Reverting an Old Farmhouse to Wood Heat

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Running the stove constantly in bypass mode would be seriously inefficient and may warp bypass parts. I wouldn't plan on operating the stove that way. You would be better off with a simpler stove if that is the plan.

I'd just run it in bypass until the moisture is driven out. Not the whole burn. Risk is, how to tell when enough is enough. Not optimal, but that's what I've been doing.

 

[begreen]

I'd just run it in bypass until the moisture is driven out. Not the whole burn. Risk is, how to tell when enough is enough. Not optimal, but that's what I've been doing.

Are you doing this in a cat or a non-cat stove?

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Are you doing this in a cat or a non-cat stove?

Tube. You're right, shouldnt be opining on something I don't have direct experience with.

 

[begreen]

Tube. You're right, shouldnt be opining on something I don't have direct experience with.

No problem. A tube stove like a big Drolet could be a good option for this situation. Your experience has merit. I just wanted to clarify for the OP.

 

[Ashful]

Interesting detail on the ceramic vs steel cats. That explains a lot about the apparent discrepancies I've been reading about running cats with wet wood.

Yes, I believe this to be a big part of the rhetoric.

So am I right to assume from that then that if one has a more recent design with a steel cat, that one can burn the those stoves indefinitely in bypass mode (forfeiting the potential efficiency of the cat, but meanwhile protecting it from moisture and/or contaminants, or simply accommodating one's schedule since one couldn't afford to wait around until the temp was high enough on a given occasion to engage the cat), essentially running a the cat stove as secondary stage burner tube stove until that point?

First, a few corrections:

1. SteelCats are newer tech than Ceramic cats, but one has not replaced the other. There is no implication that new stoves are always steelcat, or vice versa. Ceramic is all there was on the market, five or ten years ago, but not everyone has switched to steel.

2. Running a cat stove in bypass is akin to running an old pre-EPA stove, not a tube stove. A tube stove (other than the exceptions begreen mentioned) always has the secondary burn system in the combustion exhaust path. A cat stove has a catalytic combustor in this path, but with a bypass damper that allows the exhaust to escape directly from the firebox to the flue.

Now to answer the question, although begreen and ED3000 already did, you generally do not want to run any cat stove in bypass for any longer than needed. The exact reasons why vary by stove model, but include possible uncontrolled combustion, damage to the stove or chimney, and enormously bad emissions. What I was saying is that you can simply extend the time spent in bypass long enough to get the wood down to an acceptable MC%, most cat stove owners have had to do this at one time or another, usually in the first two years of their burning career. You may want to clean your chimney more frequently, if you do this, but there is no other harm done. Because the primary issue is getting the load going well and charred, the chance of damage to things like bypass retainers is not really a primary issue, at least in my own experience.

Once the fire is going strong, it’s ready to engage the combustor, and from there the only factor related to the starting MC% of your wood is how far you can dial down without stalling. Wet wood, even after being baked out, will still have higher MC% than wood that started dry. It will work fine with a catalytic reburn, but maybe not at the lowest possible burn rates.

Or is that NOT the case in conventional cats, but IS the case in hybrids like the Woodstock Progress and Lopi Rockport? I'm still a bit confused?

I have no experience with hybrids. Once you understand catalytic and non-catalytic tech, you can make your own judgement, there.

The key thing I notice for myself is that as I age, I feel the cold more... and that can get depressing... but if I can get warm then get outdoors and moving and tackling the endless work that such old places guarantee, I can be quite fine.

I hear you, there. I’m already noticing the same, and you have about 15 years on me.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Yes, I believe this to be a big part of the rhetoric.


First, a few corrections:

1. SteelCats are newer tech than Ceramic cats, but one has not replaced the other. There is no implication that new stoves are always steelcat, or vice versa. Ceramic is all there was on the market, five or ten years ago, but not everyone has switched to steel.

2. Running a cat stove in bypass is akin to running an old pre-EPA stove, not a tube stove. A tube stove (other than the exceptions begreen mentioned) always has the secondary burn system in the combustion exhaust path. A cat stove has a catalytic combustor in this path, but with a bypass damper that allows the exhaust to escape directly from the firebox to the flue.

