Running stove on generator?

[TStark]

For an extended outage I just cycle the Gen now and then and use the oil for a few days. Screw the pellet stove. 20Gal gas would last a few weeks if the zombies came out.

didn't see the point of running a 5-8 HP genset continously just to operate a 250W (1/3HP) stove.
Unless one had to, of course.

 

[novah]

<snip> So when you take a UPS and plug it into a generator, the generator becomes the utility and it will continue to run off that power. Though I've read that some UPS units won't run properly off some generators. </snip>

I thought I had it nailed when I read about pure sine wave inverters. Then the snippet above got me looking at the UPS' and confusion is back. The last sentence seems like the word "some" should be changed to "most" or to "low end".

I keep reading posts on forums that say the units under $1000 don't change the form of the sine wave. They just "pass it through" so you get the same as what the generator is putting out - just like they pass the power company's power through as long as they are plugged into a live outlet. For example:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/generator-ups-pellet-stove.64356/

 

[chken]

<snip> So when you take a UPS and plug it into a generator, the generator becomes the utility and it will continue to run off that power. Though I've read that some UPS units won't run properly off some generators. </snip>

I thought I had it nailed when I read about pure sine wave inverters. Then the snippet above got me looking at the UPS' and confusion is back. The last sentence seems like the word "some" should be changed to "most" or to "low end".

I keep reading posts on forums that say the units under $1000 don't change the form of the sine wave. They just "pass it through" so you get the same as what the generator is putting out - just like they pass the power company's power through as long as they are plugged into a live outlet. For example:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/generator-ups-pellet-stove.64356/

Two waves. One wave is from your UPS to your stove. Mostly we've been talking about that wave, and whether you need pure sine, or modified, etc. The other wave is from the external generator. Many UPS can't tolerate the wave coming from the generator and won't recharge. That leads to a lot of beeping! I think that's the sentence you are referring to.

Most people start with the UPS to give them a safe way to shutdown their stove during an outage. Fewer people want to run their stove during an outage, but already have their stove hooked up to a UPS, so they add a gas or diesel or LP or NG generator connected to their electrical panel. And others have come up with their own creative solutions, like several batteries connected to a UPS to extend runtime, or using a small inverter generator like a Honda or Yamaha that they can also take camping. There are even those who have run their stove off their car batteries and hybrid batteries.

 

[mchasal]

That's correct most UPS's don't do anything to the incoming power when it's there.

What I meant when I was saying "some UPS units won't run properly" is that the UPS itself will have problems. Like it won't recognize the generator power as good power and won't charge or switch to it. Like I said, only something I've read about haven't run into it personally. See the thread starting here: Which UPS Battery Back Up?

 

[novah]

After reading and reading, I have decided that the UPS is a combination of a battery and an inverter. The ones that clean up the harmonic distortions in the generator output - non inverter generator - are expensive so I made the following decision.

I have a bass boat and it has two deep cycle batteries. Those batteries are in the house during the power outage "season" so I will use them in conjunction with a pure sine wave inverter. The inverter will run the pellet stove, computer and surround system. This one has roughly double what I figured I might use so I chose it for a factor of safety against over loading it and popping its breaker. It has a low voltage alarm to warn me it is getting close to battery change over time. As someone said in the thread I attached earlier, one battery charges off the generator while the other is in use.

http://www.donrowe.com/KISAE-SW1220-Power-Inverter-p/sw1220.htm

I am on the same page as the people with the opinion of why run the pellet stove for a day or 2 of power outage but my stove is in my under the house, unheated garage that I converted into a work shop. When the temperature gets down near zero,, that area of the basement gets down around 30 degrees so I need to heat if to keep paints and other liquids from freezing.

 

[St_Earl]

i saw someone suggest electric space heaters instead of running the pellet stove.
to me, that is just madness. space heaters are a huge draw on the generator and they only heat the air in close proximity to themselves.
whereas a pellet stove heats up everything. the walls, furniture, everything, for a nice saturated heat, "the soak."
turn off an electric space heater and the room goes cold almost instantly. not so with the pellet stove.

after start up, the draw goes way down. i can run my stove, my modem/32" lcd tv/pc monitor, desktop pc some lights and the fridge easily with my 1800W portable inverter genny (2200 surge)
my pellet stove heats my entire home including the basement (45F minimum in the basement even at the coldest of times -15 -20) as during times when temps approach zero, i run a fan down through a passthrough vent that was here when we bought the house.

i can alternate usage by running the fridge intermittently, which is all it needs.

i have gas on hand kept with seafoam stabilizer and i use it at the end of summer in the car and freshen it up for the winter stash.
2 5 gallon cans and the 4 gallon tank on the genny (i drain the carb when the genny is not in use.) i also have lots of motor oil on hand.
if needed, i can drive to one of several neighboring towns for gas if by chance none of the three stations in town have power.
in my experience, and from what long time residents tell me, the outages here are never that long.
one person recalled a three day outage. but so far, a few hours is the longest i've seen here.

sorry if i missed other points in the discussion, i didn't read the whole thread.
but when it's cold and the power goes out, the pellet stove is the first thing i start off the genny.

lol. i only had to do that once in four seasons though.
i run the genny most often just to keep it in working order for if it's ever actually needed.

