Tesla Model 3 Parked in Our Garage

[woodgeek]

Bottom line is that the center panel is CHEAP and VERSATILE as controls get more complex. And people are already able to navigate touch screens. So they are probably here to stay. Blame Steve Jobs (and XEROX), it was just a matter of time.

I am dreaming of my next EV.... I like my 2015 Volt and the price is right (did 11k miles in my first year, just ended). So I am dreaming of the Mustang MachE or a Model Y at the same price point (the Ford will have $7500 rebates, the Tesla not).

 

[Ashful]

Modern history has set very low expectations for all aspects of the Ford offering. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, but right now I anticipate it not fully living up to the hype.

 

[jatoxico]

If comparing to a Hellcat, just forget it. There’s just no arguing with 707 HP.

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Teslas' is pretty quick

 

[lsucet]

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Teslas' is pretty quick

That's what I always understood and there is different/multiple videos saying so.

 

[Where2]

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Teslas' is pretty quick

The lead into that video is why I don't bother to try to buy a vehicle to impress anyone. The NHRA track they used (PBIR) isn't far from my house, and on any given day it's not surprising to to be sitting in traffic next to any one of those exotic cars, especially "in season".

Having an EV, it's impressive to listen to their engines sing when the traffic lights change, but I really don't miss buying gas.

As for center touch panels being cheap and versatile, I'm finding it quite distracting fiddling with the icon driven touch screen while driving. Oh to have the eyes of a twenty-something year old with flexible lenses that easily focused on something at arms length and then back on the road again...

 

[begreen]

Bottom line is that the center panel is CHEAP and VERSATILE as controls get more complex. And people are already able to navigate touch screens. So they are probably here to stay. Blame Steve Jobs (and XEROX), it was just a matter of time.

I am dreaming of my next EV.... I like my 2015 Volt and the price is right (did 11k miles in my first year, just ended). So I am dreaming of the Mustang MachE or a Model Y at the same price point (the Ford will have $7500 rebates, the Tesla not).

Might be ok for an autonomous vehicle, but this is not ok for a human interface. Eyes belong on the road in critical traffic situations.

 

[Ashful]

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Teslas' is pretty quick

They are pretty quick, yes. But keep in mind I was comparing a $52k SRT 392 and a $63k Hellcat to a $65k Model 3 dual motor, there was no mention of $100k cars.

The P100D is well over $100,000, typically configured, and there are gassers at that price point and below that will beat it in the 1/4 mile, as well. Heck, the Demon beats it all day long, and at just $85k!

That is my underlying issue with Tesla, nice cars, but absurd pricing. Thankfully for them, they’ve found a market.

 

[jebatty]

I found the touchscreen on the Model 3 to be distracting at first, but as I got used to it and learned where the control touches were, I find it very easy for the commonly used controls. For controls not so common, having a 2nd pair of eyes in the passenger seat are helpful. But it was the same for me with other cars and manual controls. Still needed time to learn where they were and how they worked. So in the end, not much different between the touchscreen and manual controls.

 

[jatoxico]

They are pretty quick, yes. But keep in mind I was comparing a $52k SRT 392 and a $63k Hellcat to a $65k Model 3 dual motor, there was no mention of $100k cars.

The P100D is well over $100,000, typically configured, and there are gassers at that price point and below that will beat it in the 1/4 mile, as well. Heck, the Demon beats it all day long, and at just $85k!

That is my underlying issue with Tesla, nice cars, but absurd pricing. Thankfully for them, they’ve found a market.

There are videos of the Model 3 against and walking on Hellcat's as well. Whether or not they're absolutely fair or biased comparisons I don't know but I never got the idea that the problem with Tesla's was performance.

I'm not ready for an EV because even though they might satisfy 80-90% of my driving scenarios they don't yet satisfy 100%.

 

[jebatty]

I've never yet had a vehicle that alone satisfied 100% of my driving scenarios. Maybe a hammer comes close to satisfying 100% of the scenario of pounding nails.It's terrible at most other things.

