Sorry, Another newb wood boiler question(s) Help.

[gregV]

Thanks Miller'. Great to know. How is your Tarm set up?

OK, I MUST get this all in and running by the end of this week, if not sooner. So, I am torn between these two setups.

W = domestic hot water
F = Oil Boiler
H = Water to air heat exchangers.
T = Tarm

This one...
(broken image removed)

To 'me', being a complete newbe here seems best because my Tarm is preheating everything before in enters my system. Thinking that if needed that my domestic water circulator could act as either a continuous flow or an overheat circulator. (that gray box being the Honeywell) . To me this would be not only keeping the oil boiler hot, but also store hot water in the domestic tank. ???

Then this, suggested and used by Paul.....

Sweet easy hookup is a plus here. I would do this for sure, but what concerns me is that the hot water from the Tarm is being cooled when the heat calls for the circulators to be on, by the return water mixing with the hot Tarm water before entering the oil boiler. Would this then not make my oil boiler want to turn on in order to get the temp up? Or is this mixture what I need and still hot enough for the boiler not to call for the burner to start up?

As soon as U hear some good answers I will get TO IT! I'm excited to get this up and going!
Thanks everyone!

 

[Gasifier]

Greg, good luck on the install man. I hope it works out good for you. I don't like the idea of the boiler on your first floor because of the smoke issue/fire issue and family health. But if you have to do it like that then that can be solved. Can you rig up some kind of exhaust fan/hood combo in that room to vent it outside? I also read your post and with your other smoke issues maybe and inexpensive air cleaner that you could run several hours of the day would help as well. We bought one from Wal-mart a few years ago and the stuff that gets collected in the filters of that thing is amazing. We change the filters every other month. The other thing I noticed was all the combustibles in that room. The paper facing on the insulation will go up like a match. But, I am assume you are going to sheetrock and eliminate the fire hazard on the floors, walls, and ceiling though. However, I always remember the old Benny Hill show, did you ever see it? Benny once pointed out on a chalk board that you should not ASSUME because you might make an ASS out of U and ME! :lol: Anyway, just want you and the fam to be safe. Just a few things for you to consider if you haven't yet. Good luck man and keep us posted.

 

[willworkforwood]

... but what concerns me is that the hot water from the Tarm is being cooled when the heat calls for the circulators to be on, by the return water mixing with the hot Tarm water before entering the oil boiler. Would this then not make my oil boiler want to turn on in order to get the temp up? ...

The answer is most likely yes right now, depending on what your OB settings are. BUT, the very easy solution is to drop the HI/LO settings down, in order to stop the OB from firing when the zones open. However, you do not want to allow the OB to actually run regularly with these settings. If you go away and need to use oil, then set them back up to the current settings. One small catch to this is that wood boilers (without storage) are not "on demand" - if you fall behind, and the WB doesn't have a good, hot fire going, it will probably take some time to get things back up to temp (unless you have a better half, who "suggests" using the OB to help out :lol

 

[millerblt]

Greg, My boiler is 100' from the house in a little room in my wood shed. This sound like the setup you will eventually build for yourself it keeps the mess outside and makes for less wood handling. The hot water from the boiler runs through a heat exchanger in my forced hot air plenum. The pump runs continuously and the fan runs when the thermostat calls for heat. I am currently working on a heat storage tank to make things more efficient.

 

[gregV]

Gasafire, Thanks for that input, but I think it was Abbot and Costello that may have first did the ASS U ME in one of their war support movies ;-)

Yes, the walls will be sheet rocked and the boiler is sitting on concrete board. As far as smoke, .. well this is a very old house and it needs that smoke to keep the ghost happy I think. It's just part of life living in such a home. Remember, this is not a sealed up modern stress skin construction home. This house 'breaths' as I prefer. Also, no worries about kids and whatnot as they are off on their own and I live alone at this time.

 

[gregV]

The answer is most likely yes right now, depending on what your OB settings are. BUT, the very easy solution is to drop the HI/LO settings down, in order to stop the OB from firing when the zones open. However, you do not want to allow the OB to actually run regularly with these settings. If you go away and need to use oil, then set them back up to the current settings. One small catch to this is that wood boilers (without storage) are not "on demand" - if you fall behind, and the WB doesn't have a good, hot fire going, it will probably take some time to get things back up to temp (unless you have a better half, who "suggests" using the OB to help out :lol

So, you like the second sketch then?

