So Really, What is the Diff Tween the BK and VC Cat Stoves?

[DUMF]

A finale from this OP.
Please BKVP, chime in on the innards of your stoves, the engineering, specifics of how the BK cat path works, the thermostatic ( old term indeed ! )
air control, the secondary air method, the ash pan mechanism. What makes them (and Woodstock) such great heaters ?
Now all of the above were in the original, too engineered VC cat stoves with all their maintenance difficulties including the obvious too many gasket openings. Then again, how many consumer manufacturers had and have annual owner parties ( yes, we had Ben and Jerrys in Waterbury ! ) ?
And BTW, the BK Ashfords are cast, not steel.
The two makers, BK and Woodstock, have a rep for responsive customer service that the original VC had here in VT, not with the subsequent owners who frankly blew it. I'm done.

 

[webby3650]

The Ashford is not a cast stove. It's a steel stove with a cast iron jacket. It just hangs over the steel body.

I'm not really sure where you are trying to go with this thread? There honestly is no real comparison with these stoves. When VC got started putting cats in their stoves it was because they had to step it up to meet the EPA requirements. Since they already had a top loading stove, the cat went into the back of the stove. This has always been a vulnerable, high maintaince, finicky design. No matter how much people loved these stoves, it was never a good design. For the most part they needed major work every few years, some did it begrudgingly, but many many of these stoves never got the maintaince and replacement parts that they needed to run the way they were designed. Most people loved the stove, even though they had no idea how to use it, or any stove for that matter.. Heck, most people I meet never even shut the bypass! That's their measure of maintaince, just skip the entire secondary combustion system rather than repair it. So there's no way to compare it to the highest efficiency, high quality stoves being made today by Blaze King or Woodstock.

 

[Parallax]

A finale from this OP.
Please BKVP, chime in on the innards of your stoves, the engineering, specifics of how the BK cat path works, the thermostatic ( old term indeed ! )
air control, the secondary air method, the ash pan mechanism. What makes them (and Woodstock) such great heaters ?
Now all of the above were in the original, too engineered VC cat stoves with all their maintenance difficulties including the obvious too many gasket openings. Then again, how many consumer manufacturers had and have annual owner parties ( yes, we had Ben and Jerrys in Waterbury ! ) ?
And BTW, the BK Ashfords are cast, not steel.
The two makers, BK and Woodstock, have a rep for responsive customer service that the original VC had here in VT, not with the subsequent owners who frankly blew it. I'm done.

The Ashford has a steel box surrounded by cast iron. The cast iron skin has some functionality in that it creates a pocket for the hot air coming off the steel skin to flow. With a fan, one can blow that hot air out into a room. But mostly the cast iron is for show. The result, in my admittedly non-expert opinion, is the best of both worlds. The engineering advantages of a steel box with the aesthetic advantages of the cast iron skin. My wife and I find our enameled Ashford gorgeous.

Webby slipped in ahead of me. Yeah, what he said.

 

[bholler]

Now all of the above were in the original, too engineered VC cat stoves with all their maintenance difficulties including the obvious too many gasket openings. Then again, how many consumer manufacturers had and have annual owner parties ( yes, we had Ben and Jerrys in Waterbury ! ) ?

So inferior stoves are fine because they throw you ice cream parties? If you want to know how Bks or woodstocks work look it up all of the info and drawings are available to the public. I do think that Vc has gotten a little bit worse of a rep that some of their stoves deserve. Their new stuff is not to bad but they are still very expensive and still have complicated and delicate interior parts. There are just many other stoves out there that work much more reliably with many fewer parts to maintain.

And then there is the fact that getting those expensive parts has been extremely difficult at times through the years. I get that you love the vc stoves but face it they have had lots of issues through the years and while they are beautiful stoves they are not the best stoves available by far.

 

[tarzan]

I love my BK. I have had several stoves and none compare but if you can say the same about a VC then that's great.

If you're warm and happy that's the bottom line!

As a side note, I still don't get the big deal about ash handling. I take ashes out once a month now but took them out daily in the past. What's so troubling about removing ashes?

 

[webby3650]

I love my BK. I have had several stoves and none compare but if you can say the same about a VC then that's great.

If you're warm and happy that's the bottom line!

As a side note, I still don't get the big deal about ash handling. I take ashes out once a month now but took them out daily in the past. What's so troubling about removing ashes?

Me either? ! I've only had a few stoves that really had a bad design in the ash area. Grated floors are my least favorite. Ash continues to fall into the pan long after the pan is full, when the pan comes out it overflows onto the floor making a huge mess. The rest falls into the Ashpan housing and has to pulled out with the poker. The alternative is to dump ashes daily. No thanks... I'll just stick with a Blaze King! Even though they doubled the size of the ash plug....