 

[Ashful]

There are videos of the Model 3 against and walking on Hellcat's as well. Whether or not they're absolutely fair or biased comparisons I don't know but I never got the idea that the problem with Tesla's was performance.

I'm not ready for an EV because even though they might satisfy 80-90% of my driving scenarios they don't yet satisfy 100%.

I agree with jebatty, there. The reason I have three cars is that no one of them satisfies 100% of my driving scenarios.

You’d need a mighty poor reaction time or a bad launch to let a model 3 beat you on the track in a Hellcat. But I feel you are correct in saying performance isn’t a strike against them, they’re plenty good enough in that regard, for what they are.

With time, the cost of the EV’s will hopefully trend toward the ICE’s, or perhaps the other way ‘round. It will be tough to convince some people to transition before then, as people talk about moral ideals, but almost always vote with their wallet. I have driven both the model S and model 3, and feel both are vastly overpriced for what you get, other than the feeling of moral superiority. Likewise, I was just looking at a Volvo V60 Polestar edition, which is an impressive little 415 hp small sports wagon... but at nearly double the cost of the gasser, I’ll be sticking with petrol for now.

 

[jatoxico]

The reason I have three cars is that no one of them satisfies 100% of my driving scenarios.

My and many other peoples lives have evolved around ICE vehicles so I know they can do what I need. When it comes to EV's I'm not sure. What's the real range gonna be 5-6 yrs down the road when the batteries are getting tired, on the road in heavy traffic, when its 20 and you need the heat or 95 ac cranking, radio playing, charging (her) phone, using nav etc? I can tell you I don't want to sit around waiting 25 min for my car to charge every 150-180 mi even if I can find a supercharger.

One thing they do seem to do well with is cost of ownership. As a pure commuter I could have one as long as nothing unexpected comes up.

 

[Ashful]

My and many other peoples lives have evolved around ICE vehicles so I know they can do what I need. When it comes to EV's I'm not sure. What's the real range gonna be 5-6 yrs down the road when the batteries are getting tired, on the road in heavy traffic, when its 20 and you need the heat or 95 ac cranking, radio playing, charging (her) phone, using nav etc? I can tell you I don't want to sit around waiting 25 min for my car to charge every 150-180 mi even if I can find a supercharger.

One thing they do seem to do well with is cost of ownership. As a pure commuter I could have one as long as nothing unexpected comes up.

I think others here (woodgeek, jebatty) have and can already offer some pretty clear and real-life responses to that. I really have no concern that an EV could easily satisfy my or my wife's daily requirements, which range from 15 to 90 miles per day, depending on the day of the week. I even have no concern they'd be suitable for family trips, which at most might include as much as 4 hours' drive.

I really don't think there are many legitimate arguments left to be made against EV's, based on their performance, capability, or range. Most of these problems have been solved. The legitimate issues remaining are:

1. Cost. You will pay at LEAST 25% more for the same features and performance in a luxury or sport EV, versus an ICE. In some cases, you may pay nearly double for the EV, over a legitimately-competing performance or luxury ICE.

2. Resale. Let's face it, with the technology still improving every year, EV's are going to depreciate much faster than ICE's have historically depreciated. Of course, with shifting social pressures and morals working against the reducing availability of ICE's over the next decade, there's no predicting what the resale of a 2019 ICE will be in 2029, either.

3. Dealership network. I pass three dealerships with a wide range of ICE's every day in my travels, but I do not come anywhere near any dealerships of any EV's I'd be willing to drive. My closest Tesla dealer is 80 minutes round-trip from my house, and not in the direction of my daily travels.

 

[jatoxico]

I really don't think there are many legitimate arguments left to be made against EV's, based on their performance, capability, or range.

Range is a problem in my mind. Not for my daily commute but Tesla owner's are reporting something like >40% reduction in range in cold weather.

 

[begreen]

Cold weather, steep mountains and heavy loads take their toll on battery range.

 

[Ashful]

Range is a problem in my mind. Not for my daily commute but Tesla owner's are reporting something like >40% reduction in range in cold weather.

