Supercharging the Englander 30...Project OverKill.

[cottonwoodsteve]

Another efficiency idea that seems to work for me is cut shorter wood. If you look at most stoves the fire in the back burns more as it goes past the secondaries. The outlet is usually at the front. So the wood in the front has flames and smoke that goes directly up and out without passing the secondary burn tubes or radiating heat to the stove sides. There is no way I can measure it but it seems that having splits 1/2 to 3/4 of the normal length gives almost as much heat as longer splits. This is based on north / south loading and relative to the stove dimensions. Cutting wood about 1/2 the stove length doesn't work as well, because sometimes it won't stay stack and falls forward.

 

[Huntindog1]

Making the firebox smaller by adding more bricks should make the stove more efficient just like smaller stoves are more efficient. Plus adding thermal mass is good as it will store heat for you and slowly radiate it out later. The stove with more mass will heat up slower.

Which brings me to another idea that was given to me by a guy who sells ITC-100 and is in the Kiln and forge business. Now this would be a more expensive mod but interesting to think about. He said he gets calls from those professional meat smoking guys. They are always trying to build a better smoker. He said what they are trying is not using fire brick to line the fire box but like 1/2 plate steel. He said in a wood stove you could try the same thing and cut you pieces of 1/2" Plate steel. This will add mass to you stove which will store much more heat and re-radiate out the heat long after the fire goes out. So since you are using 1/2" Steel in place of the fire Brick you can use a thicker 1" ceramic Kawool insulation back behind the 1/2" steel for insulating the fire box.

One thing to keep in mind with these stoves is that they are already pretty efficient so most these changes are going to be like tweaks, small gains in operation of the stove. But like it was said they like how the Quadra fire stoves with the insulating fore bricks heat up easier and more quickly, its nice when you get that extra little performance out of the stove when you a have to mess with it everyday, 3 times a day.

 

[BurnIt13]

Making the firebox smaller by adding more bricks should make the stove more efficient just like smaller stoves are more efficient. Plus adding thermal mass is good as it will store heat for you and slowly radiate it out later. The stove with more mass will heat up slower.

One thing to keep in mind though is that IFB's will lower thermal mass. By nature they resist heat. They prevent heat absorption and keep the heat in the fire chamber. Standard firebricks are the opposite. They heat up more slowly and act as thermal mass. Kind of like soapstone. Actually some people do replace their firebricks with soapstone.

In the pizza oven trade the inside of the oven is lined with standard firebricks, as they tend to hold the heat in. Then there is a layer of IFB's to prevent the heat from escaping the oven. It takes longer to heat up but maintains level heat longer. Click here for a better description on a pizza oven hobbyist site.

By putting IFB's in our fireboxes we improve fire start up and initial secondary production. The heat is kept in the fire instead of getting absorbed into standard firebricks. This makes the fire get hotter quicker and secondaries fire off quicker. After the fire is established and the stove is up to temp it probably doesn't matter which brick you have. The IFB's should help get you up to temp quicker and allow you to turn down your air quicker.

A stove with standard fire bricks is losing some btu's to the bricks at first in order to heat them up. This shows why larger secondary stoves like the Englander 30 take longer to get into the cruise zone when compared to smaller that are more insulated. But one can probably argue that the larger stove with firebricks will stay a little warmer after the fire has gone out due to thermal mass.

IMO IFB's are probably best suited for secondary stoves, especially larger ones in order to get them in the cruising zone sooner. By nature secondary stoves do not stay hot for prolong periods of time (compared to cat stoves) and heat cycle more often. I think firebricks (or even soapstone) are best suited for cat stoves since they maintain a relative constant temp longer.

 

[BurnIt13]

Which brings me to another idea that was given to me by a guy who sells ITC-100 and is in the Kiln and forge business. Now this would be a more expensive mod but interesting to think about. He said he gets calls from those professional meat smoking guys. They are always trying to build a better smoker. He said what they are trying is not using fire brick to line the fire box but like 1/2 plate steel. He said in a wood stove you could try the same thing and cut you pieces of 1/2" Plate steel. This will add mass to you stove which will store much more heat and re-radiate out the heat long after the fire goes out. So since you are using 1/2" Steel in place of the fire Brick you can use a thicker 1" ceramic Kawool insulation back behind the 1/2" steel for insulating the fire box.