Now to answer the question, although begreen and ED3000 already did, you generally do not want to run any cat stove in bypass for any longer than needed. The exact reasons why vary by stove model, but include possible uncontrolled combustion, damage to the stove or chimney, and enormously bad emissions. What I was saying is that you can simply extend the time spent in bypass long enough to get the wood down to an acceptable MC%, most cat stove owners have had to do this at one time or another, usually in the first two years of their burning career. You may want to clean your chimney more frequently, if you do this, but there is no other harm done. Because the primary issue is getting the load going well and charred, the chance of damage to things like bypass retainers is not really a primary issue, at least in my own experience.

Once the fire is going strong, it’s ready to engage the combustor, and from there the only factor related to the starting MC% of your wood is how far you can dial down without stalling. Wet wood, even after being baked out, will still have higher MC% than wood that started dry. It will work fine with a catalytic reburn, but maybe not at the lowest possible burn rates.


I have no experience with hybrids. Once you understand catalytic and non-catalytic tech, you can make your own judgement, there.


I hear you, there. I’m already noticing the same, and you have about 15 years on me.

Really nice post bringing it all together, Ashful. You've a lot of very specific experience to share on this one.

 

[Ashful]

Really nice post bringing it all together, Ashful. You've a lot of very specific experience to share on this one.

... until begreen has to correct half of what I wrote. [emoji14]

I’m not an expert, I just play one on TV.

 

[MedicineHorse]

The T6 is going on it's 10th season. The first one was on the showroom floor. The stove has done us well so far. It's simple, easy to run and low maintenance. It was on of the original cast iron jacketed stoves, now there are several more choices. Still, I doubt we'll upgrade to the LE. Our stove is working fine... and it's paid for.

Thanks begreen... and with your experience of the T6, if you had to buy another stove now, would you still choose it over the field of options, and if not, what would you choose instead?

 

[MedicineHorse]

Running the stove constantly in bypass mode would be seriously inefficient and may warp bypass parts. I wouldn't plan on operating the stove that way. You would be better off with a simpler stove if that is the plan.

Thanks

 

[MedicineHorse]

So here are a couple things I have learnt from my one winter in a house build in 1850 (renovated badly in 1980 to 2100sqft).
18" thick fieldstone walls with 2x4 balloon frame floating inside those stone walls. (the mice have totally destroyed insulation)
Most seals in the windows have failed. 7 x (36x60 windows) on the main floor alone.

View attachment 232021 View attachment 232020

The previous owner heated with electricity ($4000 / month + $1200/ heating season propane)
I immediately put in an Osburn 2300 (red square above). And with my first winter, I couldn't even get the house to higher than 16degrees at full tilt (on those -30 to -40 days). Cold drafts coming in from everywhere. I was cleaning out the baseboard heaters and froze my cheek on the air coming from the cellar through into the living room through the old pine flooring gaps.

I read that a 2000sqft home can have all it's air exchanged in 15 mins with a wood stove using conditioned air.
So I did the following:

Sealed every window with clear caulk. New door seals.
I bit the bullet and bought a fresh air intake.

Last Saturday in -4 with just 3 short (6") splits (baby fire). It was 25 degrees in the house.
a lot less drafts and I am not shooting my conditioned air out the chimney.

Though.. my two far rooms are still colder
kitchen on main floor ( 3-4 degrees colder, but still have draft proofing to do)
master on second story it generally 4-5 degrees colder.
(I now find it cheaper to use electric heat with the door closed for the master room (turns on at 9pm, off at 1am, then back on at 5am and off at 9am).
Electric mattress pad on the bed also to warm up the sheets

I need to get the floor between cellar and main floor insulated but may just do carpets for now.
Another big on the list is thermal window covers.
And try and figure out how to move air from cold areas. The old house still has ceiling /floor pass throughs

Good luck on heating the place.

Thanks ChuckTSI for your account. I've always admired those old Upper Canada stone houses (and yours looks beautiful) and wondered what they'd be like to live in, and now I know. I feel your pain, or your former pain at least, especially on windy days. Sounds like we're trading a similar path, with you—good King Wencelas—well in the lead. Draft stoppage has to be one of my strategies on this old place yet to come. Hopefully we'll get there, though I imagine for some time to come there will be heat distribution issues and wide temp variances between rooms.

 

[MedicineHorse]

Yes, I believe this to be a big part of the rhetoric.