I believe you, but for me, range wouldn't be much of an issue. The cheaper "standard range" model 3 is rated at 250 miles, and the "extended range" model 3 is rated a 322 miles. Your 40% reduction would take those numbers down to 150 or 195 miles, respectively... during the months when I'm not apt to take a long road trip anyway. If I own a car for 10 years, I may only do 3 -4 trips of > 250 miles in a single leg, and perhaps only 1-2 trips of > 322 miles in a single leg. When I do those trips, it's more likely than not I'd be hauling a trailer, and using my truck, anyway. If it's a family road trip without the boat or other trailer (and then I'd wonder why I'm not just flying to my destination...), I'd be happy to take my ICE if I still have it, or even take the chance to rent a comfortable full-size SUV for that once in a lifetime family road trip.

I can imagine a lot of scenarios where an EV might come up short, but if I'm honest with myself, very few of those imagined scenarios are likely to occur in my life.

edit: More honesty... I just checked, and in the 12 years we have owned our present family car, our longest trip has been only 175 miles each way... to a resort hotel that has multiple Tesla charging stations. That's well within the range of even the standard model 3, and if we're headed any place much farther than that, I'll fly!

 

[jebatty]

EV range is an elusive number. Stated maximum range is based on a set of assumed "average" conditions, and I have not seen any specs which state what these conditions are. A few actaul conditions affecting range are: speed and time driving at various speeds as in highway travel; variations and frequency of variations in speed as in stop and go driving; moderate or aggressive driving habits, terrain as in level, hilly or mountainous areas; wind direction and speed, ambient air temperature, need for heat or a/c, number of passengers and weight in the car.

For where I live in northern MN and where I need to drive, and usually both my wife and myself in the Tesla, I'm still learning at what "range" the Tesla actually has. Things which have a big impact for us are vehicle speed, wind velocity, and temperature. Neither my wife nor I are aggressive drivers, although we both enjoy the acceleration experience of the Tesla. And the terrain is pretty flat for most of our driving area.

Our typical long trip destination is 185 miles one way. This so far has been no issue with our Tesla in Spring, Summer and Fall driving, and we would finish this trip with about 110 miles +/- of range remaining. Total range about 295 miles. Our driving would be at posted speed limits, up to 70 mph.

But when we drove this the day before Thanksgiving a few days ago, with strong crosswinds, temperatures in the mid 20'sF, two dogs and luggage in the car, cabin temperature at 66F, and limiting our speed to 65mph, except where traffic flow required us to go faster, it appeared that we would exhaust our range at about 190 miles, so we stopped briefly at a Supercharger a short distance off our route to make sure we would arrive at our destination with sufficient range remaining to make the 10 mile trip to the Supercharger near out destination to get a full charge for the trip home.

This reduced winter range, at about 40%, even if more reduced in more extreme conditions, will not be a problem for us. We can leave home with a full charge, and we have four Tesla Superchargers located along the route to charge as needed.

The reduced range we experienced also was impacted by us installing winter tires on the Tesla. It would not surprise me if the added rolling resistance of those tires resulted in a 5-10% range reduction over the range we would have had with the (summer) tires provided on the Tesla. I'm a firm believer in winter tires for added safety, given our cold, icy and snowy condition in our MN winters.

 

[jebatty]

Resale. Let's face it, with the technology still improving every year, EV's are going to depreciate much faster than ICE's have historically depreciated. Of course, with shifting social pressures and morals working against the reducing availability of ICE's over the next decade, there's no predicting what the resale of a 2019 ICE will be in 2029, either.

You may be correct, but Tesla's OTA updates and building cars equipped for subsequent update implementation takes a little steam out of the depreciation scenario. Plus, I think it is a good bet that as batteries wear down, much less expensive and more powerful battery packs will be available at a much lower cost than what is current. Time will tell.

Regardless, I have to admit that I really love living an unfolding future with a very competent EV now rather than waiting for a future version.