I'm a BBQ enthusiast and we like to keep temps constant for LONG periods of time. Like 12-18+ hours for big cuts of meat like briskets, pork shoulders, hams, etc. We hate temperature fluctuations. The goal is to keep the internal temp the same even if the fuel source (charcoal, wood or propane) has minor temperature output fluctuations.

The thick steel plate will add thermal mass and once heated up it will help keep temps constant. The IFB's behind the steel plate prevent the heat from being lost outside the smoker. This concept is perfect for a cat stove in my opinion.

The steel plate would also be preferable for smokers because it is easily cleaned...which typically needs to be done before every smoke. Since its operating at 225 degrees and cooking food instead of much higher temps found in wood stoves...you tend to get grease and soot build up fairly quickly. This would be a pain to clean if you used firebricks or some other porous material.

 

[mrmojo182]

My fiberboard showed up today. I go 1 inch thick stuff. I also got a large sheet of it, so I could have extra. My question is, if you look in the stove, the current boards sit on top of the burn tubes. About a quarter inch above the tubes, around the perimeter of the firebox there is the box that feeds the air to the secondary tubes. My question is, will it be better to put the board directly on the tubes, or up on this perimeter area. I'm guessing on top of the tubes is best, but wanted to see what others thought.

Jon

 

[BrotherBart]

Good luck sitting a one inch piece on top of the secondary manifold. The flame impingement shield welded into the top of the stove will probably bust it in two.

 

[Sprinter]

="DexterDay, post: 1295243, member: 16089"
...Lots of D & R went into the 30. We are not gonna make it better overnight. It's already a super large firebox that burns cleaner than a lot of other stoves....

...I need nothing more from this stove. Burn good wood and have good technique. Englander hit a Homerun with this unit. IMO.
.

Most modders mod because they must mod, not because a mod is necessary. Some guys are born to mod. I'd mod my stove, but I'd rather not burn my modded house down.

WelI guess I could be talked into adding some IFB in the shoulder seasons and see what happens

 

[Huntindog1]

Lots of D & R went into the 30. We are not gonna make it better overnight. It's already a super large firebox that burns cleaner than a lot of other stoves.

I noticed Englander doesnt publish an efficiency rating but only the grams of emission rating. I have looked into other stoves and what I have noticed as they do publish efficiency ratings is just because a stove has a low grams emission doesnt mean it will have a high efficiency rating.

My take since the basic design of these tube stoves are basically the same is that some of the particulates in the gases exiting the stove are knocked down before the exhaust exits the stove. I wonder if that Flame impingement shield welded in the top of stove causes the gases to take another loopti loop before exiting the flu and some of the particulates get knocked down on top of the baffle plates.

I have seen some stoves with high efficiency ratings not have low grams emission ratings.

Not sure the grams emission rating is the best measurement of how efficient a stove is.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Just because a manufacturer publishes efficiency ratings doesn't mean they are even remotely accurate or hold any value to them.

 

[granpajohn]

My question is, will it be better to put the board directly on the tubes, or up on this perimeter area. I'm guessing on top of the tubes is best, but wanted to see what others thought.

Jon

The Quadrafire board rests directly on the tubes....if that's any help to ya.

 

[Huntindog1]

Just because a manufacturer publishes efficiency ratings doesn't mean they are even remotely accurate or hold any value to them.

Like wise on the grams of emissions.

But I only really take note of the numbers that are from Independent Certified Labs.

But you missed the point of my post is what is the correlation between efficiency and the grams emission number.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Like wise on the grams of emissions.

Agreed.

But I only really take note of the numbers that are from Independent Certified Labs.

Even that can be fudged to show results that you want. Look at the chart that Woodstock published a several months ago.

But you missed the point of my post is what is the correlation between efficiency and the grams emission number.

Hard to say.

The Blaze King Princess and King shows it emits more grams per hour than the Englander 30 or the VC Defiant and their efficiency is 88% (low heat) to 81% (high heat) which is an average of 84%. Meanwhile the Defiant is listed at 84% in cat mode. Does that mean the Defiant is as efficient as the Blaze King? I can confidently say, no.

 

[Huntindog1]

Thanks BrowningBar for the info. I like the NC-30 but still like to learn a few things.