 

[willworkforwood]

So, you like the second sketch then?

Yes, definitely. A variable speed circ (Grundfos 58, etc) would allow fine tuning the flow between the 2 boilers. An Alpha would also work and save in the long run, but more $$ upfront. Use the largest pipe size compatible with both boilers. Good luck - I think you will get it done!

 

[Gasifier]

Gasafire, Thanks for that input, but I think it was Abbot and Costello that may have first did the ASS U ME in one of their war support movies ;-)

Yes, the walls will be sheet rocked and the boiler is sitting on concrete board. As far as smoke, .. well this is a very old house and it needs that smoke to keep the ghost happy I think. It's just part of life living in such a home. Remember, this is not a sealed up modern stress skin construction home. This house 'breaths' as I prefer. Also, no worries about kids and whatnot as they are off on their own and I live alone at this time.

:lol: Yes, they were good as well. I use to watch them all the time as a kid. My house breaths a little to. Around a few door seals and a few spots left in the house with poor insulation. A little fresh air does not hurt anyone.

Hey, why not a T above the oil boiler and at your return so that the heat from the wood boiler goes by the oil boiler. A little more efficient, the wood boiler would not be shutting down as much when your oil boiler is up to temp. When we hooked up my set up we installed a simple loop so that wood boiler hot water goes past oil boiler and feeds manifolds and returns to wood boiler or storage, wherever it comes from. If they are off line(cold), and the oil boiler kicks on and the circulation pump just above oil boiler and below the T turns on and feeds the same loop and returns to boiler. Just an idea. Might get less idleing on wood side and that boiler will stay a little more efficient. And the oil boiler will turn on less. Good luck to you man. And have fun burning.

 

[gregV]

OK,
So drawing is what I am doing.

D= Domestic water
B= Oil Burner
T= Tarm wood Boiler
Yellow circles are existing three speed circulators.
Green circle is Taco 007

In reading this thread, POST 4 .. It sound like I can make the Taco 007 variable speed. Correct?
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/80663/

My questions are:

1. If I get call on two or three of my existing yellow circulators, will the green Taco choke needed water flow though the Tarm?
Edited... in looking at it, it may make no difference, Right?

2. Do I need a second pressurized water fill being I already have one in line at the oil boiler?

 

[__dan]

OK,
So drawing is what I am doing.

D= Domestic water
B= Oil Burner
T= Tarm wood Boiler
Yellow circles are existing three speed circulators.
Green circle is Taco 007

In reading this thread, POST 4 .. It sound like I can make the Taco 007 variable speed. Correct?
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/80663/

My questions are:

1. If I get call on two or three of my existing yellow circulators, will the green Taco choke needed water flow though the Tarm?
Edited... in looking at it, it may make no difference, Right?

2. Do I need a second pressurized water fill being I already have one in line at the oil boiler?

Greg, whatever you do, don't skimp on the pressure relief valve piping. It's pretty easy to make steam and blow open the PRV. Make sure the PRV goes to a drain. I don't know what to recommend. I do know that the controls make a big difference once the piping is operable. For example, if the zones are satisfied and the circs shutdown, the Tarm may not like going from firing with a load to a no load condition in a short period of time. I cannot recommend something because of the expense and long term payback of doing it right. Just food for thought, it the controls shut down the Tarm, if it is rated for idling, and continued running the circs and fan blowers, you would have a cool down period and load while the tarm idles. The job done right is a long term capital investment. The alternatives are unthinkable.

Your heart is in the right place. Still, you could make steam and freeze at the same time.

Just the controls package is four digits.

Just saying, the guys I've worked with always did big stuff, no residential, and there were always steam and water volcanoes on the first firing.

I would say more but would be afraid to find myself in the hole and have to stop digging.

 

[BoilerBob]

Greg,
From the pics on your first post, it looks like 1.5" pipe you will connect to the tarm. Which is plenty of water to supply your 3 circs if they all want heat at the same time.
You also seem nervous about the return going to the oil boiler, and cooling that water first and the oil burner firing up to heat it up. But don't forget it is being mixed with hot wood boiler water. I know the plumbing seems weird, I wanted to change mine when I first saw it, then I figured I would try it. You should definitely lower the hi/lo on the oil boiler. If you don't the oil will always be keeping wood boiler at temperature and it will be idling a lot. I just shut the power off to the oil boiler, and I only put it on when I will be away for more than 1 day.

