Summit Insert burning too fast and dropping temps quick

[drewmo]

so can someone ID what Im burning? Also.... are my splits too small? Compared to Hogwildz load, my splits seem like they are a lot smaller.

The splits look a little small, and will burn down pretty quick. I'm on year three with my PE insert and find every year brings a different curve ball. It has always burned hot and quick to form coals, but the house is warm and relights are easy. I went with a new wood supplier this year and his splits are a touch smaller than year's past. I worry that I'll over fire, so I keep a close eye on reloads. She gets hot if left alone. Might be time to implement the timer method.

 

[atom631]

so it sounds like it could be a 2 part problem. too small and possibly too wet. is it worth me buying a few bundles of that kiln dried stuff they sell at 7-11 to at least see if i can get it up to temp?

 

[Dix]

Tough for me to tell the species from the photos. Think I see some Maple in there.
Those splits in my opinion, are mostly smalls, and very thin.
By appearance, some of that stuff looks fairly freshly split. But I am going on what I can see.
Are you left with lots of unburnt coals at the end of the burn?
Not so sure on 5 cords, but tough to say given limited view. What is the length x width x height of the stack?

Try digging out 7 or 8 of the largest splits you can find, load the stove full on a nice hot bed of coals and see how that performs.
I have a feeling your issue is both too small of splits and less than dry wood.
4 of those splits will not last very long, but the stove should still reach higher temps with them, just for a shorter period of time.
If it doesn't then I suspect less than dry wood.

Maybe one of our Long Island members can pony up a stove load of good dry wood and see how that performs.
Those splits are way too small for full time heating. That is the stuff they sell to campers around here.
Oh Dixie, any help?

Can do. He's less than 15 minutes from me.

Or a trip to 7 -11 for a bundle or two.

Hogz, Atom got the wood in the spring. We had a great summer for drying firewood, but....


3

 

[Hogwildz]

Sure it is worth it. But if they are small also, do not load the stove full of them, or else you will have the fires from hell in that thing.
At least that will tell you if dry wood preforms properly, but may also show your wood ain't ready.

What you see in my load is typical of my stove loading each time. With splits your size, you will blow through those quickly.

 

[Hogwildz]

Can do. He's less than 15 minutes from me.

Or a trip to 7 -11 for a bundle or two.

Hogz, Atom got the wood in the spring. We had a great summer for drying firewood, but....

But, spring to now ain't much time to dry properly.... There I said it lol

 

[The Cank]

Yup! You want to place small fans on the floor in hallways and doorways pushing cold air towards the stove. It doesnt take much. Cold air is easier to move than warm air.

As in small desk top fans or like free standing rotating fans ? I have both

 

[Dix]

Small desk top is usually all you need.

Think less than $10 USA.

 

[The Cank]

Perfect !! My layout is tough... I have open living room to dining room then off that is kitchen then a hallway and two bedrooms .. Living room an dining room is good but step into the kitchen an WHOO big difference.. also my thermostat is in the hallway and its set on 68 so its kicking on all the time..would love to get some heat to that thing to bring it up a degree or two to keep furnace from coming on....But we got us a record low tonight of 12 degrees so not much I can do about that

 

[Bigg_Redd]

It's easy to get hung up on temps and times and related minutia. . .

There's several issues going on here

1) This is your first winter with this stove (or any stove from what I can gather). You have, literally, nothing to compare this to. This is your formative wood burning experience. With nothing to compare it to "burning too fast" has no meaning. You don't even know what your wood consumption will be for an average year.

2) Forget stove temps. If you already know what you are doing they are a useful diagnostic tool if something is off, but to base any sort of opinion or action plan on 4 months worth of burning and a stove top thermometer is ridiculous. Here's why: there's just too many variables. How dry is your wood? How good is your draft? Where did you place the thermometer? How accurate is the thermometer? How methodical and accurate are your notations? See what I man?



IF (and that's a big "if") you stove is, in fact, over consuming wood (which I doubt) it's because too much air is getting into the firebox. Here are some ways too much air gets to the firebox

1) manufacturing flaw/crack (highly unlikely)

2) too much draft (doubful)

3) failed or mis-applied gasket (entirely possible but still unlikely in a new stove)




I suspect that what the real problem is is the gap between your expectations and what actually is.

 

[atom631]

I suspect that what the real problem is is the gap between your expectations and what actually is.