First, a few corrections:

1. SteelCats are newer tech than Ceramic cats, but one has not replaced the other. There is no implication that new stoves are always steelcat, or vice versa. Ceramic is all there was on the market, five or ten years ago, but not everyone has switched to steel.

2. Running a cat stove in bypass is akin to running an old pre-EPA stove, not a tube stove. A tube stove (other than the exceptions begreen mentioned) always has the secondary burn system in the combustion exhaust path. A cat stove has a catalytic combustor in this path, but with a bypass damper that allows the exhaust to escape directly from the firebox to the flue.

Now to answer the question, although begreen and ED3000 already did, you generally do not want to run any cat stove in bypass for any longer than needed. The exact reasons why vary by stove model, but include possible uncontrolled combustion, damage to the stove or chimney, and enormously bad emissions. What I was saying is that you can simply extend the time spent in bypass long enough to get the wood down to an acceptable MC%, most cat stove owners have had to do this at one time or another, usually in the first two years of their burning career. You may want to clean your chimney more frequently, if you do this, but there is no other harm done. Because the primary issue is getting the load going well and charred, the chance of damage to things like bypass retainers is not really a primary issue, at least in my own experience.

Once the fire is going strong, it’s ready to engage the combustor, and from there the only factor related to the starting MC% of your wood is how far you can dial down without stalling. Wet wood, even after being baked out, will still have higher MC% than wood that started dry. It will work fine with a catalytic reburn, but maybe not at the lowest possible burn rates.


I have no experience with hybrids. Once you understand catalytic and non-catalytic tech, you can make your own judgement, there.


I hear you, there. I’m already noticing the same, and you have about 15 years on me.

Thank you Ashful for that fulsome reply. Clarifies a lot of things.

 

[MedicineHorse]

I'm intrigued by the hybrids. So far I know of the existence of the Woodstocks Progress and the Lopi Rockport, but I still know very little about them, and being imports to Canada, also harder just to get a look at in the flesh, so to speak. In part I wish I could find a way to experience them first hand and get a personal sense of the trade-off between the energy savings and emissions of the cats (the cats being one of the 3 burn stages of the hybrids) vs the relative inconvenience of monitoring their burn before engaging the cat. I can be a bit forgetful, particularly right now with the many concerns of this new farm, and I'm guessing that might be rather a liability with a cat. Its hard enough remembering to change their litter, et alone feed them. Plus there will be eventually other non-technical types here tending fire... more variables and room for error.

If I'm to go with the tubes, of those that I've looked into and that my local hearth guy sells, I'm probably looking at a Regency S2400, one of the PE/TNs (the PE/TNs all seem to have roughly the same system in the inner steel burn box, and so it becomes a choice both of styling and the extra thermal mass of the cast jackets)— Regency and Pacific Energy both being Canadian, and so no import duties versus a US import, the Lopi Endeavor. All are older and proven with similar specs, though the Endeavor cuts its emissions to nearly half the others and incidently also hits the EPA 2020 targets, which is amazing for a 1984 (I think) design.

Any further comments on my dilemma and choices?

 

[weatherguy]

The hybrids are nice. I have the progress hybrid but I think the cost would be pretty high for you with shipping and exchange rate. I live near the factory so I drove up and picked it up myself.

 

[jetsam]

Interesting detail on the ceramic vs steel cats. That explains a lot about the apparent discrepancies I've been reading about running cats with wet wood.

Disagree. Ceramic and steel work the same with wet wood, with one exception. You don't want to run a ceramic cat up to 1000-1500° operating temperatures and then pump a bunch of room temperature (or lower) wet air through it. Imagine blowtorching a cold piece of ceramic tile in one spot. What is going to happen? Ceramic cats take it much better than the wall tile, but it's the same principle: Sudden expansion or contraction equals snap crackle pop.

So am I right to assume from that then that if one has a more recent design with a steel cat,

Today's stoves use them interchangeably. Several of us here have used both in the same stove over the years and been pleased with both. I am not aware of any stove manufacturer that tells its users that they must use either steel or ceramic in their stove.

burn the those stoves indefinitely in bypass mode (forfeiting the potential efficiency of the cat, but meanwhile protecting it from moisture and/or contaminants, or simply accommodating one's schedule since one couldn't afford to wait around until the temp was high enough on a given occasion to engage the cat), essentially running a the cat stove as secondary stage burner tube stove until that point?