Paul

 

[benjamin]

Looks good enough to me. If I were putting this boiler in temporarily, I'd plumb it in the easiest way based on your existing layout.

Just make sure you can and do get the air out and it will work fine.

 

[gregV]

Dan, ... great points and I'm glad you made them. I will absolutely tend to this issue with what is needed. I have several schematics of doing this I think.

Paul, yes, that was my concern. Actually the pipe on my existing boiler is 1.25 so I was going with that. The Tarm has 1.5" coming out, but were downsized to 1.25 a very long time ago and I'm not sure that removing those adapters is wise cause they are quite rusted in. But if it's better to stay with 1.5" until I adapt to the 1.25 at the OB, then I will do so.

Ben, yes, will do wit the air removal.

Thanks everyone. Spent yesterday seeing who had what, so today the install starts. I will also need to put in a Y filter as I am sure this Tarm will shed a ton of rust at first.

 

[willworkforwood]

How about piping some kind of a stubbed-out loop with shutoffs on the Tarm supply to the OB? Then after you're up and running you could drop in some used or discarded fin tube or big radiators for a dump zone. As Dan said, a blow over (especially on the main floor) is not a happy thought. Your 2 main concerns are a blow over due to a large heat supply with nowhere to go (all zones staying closed); and also one caused by a power outage (i.e. no circulation). Along with the emitters, you can add some type of NC valve, opening on overtemp or loss of power, sending the hot stuff into the dump zone.

 

[mattd860]

Greg - I read through this thread and wanted to offer a rather simple solution. I fear you may be over complicating the plumbing just a bit. You final design will work but I think you should consider the pipe routing that I did last year when I installed my wood boiler. I took your EXISTING drawing layout on page one and edited it appropriately to reflect MY system. Simply put, all you need to do is pipe the wood boiler OUT to the oil boiler OUT. Then pipe the oiler boiler IN piping to the wood boiler IN. Also note the circulator pump and the check valves.

This allows hot water from the WOOD boiler to go directly to the zones and domestic hot water heater without needing to go through the oil boiler. Hot water from the wood boiler will also be allowed to circulate through the oil boiler to keep it warm.

In my humble opinion, I think you will experience too much heat loss on your latest revision/design because you will be mixing cooler water from the water heater and zones with the heated water from the boiler. My design will force ALL return (or cooled) water through the wood boiler to be heated again. Also, when the wood boiler is turned off, the check valves will allow normal operation of the oil boiler and prevent the oil boiler from heating the wood boiler. When the wood boiler is turned off, the circulator should also be turned off.

Am I making any sense? I am by no means an expert but I just wanted to humbly offer a design that replicates my system. My system works very well for my 2600sf drafty home with my wood boiler placed 30ft away from the oil boiler. Whichever design you choose to go with I wish you the best of luck and the most money saved!

(broken image removed)

 

[gregV]

Yes Matt, makes complete sense . A bit harder to install as I will have to remove and replace a lot of the existing in order to thread in the "T"s , but I do like it and unless someone here sees big issues, it's maybe what I will do.

I bought parts so I can have a heat dump/overheat zone also. Not sure but just may make it some baseboard in the basement for now. I have to ponder this a bit.

Thanks all!!

 

[mattd860]

Greg - a dump zone is a great idea. In addition, you could turn on all your heating zones if the boiler overheats. The zones will act as a dump zone. All you need to do is wire in a relay to each of the circulator pumps (or circulator relays). I use these relays - http://ribrelays.com/Products/Pilot-Relays/RIBU1C.html.

What are you using for controls to control the main circulator pump between the two boilers, aquastat, etc?

 

[mattd860]

You shouldn't need to add any tees if you don't want to. Just remove the pipe caps and tie in right there. See Below. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here - but I don't think I am. Don't forget to add the check valves where necessary

(broken image removed)

 

[mattd860]

Greg - I thought about it for a second and realized you will need an electric ZONE VALVE as noted in the drawing below. Otherwise, water may flow through the wood boiler if its off which will cause the oil boiler to work harder than it needs to when it's on. You will only need a zone valve if you tie into the capped ends of the supply & return trunks. If you decide to TEE in where I show on my first diagram, you can just use the check valves.