 

[Woody Stover]

What's so troubling about removing ashes?

I just don't like the bullcrapping around, trying to save coals, keep all the dust in the stove, carrying out a hot pan immediately, etc. If you can let the stove go out, great. If you live where you just shoulder-burn all year long, and only have to dump them once a month, great. But I'd think with a month's worth of ashes, you are going to make several trips unless you just keep dumping them into a big bucket, outside the stove. If you think you are containing the ash dust dumping outside the stove door, think again.

Grated floors are my least favorite. Ash continues to fall into the pan long after the pan is full, when the pan comes out it overflows onto the floor making a huge mess. The rest falls into the Ashpan housing and has to pulled out with the poker. The alternative is to dump ashes daily.

I pull the pan about twice a week during winter burning, like you do. After a few days, I open the ash door and look with a flashlight to see if I need to dump yet, but I pretty much know when I need to without looking. The Keystone pan seems to be well-centered under the grate....never overflows unless you let it go way to long. I never have any ash falling into the housing.
Hey, if anyone enjoys messing with ashes, good for them. I don't like it, especially shoveling 'em out. I thought I could make do without the pan (Fireview) but I'm spoiled now. Never going back as long as I can get a stove that has the other features I want, plus the grate.

chime in on the innards of your stoves,

The Dutchwest doesn't have the problems of the other designs, it just has a cat in the top of the stove like the Woodstock and BK. My neighbor had a Defiant for years. I didn't know much about the different designs at the time, I just knew he seemed to be replacing parts often, compared to me. He's got a Liberty now. The Dutchwest parts aren't real cheap but you don't need to buy many. Woodstock parts, including cats, are much cheaper than any other maker's parts.

 

[bholler]

The Dutchwest doesn't have the problems of the other designs,

Yeah the dutch west design is pretty good the only problems i have had with that one is the bypass damper warping. but over all it is a good design for sure.

 

[Woody Stover]

Yeah the dutch west design is pretty good the only problems i have had with that one is the bypass damper warping. but over all it is a good design for sure.

The castings are pretty thin so warping is possible if the stove is over-fired badly. I bought it from the original owner when it was 5 yrs. old and it doesn't look too bad other than the side door being slightly warped. I couldn't over-fire it on the wet Red Oak that I burned until I found this forum.

 

[kennyp2339]

So inferior stoves are fine because they you have ice cream parties?

I now have to explain why there's ice tea on my monitor again.

 

[weatherguy]

The Ashford is not a cast stove. It's a steel stove with a cast iron jacket. It just hangs over the steel body.

I'm not really sure where you are trying to go with this thread? There honestly is no real comparison with these stoves. When VC got started putting cats in their stoves it was because they had to step it up to meet the EPA requirements. Since they already had a top loading stove, the cat went into the back of the stove. This has always been a vulnerable, high maintaince, finicky design. No matter how much people loved these stoves, it was never a good design. For the most part they needed major work every few years, some did it begrudgingly, but many many of these stoves never got the maintaince and replacement parts that they needed to run the way they were designed. Most people loved the stove, even though they had no idea how to use it, or any stove for that matter.. Heck, most people I meet never even shut the bypass! That's their measure of maintaince, just skip the entire secondary combustion system rather than repair it. So there's no way to compare it to the highest efficiency, high quality stoves being made today by Blaze King or Woodstock.

I ran into someone last week with a VC that had problems with the cat and housing, he's been burning without the cat for 7 years. Said it's too expensive to fix. I can't imagine running my stove without the cat.

 

[mellow]

he's been burning without the cat for 7 years. Said it's too expensive to fix.

And another reason why VC gets a bad rep, there are plenty of those types burning in these stoves belching out smoke. I tried my hardest to convince a guy to put the cat back in but he was set in his ways that it burned better without the cat (which there is some truth to that).

 

[BKVP]

Live from New Orleans......you guys seemed to have figured it all out...no need for BKVP here.

 

[DUMF]

Great responses...except for some of the silly defensive anger. Delete that from posting.
The "party" thing mentioned was, FOR THE ERA, how owners and manufacturer bonded with a consumer product ( kinda like Apple ).
And, yes, thx to BKVP again. Excellent (mostly) posts.

 

[bholler]

Great responses...except for some of the silly defensive anger. Delete that from posting.
The "party" thing mentioned was, FOR THE ERA, how owners and manufacturer bonded with a consumer product ( kinda like Apple ).

No anger from me if it came off that way I apologize. It was a joke. I know that vc has a very loyal almost cult following and honestly i think that is the only reason the company is still around. That and the fact that they probably have the best castings of any stove maker. But seriously their design has been lacking greatly on many of their stoves. The new ones are much better and they do work well but I still see expensive repairs down the road on them.