As a rule of thumb, no. Check with your stove manufacturer. That is one of the few ways you can physically damage a Blaze King with a fire.

Personally, I don't find it to be a big issue. If I can't hang around for the stove to come up to temp (which is a situation that I am personally almost never in, because the stove almost never gets that cold), I will try to reload earlier so the stove is hot. If I screwed that up and urgently had to leave, I would just set the air and close the bypass and go (do not try this trick with a non-thermostatic stove). The cat won't suffer thermally because the stove is cold. It will get a bunch of possibly mineral-containing water in it, which could shorten its life due to the minerals depositing on the surface and masking the catalyst. This potentially means a sooner vinegar bath or a sooner replacement of a $200-$300 part. Not the end of the world, but to be avoided if it's not necessary. Personally, I don't worry about the mineral depositation too much. If I wanted to get the minerals out of some water, I'd boil the water and then condense the evaporate.

Moisture itself (if we're talking distilled water) is not bad for the cat. We talk about it in the stove context because often the cat is 1200° and the water is steaming off of snowy wood at 200°- the temperature difference is what is bad for the ceramic. The bypass is also trying to keep the surface of the catalyst from getting covered with stuff, including things it could normally burn off, before it's at operating temperature.

Lastly, as you had mentioned a source of 1 year dried maple, you only have one footin the wet wood boat. Around here, one year topcovered maple maple is miserable to start, but burns okay once it gets going. (Three year maple is a pleasure.)

I would ask your guy if he has any 1 year dried pine he'd be willing to sell. Pine is a pleasure to burn after only one year topcovered. If you can even find a little bit, you can hoard it and use it to start fires.

General suboptimal wood tips:

1) Don't start fires. Reload hot. The larger the stove and the longer it can normally burn, the easier this is. If you get a stove that can only go 8 hours with dry wood, don't plan on sleeping through any nights, because you aren't getting 8 hours with wet wood, and you have to reload even sooner than that to keep the stove hot. If you get a stove that requires babysitting on hot reloads, plan on doing that too. (So once you pick a few candidate stoves, talk to current owners here.)

2) Although it conflicts with #1, it must be. Inspect and sweep your flue every week or two at first. Get a flashlight in that cold part at the top. As you learn how much crud you are building up, you can scale back to whatever your safe interval is. Maybe it's a month or six months. Nobody can tell you, because they don't have your stove, your flue, your wood, and your operating habits.

3) In support of #2, insulate your flue at install time. You will appreciate it later.

 

[MedicineHorse]

A lot of great info there. Thanks jetsam. Heartening to know my wood shipment of yesterday can at least serve me this year even if a little troublesome to start. If this new SBI meter is remotely accurate, MC is circa 22%.

 

[MedicineHorse]

The hybrids are nice. I have the progress hybrid but I think the cost would be pretty high for you with shipping and exchange rate. I live near the factory so I drove up and picked it up myself.

Yup. Just talked with Woodstock. Great service, hugely informative. Progress is likely too big for this place. They suggest Absolute Steel, but even at that, with freight, duty and brokerage and exchange rate roughly double the cost for us here, plus there is a thorny issue about safety certification which I'm still looking into. They are US UL only not Canada. Maybe hard to get certified and without certification, no insurance. But they do sell units here, at least in some provinces so there is more knowledge to unfold. Will report back on that when I no more.

 

[maple1]

I'm not sure a wood stove could be too big for an old farmhouse?

 

[jetsam]

I'm not sure a wood stove could be too big for an old farmhouse?

"You can make a small fire in a big stove, but you can't make a big fire in a small stove."

If you're concerned about how the stove will do after the place is insulated, pick a stove with good turn-down.

Look at the BK King, it has both things going on (big whonking firebox, excellent turn down).

If you want a cheaper stove, you can build smaller fires in any large stove, and you should have dry wood by the time you have the house insulated in a year or two. The NC30 and its cousins are popular stoves in this category. If you're going with something in the 3.5cf firebox range, take a peek at the Kuma Sequoia too- their convective jacketblowerthingy is neat.

Definitely pick the stove before you do the flue; some of those are 6" stoves and some are 8" stoves.

