Stove Burning Too Hot...

[Chuck the Canuck]

sorry it doesn't work that way .. IR guns can be off depending on reflective area measured.

Hey CY, I just did the test:



Even though it looks like I got pretty good results, I have to admit that the longer I kept measuring the worse the numbers got as the ice melted; perhaps this is what you meant by the reflective area confounding results?

 

[_CY_]

Hey CY, I just did the test:

View attachment 128964 View attachment 128965

Even though it looks like I got pretty good results, I have to admit that the longer I kept measuring the worse the numbers got as the ice melted; perhaps this is what you meant by the reflective area confounding results?

IR temp gun is good for certain type surfaces, but result varies with reflective value of surface measured.
for higher temps accuracy to +/- 1f degree is not important .. I'd worry more about being within 25f degrees.
it's not uncommon for higher temp thermometers to be 100f to 200f or more off

there's nothing wrong with using IR temp gun to measure say exit air temps, stove tops or what ever.

if you measure same surface with a know to be correct digital pyrometer and/or a calibrated dial thermometer .. then you know how far off and/or accurate your IR gun is showing. consistency is the key ... point IR gun at same location, at same distance for reliable reads.

 

[msherer]

Hello Canuck, I had the same issues as you and the damper solved my problem as well. The EPA stove is so much different than my old unit and it has been a learning experience to say the least. I have to pay close attention when loading the stove because at times it will take off. I just noticed today that the top of my new Vogelzang has a slight dip in it where our water dragon sits which tells me it has been over fired. Last night I got up about a 1/2 hour after my wife loaded the stove and noticed the top of the stove was slightly glowing so I adjusted the damper and the temp came down to about 775. We have some habits we have to break with respect to our old stove and need to frequently monitor the stove temp until we master the operation.

 

[Chuck the Canuck]

Hello Canuck, I had the same issues as you and the damper solved my problem as well. The EPA stove is so much different than my old unit and it has been a learning experience to say the least. I have to pay close attention when loading the stove because at times it will take off.

Well the damper sure has made me feel a lot better about loading the stove. I'm using it pretty much every time I fill up the stove. After I finish shutting down the air completely, I usually have about 10-15 minutes where the flames and secondaries are nice and lazy, but then they start picking up and then start really rolling and roaring; if I don't shut the key damper on the flue at (or just before) this point the stove really takes off and I end up with a stove top climbing towards 800° really fast...... I'm going to invest in some kind of digital readout (similar to the Auber) that I can use to monitor my stove top temp so that I don't have to keep jumping up and running over to the stove with the IR gun, just to help make things easier. I'm also playing with the idea of data logging a few overnight burns and plotting it all out on Excel, just because I think it would be cool. Pics to follow....

Cheers

 

[ailanthus]

I've found that to get those ideal 'lazy secondaries' in cold weather like we've been having, after getting up to temperature, I have to close the key damper completely along with blocking about 50% of the rear air intake. This is not with an unusual chimney, either (~26' insulated). I think you'll find that judiciously using the key damper will really help you get more heat out of each load.

 

[smokedragon]

Oakster, no I didn't get the blower when I purchased the stove. I thought about ordering one a week or so back when I started to get frustrated with the potential overfiring, but then I found out they want $280 plus tax for one. The pedestal fan I have in the basement does a pretty good job of cooling down the stove top when it starts getting too hot. I guess I was really starting to question why the stove wanted to over fire all the time, and it seemed to me that an over active draft was the most likely culprit. I'm in complete agreement with you about running the stove top between 600-700 F, and even pretty comfortable with it running up to 725-750 F but, Holy Hannah, it just kept wanting to go higher and higher and higher..... I'm hoping the key damper is going to help keep it from taking off like that. I have to admit I'll be happy to replace this stove in the off season with a new one. It's just a wee titch too small for what I've been asking it to do, although it's done an admirable job. My electric bill this past three months (for November, January and February) has dropped down to the same as it is for the summer months, so I've been saving a bundle there. The goal for the new stove will be to upgrade in terms of quality and user friendliness. I'll probably leave the key damper in for at least the next heating season just in case it's required.

Pics of the key damper:

In this weather is there really such a thing as too hot?

As an aside, a tip given to me by another user is to put a magnetic thermometer on your stove top. I have one, and put a finish nail with the head sitting on the back of the thermometer. When I return to look at my stove, the nail is sitting where the maximum temperature was, even though the needle has moved down. Once you get the stove where you don't feel the need to baby sit, but you still want to know the max temp it hit. You might be able to see it in this picture. Forgive the dirty stove and the missing top cover. I pulled the top cover off to take a measurement (in the market for a new stove).

 

[smokedragon]

Don't even think about putting a baro damper in a wood stove pipe.

Start closing down the air sooner and get over waiting for "secondaries". Run the stove based on the stove top temp. Not bullshit that you read here about secondary burn. Run the stove at temps to heat your house. And not to melt the stove. Not some fantasy about secondary burn.