You could just put a simply manual ball valve where I show the zone valve and simply close the valve when you let the wood fire die out.

(broken image removed)

 

[gregV]

Matt, .. So then what I am doing is reversing water flow through my OB with my Tarm continious circulator? Basically my same idea but in reverse it seems. Not adding "T"s is a good thing.


Matt, this is exactly what I was thinking, ..using my existing circulators to kick on as dump zones. Can one circulator have more then one calling demand?

 

[mattd860]

"So then what I am doing is reversing water flow through my OB with my Tarm continious circulator?" --- Yes. When the wood boiler is hot and the circulator turns on, water will now flow backwards through the oil boiler. No big deal at all.

"Can one circulator have more then one calling demand?" Yes. Just wire another 120v wire to the circulator(s). Or find a way to trip the relay that controls the circulator(s). Are your circulators on/off or variable speed?

 

[ewdudley]

Greg - I thought about it for a second and realized you will need an electric ZONE VALVE as noted in the drawing below. Otherwise, water may flow through the wood boiler if its off which will cause the oil boiler to work harder than it needs to when it's on. You will only need a zone valve if you tie into the capped ends of the supply & return trunks. If you decide to TEE in where I show on my first diagram, you can just use the check valves.

You could just put a simply manual ball valve where I show the zone valve and simply close the valve when you let the wood fire die out.

Definitely on the right track now.

Earlier in the thread there was some concern about return temperature protection. With continuous pumping through the two boilers it should simple enough to disable the load circulators whenever the boilers just start to get a little too cool, then the boiler loop keeps going maintaining even temperatures through the boilers until they're hot enough to enable the load circs again. There's a fair amount of thermal mass there so it should cycle slowly enough. The continuous boiler loop flow mixes with the system return water and help minimize any thermal shock potential.

 

[gregV]

Been working. Chimney all done yesterday, easy peasy.
Today did all the piping down around the oil burner and will finish the Tarm section and should have it ready to run by tomorrow evening. Waiting for a Y strainer to come in tomorrow morning.
Pics below. Please speak up if you see any issues so far.
Arrows on the first pic just show flow. The red arrows on the second photo are TEEs I put in and am thinking that I will run a 1" copper line connecting them with a check valve so the water can only be drawn up to the Tarm IF the existing three zone circulators need more flow then the Taco 007 permit's.

Questions. I want to put the Y strainer on the hot water out line of the Tarm first, before anything else. Just after that will be the pressure relief valve. Then to the air bleeder and expansion tank. OK to have the Y strainer before the pressure relief? Just want to try and keep grit out of everything as I'm sure I will be picking up a lot from this older Tarm.

Second. This Tarm also has a domestic hot water line running through it. Should I be utilizing this for anything, or would that be redundant and just draw too much heat?

 

[ewdudley]

The red arrows on the second photo are TEEs I put in and am thinking that I will run a 1" copper line connecting them with a check valve so the water can only be drawn up to the Tarm IF the existing three zone circulators need more flow then the Taco 007 permit's.

If the zone circs draw more than the boil-to-boiler circ, won't they just pull through the Buderus? Which wouldn't be a problem, would it?

OK to have the Y strainer before the pressure relief?

Seems doubtful that having anything before the relief would pass code. I thought the relief normally has its own port on the boiler.

Second. This Tarm also has a domestic hot water line running through it. Should I be utilizing this for anything, or would that be redundant and just draw too much heat?

If you have reliable city water then you might be able to use the Tarm DHW coil as a fail-safe cool-off circuit like the European boilers have, maybe even eliminate a passive dump zone, just an idea.

--ewd

 

[gregV]

Eliot,

True. Hard to completely wrap my head around everything that's going on. I see what you are saying.

As far as this Tarm goes, I don't see that there was ever a blow off attached to the boiler itself. I do see two places where I could put it, but... One has a plug that I just don't know if I could get out without the chance of messing things up. The other port has an Aquastat Well there, that is on the top of the boiler. Now I already have another Aquastat Well in the front that I was going to use for controlling the Taco.
This is what I will be doing tomorrow. Heading down to my local plumbing supply and have then explain the controls, as I have not studied this yet. If I can use just the one Aquastat Well in front, then I may put the blowoff on the boiler top.

I have well water here. I'll just prep the lines in case I can utilize them.