living in a dream world. No young American would do it and if they did, they'd last maybe an hour and be done. Kids today don't want to do manual labor and if on the outside chance they would, they would demand top wages and a break every 15 minutes. if they would. They much prefer playing video games, yacking on cell phones and doing nothing. Why we use imported workers. if we didn't hand picked crops would never get harvested.

Why I quit running small squares (hay) years ago and went to rounds and large squares. Thewability to hire flat rack loaders in non-existent, no matter how much you pay them.. Might last half a wagon and are finished. Don't have the impetus to do it so I'm 100% mechanized now. Have a pristine New Holland 575 square baler in the barn that hasn't been used in 5 years.

Far as my position on solar (or wind turbines) and land use, nothing changes with me. I'm 100 % against solar on fertile, productive farm land that is better suited for growing crops. Put the solar and wind on arid ground or on your roof. Not fertile ground.

You people need to quit drinking the Kool aid and come to terms with reality.

 

[ben94122]

I don't know squat about California...

California, like everyplace else, is beautiful. We're even in the National Anthem: "We're from North California and South Alabam, and little towns all around this land."

There is always something to complain about, but my kids have plenty to eat and have never known war. We live in the middle of a 6 million acre forest. What more could I want?

 

[begreen]

California, like everyplace else, is beautiful. We're even in the National Anthem: "We're from North California and South Alabam, and little towns all across this land."

There is always something to complain about, but my kids have plenty to eat and have never known war. We live in the middle of a 6 million acre forest. What more could I want?

Rain?

 

[ben94122]

Rain?

Says the guy from the land where intermittent windshield wipers were invented...we get rain in the winter, where it belongs!

This was the view from the road by my house last night. The lumber mill is the lights in the foreground, and the red is forest fire. About 3 miles away.

 

[peakbagger]

This article has pretty good blow by blow on what happened.

(broken link removed to https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/day-california-went-dark-crisis-113000960.html)

Tripping a combined cycle plant definitely didnt help. I expect a lot of folks will be showing up at the plant demanding operating records on the trip. Just think the Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant a major power 2.2 GW is going down starting in 2024. If they shut down Aliso Canyon natural gas storage facility even if they have peakers they will not be able to run them due to lack of natural gas so I guess they will need oil backup.

 

[brenndatomu]

Just think the Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant a major power 2.2 GW is going down starting in 2024. If they shut down Aliso Canyon natural gas storage facility even if they have peakers they will not be able to run them due to lack of natural gas so I guess they will need oil backup.

Just what I have said for years...this stuff is just political games and not thought through well at all (reactive) its all fine and well if flyover country has brown and blackouts...but when Mr Senator (or office of your choosing) comes home and the Mrs doesn't have power at the house...uh oh, maybe we quit burning recycled dinos a bit too soon.
Locally, we are dealing with a base load plant that was forced into service as a peaking plant due to an agreement with the previous administration to allow two smaller boilers to run coal if one large one was converted to gas...not working out well...as soon as a new tie line is completed, it will be mothballs for another coal plant...and the end of any local control...well, that's already begun...

 

[ABMax24]

I can see a huge rollout of backup batteries (tesla powerwall and the like) coming to Californian homes in the next year. Those with enough money will start to protect themselves from these rolling blackouts.

Another option is to provide rebates and incentives to upgrade both home insulation and AC units to increase efficiency.

There will be a lot of money to be made if someone can develop and construct gigawatt scale energy storage in California, I'm sure a lot of businesses will now be taking notice of this after these blackouts.

The one thing I'm concerned about is natural gas supply. With all these new peaker plants the gas has to come from sowewhere. The western Canadian sedimentary basin has a lot of gas yet to be produced, but the vast majority of it now must be fracked to be extracted, so any kind of moratorium or restrictions on fracking will drive prices up considerably. There is also an LNG terminal being built on the west coast that will compete for supply. Also in Canada we will phase out all coal power by 2030, in Alberta alone we have 5GW of coal generation that will be replaced by gas, further driving up demand. Making less gas available to ship south of the border to California, and almost certainly excluding the possibility of any new pipelines being built that way to increase supply to California's peaker plants.

It would have been really nice if these events had opened the eyes of the public to what they can do in their own lives to reduce consumption and their use of peak time electricity. But as usual all the blame is being put on CAISO as to why there wasn't enough electricity to meet almost record setting demand.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Electric cars, electric trucks, cordless electric tools, all take guess what....Gotta love it. Being green is being dark. Build those solar farms and wind mills. All good with me, just not on my ground, on yours..... duh.

 

[peakbagger]

If you go back to my OP, I used the guinea pig comparison. If the world consensus is that they want to avoid future drastic climate changes that have already had impacts worldwide, de-carbonization its not optional then the status quo has to change and its going to require trial and error. California politicians were not listening to technical folks who run their grid and the politicians got thumped upside the head when they ignored the technical folks. They will thrown a public tantrum but ultimately there will be changes legislated to reduce the impact of the next event. My guess is batteries will factor in heavily. CA is not the only dicey power market in the US , Ercot in Texas has had ongoing summer issues integrating wind, ISO New England has been predicting power shortages during winter conditions. due to the loss of a couple baseload nukes and an artificial shortage of natural gas in the region. Mass is betting the Canadians will figure a way of running a extension cord to save them and maybe once the administration changes do the right thing and switch to big offshore wind.

Its not going to be free or easy but changes will occur once it gets painful.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Its not going to be free or easy but changes will occur once it gets painful.

Isn't that how it always works?

 

[CaptSpiff]

This article has pretty good blow by blow on what happened.

(broken link removed to https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/day-california-went-dark-crisis-113000960.html)

Tripping a combined cycle plant definitely didnt help. I expect a lot of folks will be showing up at the plant demanding operating records on the trip. Just think the Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant a major power 2.2 GW is going down starting in 2024. If they shut down Aliso Canyon natural gas storage facility even if they have peakers they will not be able to run them due to lack of natural gas so I guess they will need oil backup.

The most telling line in that article:
"The state, guided by one of the most ambitious climate policies in the U.S., had retired 9 gigawatts of gas capacity -- enough to power 6.8 million homes -- over the past five years."

Sometimes zealots for a cause need to suffer some pain. Problem is most are so blind that they'll call for doubling down.
Sad that they take us with them.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say nothing is going to change. Those who are in power have backup generators and don't care.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Exactly......................

 

[begreen]

My final comment...

Let's keep politics out of the discussion. There is lots of abuse on all sides of the equation.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Subject matter changed....lol

 

[Highbeam]

Super easy solution. Get a silly cheap backup generator and a propane tank to feed it for these once a year occurrences. Much to do about nothing.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Don't know about the cheap part. We have a turbo diesel 30 KW backup genny that feeds off the 1000 gallon diesel bulk tahn here on the farm. Provides complete power (1 and 3 phase) for the entire farm 45 seconds after we loose utility power which isn't often. I keep the tank at least 3/4 full all the time. Enough to power the unit for 2 weeks non stop running.