Supercharging the Englander 30...Project OverKill.

[Huntindog1]

I think it makes a nice notable improvement in the operation of the stove. I operated my stove all last year I have a good feel for what to expect from my stove. I like the improved operation of the stove. Its easier to operate and less frustrating. Lets say it makes the stove more forgiving. I have gotten some nice secondaries from some very low air settings. Its been impressive some times.
Its not some huge magical difference we are talking about its more like fine tuning small improvements in the operation of the stove.

Its will get you more of the better operation you see in your parents stove.

I see on average better coals left in the morning and warmer house temps, it just my feel for it but no hard data to back it up, when you operate a stove everyday you have a feel for how things should go from experience.

I would say my stove used to be finicky but is much easier to use now.

 

[BurnIt13]

Thank you for the reply. After X-mas I definitely am going to attempt some or all of this. Maybe after that I will try to superheat the secondary air temperature.

See my prior post #14 for details....I wasn't kidding.

- Mad Scientist.

 

[brian89gp]

Do you think replacing a steel baffle plate that has an insulation blanket on the top with one of these ceramic fiber boards would yeild an improvement?

 

[BurnIt13]

Do you think replacing a steel baffle plate that has an insulation blanket on the top with one of these ceramic fiber boards would yeild an improvement?

Unless I misunderstand you, the Englander 30 already has a ceramic fiber board instead of steel. The stock one is just poorly designed. There are two of them sitting side-by-side and they sit loosely on top of the secondary tubes.

Most people find a way to make them fit better but its still not ideal. The idea is to use two overlapping layers to provide a better seal and to increase the overall insulation properties.

 

[dorkweed]

Guys, I was looking at the primary air inlet on my 13NC last night. I assume the 30NC is the same. Couldn't get real close to it because the stove was running; but I made a discovery.............................the round OAK hook up "box" is not sealed 100% Even if you completely block the round opening, there is still air feeding the stove. Stick a bright light under the stove, and look into the round opening...........you can see light coming thru toward the front side of the stove and the sides.

The primary air enters in this area as well as the "tertiary" air to the secondary tubes. Theoretically, if you seal these gaps up, you can control the primary air and tertiary air from the lever on the front of the stove. More food for thought here.

 

[Huntindog1]

Some stoves have a metal baffle plates that has insulation inside it. Some stoves dont have burn tubes but a secondary air baffle made of stainless steel that the secondary air comes out of.

Adding the ceramic blanket on top of the ceramic rigid board increases the thickness thus increase the R value plusthe ceramic blanket is good for tucking around the edges to make an air tight seal.

There is also heat reflection as radiate heat is reflected back into the box and most of the heat from inside the fire box is radiate heat so reflecting it has alot impact.

I think the Fire Bricks with high Alumina content are the most reflective but not as insulative. That would be reason to insulate behind them with 1/4" ceramic insualtion.

Or use pumice insulating brick and coat them with ITC-100 to make them more reflective.

 

[Huntindog1]

The Oak air is not sealed as its actually the primary air control that controls the primary air into the stove .

But your right if you can seal the oak you may be able to control all the air to the stove from the oak.

 

[Huntindog1]

You might be able to apply these concepts to these wood stoves.

(broken link removed to http://www.engineeredconcepts.com/asac/airdecrease.html)

 

[pen]

So is the plan to make these changes to the stove, and simply assume that they are beneficial because in theory they should be?

Any plans to change things one at a time, and find a way to measure a discernible benefit/loss with each alteration?

If not you are acting as a mad scientist, and won't be able to prove what makes a difference or not.

Nothing against making changes to a design, but you need a real method for measuring the changes effectiveness if you want to do it right.

pen

 

[BrotherBart]

Guys, I was looking at the primary air inlet on my 13NC last night. I assume the 30NC is the same. Couldn't get real close to it because the stove was running; but I made a discovery.............................the round OAK hook up "box" is not sealed 100%

Been waiting five years for somebody to notice that.

 

[Huntindog1]

Look at this research for the effect of hotter secondary air.

Look at Figure 7 and figure 8.

From the below article:
It was found that an increase in combustion air temperature increases the
frequency of the secondary burner being switched on/off
and decreases the difference on the signal temperature and
cycle time to reduce secondary burner fuel consumption at
a factor of 7.7 and 22.9% at preheating air temperatures of
500oC and 1000oC, respectively.

(broken link removed to http://www.thaiscience.info/journals/Article/Effects%20of%20highly%20preheated%20combustion%20air%20on%20characteristics%20of%20burner%20operation%20and%20fuel%20consumption%20in%20controlled-%20air%20incinerator.pdf)

 

[Huntindog1]

This may also give insight to preheated secondary air temps.

Look at the chart on this web page:

(broken link removed)

 

[dorkweed]

Been waiting five years for somebody to notice that.

And I've got a small burn mark on my fivehead to prove it

So what gives with my other thread, "OAK's on Englanders"??? It'd seem that raises yet another question about OAK's on this brand of stove.........................seeing that the manifold (square box where the OAK connects) also feeds the tertiary air to the stove. In essence, you can connect an OAK to these stoves, but there is still inside air being drawn into the stove from this location because it's not 100% sealed!

 

[BurnIt13]

Been waiting five years for somebody to notice that.

Geez....so we have the outside air kit, which is not 100% outside air and draws room air as well. We have the two inlets for the doghouse air, and the rectangular opening for the secondaries. Did Englander's engineers sit down one day and have a competition on who could design a stove with the most holes?

Seriously....5 ways (that we know of) for air to get in.

 

[BrotherBart]

They have to design the stove where it will burn clean even when, as everybody seems to want to do, the primary air control is shoved all the way in. If they didn't the things would never pass the EPA emissions testing which requires that at one point they shove the control all the way in. And it has to continue to burn the wood.