 

[begreen]

The big Drolet, Osburn, Enerzone are 3.4 cu ft on a 6" flue.

 

[SuperJ]

A cast over steel stove or something with a well engineered blower will let you heat your many small/medium sized room, better than a big radiant heavy hitter.

Going back to your original posts, I wouldn't worry or wait for the 2020 Pacific Energy updates. If anything they might be a downgrade in everything but particulate emissions. The existing PE's are proven performers. (as are the other options you're considering). The first first stove you inquired about (the Alderlea) is a great one.

As a very satisfied BK owner, I'm still jealous of the secondary action/clean glass from the Alderlea whenever I'm over at parents, it's mesmerizing to watch. (secondary flames are pretty similar across the board for non-cats). For me the BK is the right choice (no regrets) since I'm often away at work for longer than 14hours, I like coming home and doing a hot reload without worrying about relighting a fire from coals. But, my dad is home all day and doesn't mind tending the stove every 4-8hours, in fact he enjoys it, so the Alderlea is the right choice for him. Plus his bigger house makes the higher minimum burn rate a non-issue.

The way I see it, get the stove you really want the first time around. By the time you pay for your install, class A chimney, and stove, the difference between a low end $2000 stove and a higher end Stove is only a couple grand. I drew the line at paint instead of enamel, and now I wish I would've pony'd up for the enamel finish.

 

[bholler]

Regency makes several hybrids that seem to be performing well also.

 

[Pertzbro]

(broken link removed)

 

[MedicineHorse]

A cast over steel stove or something with a well engineered blower will let you heat your many small/medium sized room, better than a big radiant heavy hitter.

Going back to your original posts, I wouldn't worry or wait for the 2020 Pacific Energy updates. If anything they might be a downgrade in everything but particulate emissions. The existing PE's are proven performers. (as are the other options you're considering). The first first stove you inquired about (the Alderlea) is a great one.

As a very satisfied BK owner, I'm still jealous of the secondary action/clean glass from the Alderlea whenever I'm over at parents, it's mesmerizing to watch. (secondary flames are pretty similar across the board for non-cats). For me the BK is the right choice (no regrets) since I'm often away at work for longer than 14hours, I like coming home and doing a hot reload without worrying about relighting a fire from coals. But, my dad is home all day and doesn't mind tending the stove every 4-8hours, in fact he enjoys it, so the Alderlea is the right choice for him. Plus his bigger house makes the higher minimum burn rate a non-issue.

The way I see it, get the stove you really want the first time around. By the time you pay for your install, class A chimney, and stove, the difference between a low end $2000 stove and a higher end Stove is only a couple grand. I drew the line at paint instead of enamel, and now I wish I would've pony'd up for the enamel finish.

This is all so helpful. I'm starting to get a real feel for the various options. I can't specify exactly how, but its just a sense of it all and how these various categories of devices work. Thank you all. Its fun to see how committed most people are to their own choices. Sounds like a lot of satisfied woodburners. I guess the key thing is that we live in good times with a wealth of great choices. It's really just a matter of figuring out what my actual needs are going to be... The more anecdotes people share of themselves, family and friends, I'm better able to match up aspects of myself and my own needs, and to visualize what the various realities might be. Great community!

 

[jetsam]

This is all so helpful. I'm starting to get a real feel for the various options. I can't specify exactly how, but its just a sense of it all and how these various categories of devices work. Thank you all. Its fun to see how committed most people are to their own choices. Sounds like a lot of satisfied woodburners. I guess the key thing is that we live in good times with a wealth of great choices.

I would hate to switch off of a stove that has a 24 hour burn, but I remember how to do it. Like my old truck, it may be dated but it still works!

Some people "pick sides" and get all partisan about a brand or technology, but they don't usually stick around here too long.

 

[mcstatz5829]

Moisture itself (if we're talking distilled water) is not bad for the cat. We talk about it in the stove context because often the cat is 1200° and the water is steaming off of snowy wood at 200°- the temperature difference is what is bad for the ceramic.

Just because the phase change is at 212F doesn’t mean the steam stays that cold. I suppose if you chunked some wet logs in a stove at full temp you’d get a massive temperature difference, but there’s nothing that keeps steam from getting superheated and as hot as the rest of the stove in the right conditions.