 

[F4jock]

I am so glad that I was too stupid to worry about all this when I got my Harman and when the first occurrence of power outage came after it was installed. Genny auto-starts after eight seconds of no power, stabilizes and kicks over to power the entire house. Total power outage equals about thirty seconds. Apparently my Harman is also stupid as it runs fine and doesn't seem to worry about what waveform it's getting from my old Onan. I won't let either the Onan or the Harman read this thread 'cause maybe they'll suddenly realize that according to you all they probably shouldn't be working. . . .

 

[velvetfoot]

2000W portable inverter genny (2200 peak)

Hi. Would you have a link for that generator?

 

[F4jock]

Hi. Would you have a link for that generator?

Nope. I got it out of a farmer's field about 25 years ago. He sold surplus and said it came from a hosiptal in Philly. Bought it with 36 hours on the meter. All I can tell you is that it is an Onan 17.6 KW propane-fired 4 cylinder Renault engine. So old it has points and a distributor. We added an auto-transfer switch. Thing is a work-horse. In hurricanes and blizzards it has run 24 hours a day for eight days straight keeping the entire house including well pump, dryer, oil burner, pellet stove, spa, computers, you name it, running. As I said above, sure glad I'm too stupid to worry about what waveform it's providing or to realize that I shouldn't let this happen. . . .

 

[St_Earl]

i'm not sure who you are asking, so here's mine -
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200419022_200419022

and this is their new compact low noise and <1.5% harmonic distortion model. 200 fewer watts than mine though.
can be run in series as well. the only bad part of a review i found was the cover is difficult to get off the first few times. and it has to be removed for oil changes.
the powerhorse engines are good pieces of gear.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200623983_200623983?cm_mmc=Google-pla_with_promotion-_-Generators-_-Inverter Generators-_-42411&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=42411&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=42411&gclid=CJDu7oiG0sICFW3ItAodqCUAnQ

at close to half the price, i'm fine with mine.
and the 4 gallon tank should come in handy if i ever need to run it longer than a few hours.

 

[IHATEPROPANE]

I am so glad that I was too stupid to worry about all this when I got my Harman and when the first occurrence of power outage came after it was installed. Genny auto-starts after eight seconds of no power, stabilizes and kicks over to power the entire house. Total power outage equals about thirty seconds. Apparently my Harman is also stupid as it runs fine and doesn't seem to worry about what waveform it's getting from my old Onan. I won't let either the Onan or the Harman read this thread 'cause maybe they'll suddenly realize that according to you all they probably shouldn't be working. . . .

If your stupid Harman were to see a modified sine wave it will shut down.

 

[velvetfoot]

thanks
Looking at the link, it doesn't look like it's an inverter generator but that it has other stuff that keeps power quality high.

 

[F4jock]

If your stupid Harman were to see a modified sine wave it will shut down.

Shhhhh! Don't tell it 'cause in seven seasons and many generator runs it hasn't done that even once and I don't want it to start over-thinking and get uppity ideas

 

[IHATEPROPANE]

i'm not sure who you are asking, so here's mine -
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200419022_200419022

and this is their new compact low noise and <1.5% harmonic distortion model. 200 fewer watts than mine though.
can be run in series as well. the only bad part of a review i found was the cover is difficult to get off the first few times. and it has to be removed for oil changes.
the powerhorse engines are good pieces of gear.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200623983_200623983?cm_mmc=Google-pla_with_promotion-_-Generators-_-Inverter Generators-_-42411&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=42411&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=42411&gclid=CJDu7oiG0sICFW3ItAodqCUAnQ

at close to half the price, i'm fine with mine.

Your generator is NOT an inverter. Although it seems to have very good specs regardless. I would use it without worry

 

[Bioburner]

Shhhhh! Don't tell it 'cause in seven seasons and many generator runs it hasn't done that even once and I don't want it to start over-thinking and get uppity ideas

I recently changed out the CB and now it will pulse the exhaust fan if the UPS kicks in. So some of your older boards aren't that smart.

 

[IHATEPROPANE]

Shhhhh! Don't tell it 'cause in seven seasons and many generator runs it hasn't done that even once and I don't want it to start over-thinking and get uppity ideas

Lol, that's because you don't have a modified sine wave producing Genny. My response was for others that may.