BB, I have read many of your posts, and you really seem like a no nonsense guy........but if you are going to say "don't do blah", can you please say why?? It would help folks like me who get one recommended to them.......

Thanks

 

[Chuck the Canuck]

I've found that to get those ideal 'lazy secondaries' in cold weather like we've been having, after getting up to temperature, I have to close the key damper completely along with blocking about 50% of the rear air intake. This is not with an unusual chimney, either (~26' insulated). I think you'll find that judiciously using the key damper will really help you get more heat out of each load.

Well I have been trying to contain myself, but now that you mention getting more heat out of each load, I'm pretty darn sure my burn times have increased quite substantially, and I'm sure that temperature fluctuations in the house overall have evened out quite significantly since I started using the key damper! So aside from the cool factor of data logging temps just because I can, I want to see some hard numbers that will show how my stove is running over extended periods of time.... And you know what's really really really cool? I'm having fun running my stove again instead of stressing over it

Cheers

 

[BrotherBart]

BB, I have read many of your posts, and you really seem like a no nonsense guy........but if you are going to say "don't do blah", can you please say why?? It would help folks like me who get one recommended to them.......

Thanks

The point mostly is that none of the non-cats were designed to be stacked up to the baffle and blasted off to high temps and then slammed down. Watching blasting fire in front of the secondary air tubes is great entertainment but it just rapidly torches that stuff sitting on top, sends stove and flue temps to the moon and wastes wood too soon. Loads with dry wood, sufficient space between it and the baffle like the stove designed to burn, and paying attention to establishing a consistent burn on the wood, not at the baffle, produces a steady burn. With just as long a burn time and less stress and hair raising stove temps for an hour or so.

And with less than dry wood it can get really exciting because while that stuff up top is getting incinerated the stuff under is is steadily drying out. And about the time you think the stove is settling down, all hell breaks looks.

My point is that you manage the primary burn on the wood, not bake it into a coal pile too soon. Manage the primary air and the burn. Not treat it like a cat stove.

 

[Jags]

And just one little thing to add...Just because your tubes aren't rolling a river of fire doesn't mean they ain't working. Take a look at your stack. No smoke = good burn.

 

[Kosmik]

BB, I have read many of your posts, and you really seem like a no nonsense guy........but if you are going to say "don't do blah", can you please say why?? It would help folks like me who get one recommended to them.......

Thanks

If you have a chimney fire, that baro is going to stay wide open the whole burn. People on here say they are just for wood furnaces. I know, seems like a great answer, VZ sells them as accessories to my stove...But the safety concern is warranted.

And with less than dry wood it can get really exciting because while that stuff up top is getting incinerated the stuff under is is steadily drying out. And about the time you think the stove is settling down, all hell breaks looks.

The second push has sent mine into overfire mode a few times. Last one I put too much flat pieces of pine over too big coals, and she was off... At least now when it's cruising 500-600 I can tell by looking at the fire and secondaries if she's staying awhile or on her way to the top.

Well, just picked up a 6" key damper (better to have and not need, than need and not have), but on further inspection, door gasket needs replacing/recementing after 2mos use...
So yeah, they still cheap out where they can (VZ).
Won't be buying another, be getting something nice when it ain't going in a rental.
Probably something designed with burning pine in mind (as VZ states to 'ONLY use hardwoods'), after having it run away I can see why.

But perhaps the re-gasketing will fix things, but might as well install the damper too. I'd rather close that than: pull out burning log, stuff every orifice with foil or snuff with sand (I tried opening the door all the way, didn't work for me).

 

[ddahlgren]

A probe type stack thermometer is the only way to fly and don't be surprised when the numbers are double what you read on the surface.

 

[smokedragon]

But perhaps the re-gasketing will fix things

If you are burning through wood too fast, or notice temps that are too high, burn seems uncontrollable........let the fire go out and do the dollar bill test on all for sides of your door. With a hot reload, it is amazing how much air that stove can suck through a bad door gasket.

I don't own a stove with secondaries, but I imagine you shut down your air and it is still getting some secondary burn air (to burn clean). Now with a door leak, you are feeding (unintentionally) more primary air......I can see how that becomes an off to the races scenario. If you put in a new door gasket and a key damper, that will slow any stove down.

 

[Chuck the Canuck]

If you put in a new door gasket and a key damper, that will slow any stove down.

This combination fix certainly worked for me! Controlled burns and extended burn times rule!

 

[lindnova]

On my PE Spectrum it wants to run away and burn too fast with dry wood under 20%. With 25% moisture it has a hard time keeping going at 1/4 air and black glass and sometimes would take off after a while. I have a 30 ft insulated chimney. With this cold winter I kept having it run away and the probe in the stove pipe would easily get to 1400° so I had to burn half loads and still was too hot. I found out here on hearth my problem was called the Florida Bungalow Syndrome - look it up. I ended up modifying the stopper to be able to shut down the air completely. It is a thick steel tab welded on, but I was able to bend it with some muscle. Now I can completely control my burn and shut it at night with a full load coaled up good and have a slow burn with all the coals burned down the next day.