BTW: If you are going to use the term "tertiary air" that would be the air from the doghouse. Round hole = primary air, Square hole = secondary air and doghouse = tertiary air. Busted glass = quaternary air.

 

[dorkweed]

Been waiting five years for somebody to notice that.

What do I win????

 

[mrmojo182]

Jon....the best price I can find for the ITC-100 is $65 and the link is at the bottom of the first post. Augie stated that he has a better price so we'll have to wait for him on that one.

As for the IFB's... be sure to measure not only how thick your existing brick is....but how thick of a brick that will fit. If you need to cut the bricks to the correct width it might not be a bad idea to cut them a 1/4" too thin. That way you can put some ceramic insulation behind the bricks.

What type of stove to you have? And please raise your right hand and promise you will share the results on this thread once you do the modifications!

So here is what I'm going to try. I have an englander 30 by the way right now:
1. add the additional board to the top of my current boards (which are beat now). I will check the difference between getting up to temp times for secondary combustion
2. I think I'm going to try lining the walls of the fire box with the IFB. What I might try instead of cutting them in half is notching the tops, so they fit in the channels on the side and rear, but also stick out in the fire box the additional 1.25 inches. I will do the same here, measure the time it takes for secondary combustion to start. I'm also hoping this will do two things, reduce the size of the firebox (my 30 is too big for my house) and hold the heat longer. I'm not sure what I'm going to do protect these bricks. I was thinking of coating them in refractory compound, or trying the ITC stuff. Anyway, I'm going to measure the weight of the wood to keep it consistent. And I'm going to use the same wood from the same location of the stack.

The biggest thing I would like to do is extend the burn times of the stove. I'm not looking for usable heat, just looking to be able to re-light easy on a good bed of coals after a consistent 10 or 12 hours. I would really love to extend the burn times, but I'm pretty sure the only way to do that is to better control the amount of air entering the stove. With out controlling the air to the stove by some type of thermostatically controlled damper, I don't see how that will work very well. I think these mods will just make it a more efficient burner, that's it.

Maybe I can rig up some type of damper system, have to think about that one for a while. Where is the secondary air fed in by again?

 

[BrotherBart]

The square hole in the bottom back of the stove.

Frankenstove is under construction it appears. It is a good thing Bob Pennington the gentleman that designed the 30 retired a few years ago. He would be in pain reading this.

 

[granpajohn]

... reduce the size of the firebox (my 30 is too big for my house) ...

Never thought of it that way. Modding the stove might be legitimate if it helps to avoid replacing it. I was thinking the firebox could be shrunk by laying a stack of firebricks on the bottom. That way it can still eat long wood.
Just a thought.

 

[pen]

Never thought of it that way. Modding the stove might be legitimate if it helps to avoid replacing it. I was thinking the firebox could be shrunk by laying a stack of firebricks on the bottom. That way it can still eat long wood.
Just a thought.

I've thought about adding firebrick to the sides of the stove for shoulder season in the past, but after playing around more with EW (left to right) burning, I'm liking that more and more and would probably try a layer in the back of the stove if anything.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Anybody have any ideas on what heated primary air would do?

Matt

 

[DexterDay]

Geez....so we have the outside air kit, which is not 100% outside air and draws room air as well. We have the two inlets for the doghouse air, and the rectangular opening for the secondaries. Did Englander's engineers sit down one day and have a competition on who could design a stove with the most holes?

Seriously....5 ways (that we know of) for air to get in.

It's only 4 really and there are reasons behind it...

Did you read that "per-heated" air part? Secondary air and Doghouse need to be preheated. And the OAK... Well, that little gap will almost do nothing. The air for the OAK will still take the path of least resistance. Pretty simple..

Lots of D & R went into the 30. We are not gonna make it better overnight. It's already a super large firebox that burns cleaner than a lot of other stoves.

As Pen said, you can do the experiments. But make sure you know what they do. I would do one at a time and note differences. Although that's still hard to distinguish.

I have Been loading at 9pm and reloading at 5pm after work. I still have a LARGE amount of coals and almost a 200* stove top! No kindling needed. Just 3-5 med splits and then reload at 9pm (FULL load) and then again at 5pm.

I need nothing more from this stove. Burn good wood and have good technique. Englander hit a Homerun with this unit. IMO.

Love mine.

 

[BrotherBart]

Anybody have any ideas on what heated primary air would do?

Matt

It already gets heated traveling under the firebox and up those risers in the front of the firebox before dropping down over the glass.

 

[BrotherBart]

I have Been loading at 9pm and reloading at 5pm after work. I still have a LARGE amount of coals and almost a 200* stove top! No kindling needed. Just 3-5 med splits and then reload at 9pm (FULL load) and then again at 5pm.

I need nothing more from this stove. Burn good wood and have good technique. Englander hit a Homerun with this unit. IMO.

Love mine.

It has been said that I love mine too. Don't get that long of a burn but load it at nine and this barn is 70 or more upstairs on cold nights when my old don't have to go to work ass gets up at nine or ten the next morning. And a few splits on the coals and it is rockin again. The only mods to mine were to compensate for a monster draft from that 21 ft chimney. Well, that and hating that doghouse but that went along with the draft issue.

It is just one hell of a wood stove. And I have had me a few wood stoves.

 

[BrowningBAR]

I have no complaints with the stove. It is serving me well. I like Pen's idea of adding a layer of firebrick to the back of the stove during shoulder season, but I'll be damned if I am going to mess with more stove stuff throughout the burning season.

The stove works. The stove heats. The damn thing is efficient. Good enough for me.