Ive already accepted that at the end, that could be the reality of this all. However, I would be dumb to rule out all possibilities before I arrive to that conclusion. It would also be extremely disappointing considering that the insert is rated for up to 3000 sq' and my house is under 1600 sq'. I knew heating the back bedrooms was going to be a challenge...but I shouldn't have issues getting the great room heated and with extended burn times...even if my skylights and sliding doors are poorly insulated. As of now, I'm not convinced my expectations were unrealistic. I've done enough research and talked to enough people to know I made the right purchase and should be seeing better results. I absolutely didn't spend enough time researching the intricacies of actually burning the wood. I really thought it was going to be a set and forget type of system. Clearly I was wrong.

Today it is supposed to be cold here on Long Island. Temps in the mid twenties and 20mph winds. Im going to run down and grab a bunch of that kiln dried stuff from 7-11 and pack the stove out with it (over a nice hot bed of coals of course). I dont expect a long burn time, but I am assuming I should see temps over 600 degrees, something I haven't achieved yet. If that is the case..... the problem is wood - basically what everyone has told me thus far. To me, that would be the easiest fix I suppose (assuming I can actually find real seasoned wood this late into fall).

 

[Grisu]

Please be careful placing that dry wood right on top of the coals. I suggest to rake the coals forward towards the door, place about two shorter splits E-W in the back which will create a level surface with the coals. Then load the rest N-S on top if it and the coals. I pack it until it reaches the baffle on the sides and leave a 2" gap in the middle where that center line of air holes is in the baffle. Wait for the wood to ignite, close door, let the flames engulf the wood and then start cutting down the air until the flames start to move slowly. Wait a few minutes for the fire to pick up again, then close again a bit and so on. As long as you get good secondaries in the top without the fire going out, you are good. Over the next 20 to 30 min temps should climb above 500 F.

Not sure if anyone asked that yet but do you have a block-off plate? Would there be room to place some insulation behind the insert?

 

[atom631]

no block off plate was installed. only roxul was stuffed where the old damper was. the insert barely fit in the space. i might have room on the sides for installation but i dont think there is any room in the back.

so to be clear about your packing method - you pack the sides of the box all the way up to just below the baffle. you then pack the middle out, but leave a 2" space all the way down?

 

[Grisu]

Take a look at your baffle. There should be a run of holes running from the front to the back right in the center. That's where a lot of secondary air will come out and hit right on your wood if you pack it too high there. I therefore leave a gap there so that the secondary combustion can take place. The rest of the firebox I fill up.

Think about adding a block-off plate.You may still loose quite a bit of heat up your chimney.

 

[atom631]

i have a friend with a summit insert who installed his own block off plate. he came over and took a look and thought that it would be extremely difficult to get one installed in my chimney. the old damper was actually sealed between bricks (im guessing whenever it was redone) so removal of it is impossible. the insert only has about 2" gap where it slides into the opening. he wasnt sure how we could get our hands in there to attach the liner once the unitl is slide into place.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

2 dumb questions here, but I must ask

1) Is your house warm? That's the number that really counts.

2) I've read no discussion about your blower. I'm assuming it's installed and working properly, no?

3) I just reviewed this whole thread and saw the pic of your wood pile and it does look like it was split into match sticks - maybe 1/4 the size I would have split them.

 

[atom631]

the house, for the most part does get warm. once the stove has been burning for a few hours, it gets above 70 in the great room, but never above 75 and it hasnt been that cold yet. the living room will get warm too and about 1/2 down the hall. the master bedroom does not get that warm at all.

the blower is working and on full blast in order to make the place warm. without it, the house doesnt warm up too much. one thing i did mention and im not sure, but the blower air comes from under the over hang on the top of the stove and blows straight down across the glass. the older summits have a gap in the surround above the top of the stove where the air comes from. that to me seems like a better design as it blows the air out into the room and not straight down. im not sure mine is 100% installed properly, but it looks ok

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Go get a couple boxes of bio-bricks just to rule out your wood supply as the problem. If they burn fine then it's your wood. I'd skip the gas station bundled - still too many variables.

That is odd about the blower. I've never heard of any MFG getting cute with the direction like that. Might be worth finding out if it's supposed to be like that.