While I was up on the roof inspecting the chimney before I modified the damper I noticed a lot of warm air coming out, but the stove was cold and shut. Another benefit to closing the damper completely. If I am not burning now very little heat is going up the stack compared to the factory setting.

Everyone here is always talking about the stove top temp. I have all this sheet metal around the stove top and a trivet for cooking, so the IR thermometer is my only option for temp on stove. I usually read around 400 on front and top when it is real hot. If it is hotter than that the stack is likely way too hot for me. Every stove is different. I have double wall stove pipe thermometer. I keep the temp between 600-900° when cruising. At those stack temps, the stove top and front is usually closer to 350°. This is with no fan, but it sure does warm up my house good.

 

[ddahlgren]

lindnova I think you are going to find as you shut the air down for a slow burn the stove top is going to get a lot hotter. When my stack is very hot the stove is very cold as all the heat going up the chimney if 700 stack 350 stove if 550 stack 650 stove. Personally I think you have air leaking somewhere or bypassing the baffle / cat. To be candid the dollar bill test is interesting but not 100% in my mind. I am not familiar with the stove but found it on the net and I would wonder if the bottom ash door is not sealing all the way.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Iv had the 30 on various height flues on the past 5 years and it never overheated, even when on a 30Ft tall flue. Same with the Harman 300-TL .Always controllable with the primary air setting. Lowest primary air setting always kept temps reasonable. In my experience anyway.

 

[lindnova]

lindnova I think you are going to find as you shut the air down for a slow burn the stove top is going to get a lot hotter. When my stack is very hot the stove is very cold as all the heat going up the chimney if 700 stack 350 stove if 550 stack 650 stove. Personally I think you have air leaking somewhere or bypassing the baffle / cat. To be candid the dollar bill test is interesting but not 100% in my mind. I am not familiar with the stove but found it on the net and I would wonder if the bottom ash door is not sealing all the way.

Door is tight. Bottom ash door is tight - don't use it for that reason - ash gets stuck in it and it won't close all the way. There is some leakage at the back of the baffle and I installed a new gasket, but it still leaks some although it is leaking after the shutter so it shouldn't make much difference. I haven't checked the stovetop temp while hot and cruising for a while. Been going off the flue. After my modification it has been burning great and even with the shutter door 100% shut it still sucks air in and burns nice with a full load now. My tall interior chimney sure sucks a lot of draft. I have never had any backpuffing when loading yet this year. Light a match and go.

 

[ddahlgren]

Maybe you need a damper in the flue pipe to slow down the draft a bit. If it does not have an outdoor air kit don't forget all that air going up the chimney is air you heated and more cold make up has to get into the house to replace it. I personally do not like the idea that the stove will not close to the point that the fire can get very close to out. If you ever had a chimney fire you are terminally screwed with what you have.

 

[smokedragon]

I ended up modifying the stopper to be able to shut down the air completely. It is a thick steel tab welded on, but I was able to bend it with some muscle. Now I can completely control my burn and shut it at night with a full load coaled up good and have a slow burn with all the coals burned down the next day.

But now I'll bet the stove doesn't meet EPA emissions standards. I have read about many stoves that just will not allow the air to be turned all the way down.

That is one thing I like about my old stove........if you close the drafts all the way and the fire doesn't smolder out to basically nothing, you have a leaky door gasket.

 

[smokedragon]

I personally do not like the idea that the stove will not close to the point that the fire can get very close to out. If you ever had a chimney fire you are terminally screwed with what you have.

+1 to that

 

[Kosmik]

But now I'll bet the stove doesn't meet EPA emissions standards. I have read about many stoves that just will not allow the air to be turned all the way down.

As I said before, they'd rather your house burn down than pollute.
Hopefully they'll start some focus on: labeling of fuel, education and real world results (not lab) to further the cause.

It's easier to just say "Hey manufacturers, here meet this."
They'd actually have to go out, set up instruments and talk to people to get real world results of their 'emissions standards'.
But probably more effective at reducing pollution if they engage the whole supply chain and spend more time on education. Funny all the 'how-to' vids have to come from Canada. There must not be the budget here for them to hire some grad students to spend a year learning how to operate one and video log it.

 

[smokedragon]

As I said before, they'd rather your house burn down than pollute.

+1 to that

 

[lindnova]

. If you ever had a chimney fire you are terminally screwed with what you have.

I should have stated that I can shut it down closed when it is very hot with coaling wood. If I turn it down all the way in the early part of a burn it will smother it. The lowest setting from the factory has about 25% of the inlet open. Now that is bad if you have a chimney fire. I still burn at about 20-25% open most of the time. If it gets too hot I can now turn it down as needed when I have a big dry load starting to go nuclear.

I'm sure it is not EPA approved anymore, but how can you run a stove that is uncontrollable? Still runs nice and clean as long as I operate it properly with dry wood.

 

[smokedragon]

but how can you run a stove that is uncontrollable

Totally agree......just that some manufacturers seem to only care about the easiest way to meet the EPA guidelines.