 

[DUMF]

No anger from me if it came off that way I apologize. It was a joke. I know that vc has a very loyal almost cult following and honestly i think that is the only reason the company is still around. That and the fact that they probably have the best castings of any stove maker. But seriously their design has been lacking greatly on many of their stoves. The new ones are much better and they do work well but I still see expensive repairs down the road on them.

"HAD" is operative here.
No cult then or now, it was, was innovative for its time and wood stove technology with no competitors except for the fine "Scandinavian" stoves of the time ( Lange, Morso, Jotul ).
For Vermonters and many many others it was a product that had ISO quality, great castings, exceptional customer response, lovely design, and made burning wood actually fun. Yearly parties were a hoot. Hasn't been that way with any product line for a long time ( except: B&J's ice cream, or gelato ).
The company name and line are still around because .......the name has cachet and market penetration. Their 'new' stoves are just work-arounds original castings. Still look nice in a living room.

 

[bholler]

"HAD" is operative here.
No cult then or now, it was, was innovative for its time and wood stove technology with no competitors except for the fine "Scandinavian" stoves of the time ( Lange, Morso, Jotul ).

There is still quite a following here in PA. There are many who will burn nothing but a vc no matter what. But yes originally they where very innovative and very high quality. But there where quite a few competitors cawley lemay being one of them although they where no where near as big as far as performance casting quality and aesthetics they where right up there with vc. And yes I know it is not and was not a cult but there are some fanatical enough about the stoves that it seems that way at times.

 

[DUMF]

There is still quite a following here in PA. There are many who will burn nothing but a vc no matter what.

We got to have names. "Names" I say. PA is one big place, you must know one ?
"Cawley Lemay" Give us a break.

 

[bholler]

We got to have names. "Names" I say. PA is one big place, you must know one ?

What names? Are you talking about people who are vc fanatics? If so they are my customers and there is no way i am giving out their names here. And what is wrong with Cawley Lemays? Like I said they where a much smaller company so financially they where not competition but as far as performance casting quality and design they are right there if not better than vc.

 

[begreen]

We got to have names. "Names" I say. PA is one big place, you must know one ?
"Cawley Lemay" Give us a break.

A bit less sarcasm would help.

Cawley Lemay was a good brand stove along with Energy Harvester, Upland, All Nighter, NuTec, Nashua, Kent Tile-Fire, Vermont Stove Co. and lots of other steel stove makers. Euro stoves were nice too and there were other choices like Dovre, Efel, Godin, Waterford, etc..
https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/cawley-lemay/

 

[jetsam]

Thanks to this thread, I have made an exciting breakthrough in the rigorously scientific field of stoveology: It is in fact possible to eat Ben and Jerry's brand ice cream in front of a Blaze King.

Successful field trials have already been conducted.

I will be personally conducting additonal follow-up research to see which B&J flavors are BK-compatible.

 

[firefighterjake]

After reading all the opinions and comments in this thread I'm just gonna say this once ...


I like ice cream.

 

[webby3650]

Thanks to this thread, I have made an exciting breakthrough in the rigorously scientific field of stoveology: It is in fact possible to eat Ben and Jerry's brand ice cream in front of a Blaze King.

Successful field trials have already been conducted.

I will be personally conducting additonal follow-up research to see which B&J flavors are BK-compatible.

I prefer bourbon with my Blaze King, still looking for the perfect one!

 

[Patapsco Mike]

I've heated homes with both a VC Dutchwest (large) and a BK (Princess). The BK has more than twice the functional burn time, is quieter, is simpler (no secondary air intake- which never seemed to make much difference anyway), has the thermostat so no fiddling with primary air over the burn, has fewer gaskets, doesn't have those stupid detachable door handles and can go at least 5 times as long between ash removals. The deeper firebox of the Princess is soooooo much nicer than that shallow VC! Being steel, the BK is also less likely to warp. About the only thing I liked better on my VC was the looks and having a good spot for a stick-on thermomer. The BK is a much, much better tool for heating a home.

 

[webby3650]

I've heated homes with both a VC Dutchwest (large) and a BK (Princess). The BK has more than twice the functional burn time, is quieter, is simpler (no secondary air intake- which never seemed to make much difference anyway), has the thermostat so no fiddling with primary air over the burn, has fewer gaskets, doesn't have those stupid detachable door handles and can go at least 5 times as long between ash removals. The deeper firebox of the Princess is soooooo much nicer than that shallow VC! Being steel, the BK is also less likely to warp. About the only thing I liked better on my VC was the looks and having a good spot for a stick-on thermomer. The BK is a much, much better tool for heating a home.

A Dutchwest is better looking? I'd have to disagree there... Although it's a decent stove, I've never been a fan of its looks. I should back up, I'm not a fan of its performance either, it's kinda durable though. Scratch that.. It's not bad for a VC, how's that?