 

[Bcurley]

Atom, where on Long Island are you? I am in West Islip. I just installed a Heat n Glo Northstar, got a cord of "seasoned "wood delivered and am having a hard time burning it. The wood is definitely not seasoned enough as I can hear hissing and see bubbling on the sides when burning. I have been reading and most issues with burning are wood that is not seasoned enough. I am looking to get another cord of wood that is more seasoned and I will let this one sit for a year. I purchased a moisture meter and tested the wood. Most of it is coming in at 22-24% and I haven't cut it open, so its got to be worse on the inside. I have been reading that you want to physically inspect the wood prior to purchasing and test it as well. I am on the quest for some real seasoned wood. I will let you know if I get my hands on some.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

I have been reading that you want to physically inspect the wood prior to purchasing and test it as well.

Actually, what you want to do is buy next year's wood right now (or 6 months ago). The odds of finding truly dry wood for sale are slim.

 

[Grisu]

Go get a couple boxes of bio-bricks just to rule out your wood supply as the problem. If they burn fine then it's your wood. I'd skip the gas station bundled still - still too many variables.

Agree. That store wood is heat-treated to kill bugs; not to dry it out. Plus, I have seen it stored outside and being rained on and those plastic bundles are rarely water-tight.

That is odd about the blower. I've never heard of any MFG getting cute with the direction like that. Might be worth finding out if it's supposed to be like that.

That's the new model C. I suspect that change was mainly done to reduce mantel clearance and maybe to hide the "hole" over the body.

 

[setitonfire]

I'm in my second year with the Summit. I'm still a novice but your wood looks too wet. Maybe I missed it in the thread but have you purchased a moisture meter? I had some of the same problems in my first year. The outside of my wood measured 20% but inside was soaking wet, 38% an up. The MM is a must for a newbie. Also, I don't ever put the blower on HI. It seems to cool the air quicker. Last year, not knowing any better I burned up all my 3 year seasoned Oak early in the season. I struggled the rest of the year. I gathered a lot of Silver Maple,Poplar and Oak over the summer. The maple and poplar dry very fast so I'm using it as my fuel this season. I can get 7-8 hours of burn time if I load big splits overnight. Don't stress or regret your purchase. This stove is a monster when it's feed with the proper fuel. My jaw dropped when I read Hogz post that his stove will hit 700 for an hour. I can't wait for my oak to season right. It will take time to get where you want to be. You have to accept that. If you weren't stocking up on wood prior to your purchase, your going to have to play catch up for a few years. If you can source some softwood now for next season you'll see a big difference in your burn times and heat output.

I have the C model as well and don't have any issues with the direction of the blower output.

 

[jreed]

I dont have a summit but have an englander and had a lot of the same problems last year that you are. My remedy was dry wood...made a world of difference. I cut about 12 or more cords over the summer along with what I had left over from the previous year. In addition, I bought a moisture meter. Right now I am burning wood with right around 12% moisture and it is burning much better than it ever has.

I would agree with hogwildz....if that stove was burning correctly it would probably heat you out of that room.

 

[atom631]

i did purchase a moisture meter and the average readings have been 18%-23%. I know thats not too great and Im probably burning up the wood before it can actually produce good heat. I think coupled with the fact that the splits are small and I have a double-edged sword.

Do any Long Islanders know where we can get bio-bricks? I dont think Ive ever seen something like that for sale locally.

 

[atom631]

Let me add this...

this morning I got up around 6am and got the stove going from a cold-start. I added a chunk of duraflame, some bark and a few very small, light splits. I got the stove up to around 450 degrees and got a decent base of coals. At around 7am I then packed the stove out... I put the smaller stuff on the bottom figurinh it would catch quicker and get the bigger stuff going. I didnt snap a pic of the load right when I put it in...stupid.

The first pic is at 7:58am. The fire was just getting really good. Stove temp had dropped to around 400 during this time and started to creep back up. Probably close to 450 again in that pic. You can see that there is a good 4" or more gap between the top of the wood and and baffle. The smaller stuff had already started to break apart within that hour.

The 2nd pic is 9:52am. The middle splits were starting to breakdown. Stove climbed to 500 and hung there for a while (maybe 1 1/2hr). I had a good secondary burn going as well.

The 3rd pic was just a few minutes ago at 10:49am. Im left with a lot of chunks and its burning very slow. Temp has dropped down to about 460.

My great room went from 65 degrees at 6am to 74 degrees at 11am.

 

[Grisu]

Do any Long Islanders know where we can get bio-bricks? I dont think Ive ever seen something like that for sale locally.

http://originalbiobricks.com/buy
Envi blocks can be found at Tractor Supply should be one near to you.