 

[F4jock]

I recently changed out the CB and now it will pulse the exhaust fan if the UPS kicks in. So some of your older boards aren't that smart.

We see no difference running on genny or normal power. Fan and pellet feed modulate, stove maintains room temperature. Shuts down and restarts fine. Only difference we see is that, since the genset is old we can't maintain an exact sixty cycles and the clocks run a bit fast.

 

[F4jock]

Lol, that's because you don't have a modified sine wave producing Genny. My response was for others that may.

Thank God I'm a Chem E / ME and not an EE!

 

[St_Earl]

thanks
Looking at the link, it doesn't look like it's an inverter generator but that it has other stuff that keeps power quality high.

Your generator is NOT an inverter. Although it seems to have very good specs regardless. I would use it without worry

T.I.L...
thankfully i was looking at the distortion specs when i bought it.
*edits signature*

 

[IHATEPROPANE]

T.I.L...
thankfully i was looking at the distortion specs when i bought it.

Yeah, those are good Genny's. A friend has one and has only used it sparingly but has had no issues. IMHO the pure sine inverter generators real advantages come down to noise and efficiency. But you pay up a lot for both of those.

 

[St_Earl]

i think this must relate to what i have read about high quality whole house gennys being suitable for clean power applications even though they aren't necessarily (or even ever?) inverter units.

 

[Wilbur Feral]

Probably the most PRACTICAL thing any reader desiring backup power (whether for shutdown only or for an extended period) can do is to:

1) Make sure the generator and/or UPS you wish to use during outages can be returned if it does not meet your needs.
2) Immediately after purchase (within return period) hook it all up with your stove and whatever else you wish to run, and try it out to see how everything performs together - without utility power - preferably for several hours.
What you don't want is to be in the midst of a storm, experience an outage, and then decide it's a good time to test everything. Bad plan.

The LOWEST RISK thing any reader can do is to purchase a generator that states without question that it produces a pure sine wave, and power their stove from that. Almost any UPS will recharge from such a generator, so sufficient wattage (VA, for a UPS) and run time are the only real concerns in that case. All should still be tested as above. Anything less than this involves at least some risk because some stoves run well on non-sine wave power and some don't, and some UPS units recharge fine on non-sine wave power and some don't (and your situation may vary from others here, which is why you need to test it yourself).

Personally, and like a few others on here, I took an approach that involves a non-sine wave generator that powers my stove (and a few other critical items) through a UPS with modified batteries that delivers utility-grade power, with ability to boost or trim voltage and ability to recharge from a generator producing less-than-sine wave electricity (basically a modified wave with many small steps that makes it a bit more compatible with appliances, devices, etc.). It works for me but took a fair amount of planning and a working knowledge of electicity, batteries, wire sizing, etc. But I already owned that expensive UPS and then spent several hundred $ on batteries, so that approach is not for everyone.

Bottom line: Pick your approach within the boundaries of risk and cost, and realize that it's your rear end (and your family's) that will be freezing or comfortable when the power goes out, and that all the back and forth on here won't heat your house then, despite all the "hot air" we've generated on the subject.

 

[seige101]

Ya know, even though I understand the discussion it's making my head explode! About 25 years ago after the first extended power outage up here that left us with no utilities save for the phone, we picked up a propane-fired 4 cylinder Renault powered, 17.5 Kw Onan with 36 hours on it that was sitting in a farmer's field. We had it refurbished and added an auto-start transfer switch. Since that time it's run as much as eight days at a time powering the entire house including, for the last seven years, our Harman Accentra Insert with nary a hiccup. Although I appreciate the technical dissertations above I thus have no clue what all the fuss us about. Am I just lucky or has stove technology changed so much that a certain AC waveform is now necessary? I somehow can't see my rescued Onan as having an inverter conforming to any of the foregoing specifications.

That old iron beast you have will run longer than any modern POS out there. You say it was taken out of service from a hospital in another post so it might even be designed as 'premium' generator for it's time. Take care of it and it will run forever!

As far as wave form it is probably putting out pretty close to the utility grid.

Most modern contractor generators will produce 'dirty' power but this doesn't matter to contractors because their tools won't care. It only becomes an issue when trying to power sensitive electronics and the like. Don't even get me started on phase harmonics.

 

[adam6979]

Yes it has probably been said already but typically the old heavy generators will run damn near anything, but the newer small light weight ones use semiconductor chips instead of coil windings and they can produce crappy electricity. Just like those inverters that hook on your battery and give you 120V - the cheap ones work fine for non-motor driven items.... hookup a drill to them and you run the risk of burning out the drill. The heavy bad ass looking inverters though use different technology and run much cleaner. Exactly like the tiny light weight ChineseJunk Plasma cutters or the heavy industrial thermodynamics... it is either semiconductors or transformer windings making it work - and believe me without spending serious money the transformer machines are the way to go.