 

[begreen]

This reduced winter range, at about 40%, even if more reduced in more extreme conditions, will not be a problem for us. We can leave home with a full charge, and we have four Tesla Superchargers located along the route to charge as needed.

That is consistent with what we see in our area for EVs. Range requirements are relative. The east coast is densely packed so a shorter range may be acceptable. Out west there are many places where going to the city may be a 100mi+ round trip. Tesla's supercharging network is it's strength as long as one's trips are between relatively high density population areas. They have done a great job with this.

We just went to Yosemite and I saw many Teslas making the trip. Just getting in and out of the park is about a 100 mile round trip, but lo and behold there is an L2 charging station there.

 

[begreen]

But this is one of the reasons why I still drive a PHEV

More Teslas on the Road Meant Hours-Long Supercharger Lines Over Thanksgiving

The busiest travel weekend of the year was an interesting test for Tesla's fast-charging network.

www.thedrive.com

 

[jebatty]

Tesla's Supercharger network was a big plus in the success of the S and Model 3, but that success may be ultimately limited by not enough Supercharger network capacity, especially at pinch points. Tesla has adapters for traditional Level 2 chargers, which are OK but at about 25 miles/hour of charging really slow for long distance travel, OK for destination chargers if enough are available at a destination. Level 1 chargers are nearly hopeless.

Both my son and I (185 miles apart) have installed two circuits to operate Level 2 charging so we both can charge at the same time. Makes visits to each other seamless.

 

[Ashful]

But this is one of the reasons why I still drive a PHEV

More Teslas on the Road Meant Hours-Long Supercharger Lines Over Thanksgiving

The busiest travel weekend of the year was an interesting test for Tesla's fast-charging network.

www.thedrive.com

Thanks for posting. This could be an issue for families who want to treat their EV as their primary family trip vehicle.

The plug in Hybrid has so many disadvantages, though... all the cost of an EV, if not more, with the added maintenance of an ICE. As mentioned previously, I was looking at a Volvo polestar PHEV, but it takes the cost of their $40k ICE wagon into the mid-$70k’s. How could one possibly justify that level of expense for a few extra mpg’s?

 

[CaptSpiff]

.... a Volvo polestar PHEV, but it takes the cost of their $40k ICE wagon into the mid-$70k’s. How could one possibly justify that level of expense for a few extra mpg’s?

It cannot be justified on the basis of mpg. But it can be on a "virtue" or "pride" basis.

One of my co-workers, young and well paid, recently got himself a $2700 laptop from a boutique assembler. Every single day, no matter what is being discussed, he works into the discussion how fast his video card is. He is so proud. No doubt he believes it was worth every penny.

 

[Ashful]

It cannot be justified on the basis of mpg. But it can be on a "virtue" or "pride" basis.

One of my co-workers, young and well paid, recently got himself a $2700 laptop from a boutique assembler. Every single day, no matter what is being discussed, he works into the discussion how fast his video card is. He is so proud. No doubt he believes it was worth every penny.

That’s misplaced virtue, and pride is something I need to work harder to suppress, not inflate.

 

[StewartKy]

I'm nearly breathless. About two months ago my wife said she wanted to go fossil carbon free with her car, which would require selling her 2011 Avalon, something I thought she would never do, and then she said that she wanted a Tesla. We looked, found what we wanted, and we delayed delivery for two months to get passed MN winter roads. The delay is over. Picked up the Model 3 today and drove it home. My wife's first new car since her 1977 Toyota Celica.

First impression -- an amazing car! We got the long range, all-wheel drive model with premium features, including Enhanced Autopilot (EAP) which will be upgraded to full self-driving when available. What's left is learning all the features. Fortunately the basic -- shift into gear and drive -- are easy.

I got my Chevy Bolt in Feb 2018, which has performed flawlessly for nearly 17,000 miles already. Now it has a feisty Tesla Model 3 to make a pair of BEVs for our household. Every kWh of our solar system will be put to use for our home and fueling two cars.

What were you driving before you got your Bolt?