Researching systems

[ewdudley]

Dextron,

Do you have a source for used propane tanks?

In my neck of the woods I have a very good source and am able to get "stubby" 500 gallon propane tanks. After a base ring is welded to these tanks they stand at 8'10". These work very well in rooms with 9-10' tall ceilings. I you can easily join 2 of these tanks together and then enclose them in 1-1/2' tuff R foil faced foam - works great!

See the photos attached to this emailView attachment 84532

Anyone in the planning stages may want to take into account that tanks plumbed as show will not be able to make use of the volume above the upper port nor below the lower port, unless there are internal riser and dip tubes to reach up and down near the ends of the tanks. Loss of usable volume could be one third or more of total tank volume.

 

[JP11]

Anyone in the planning stages may want to take into account that tanks plumbed as show will not be able to make use of the volume above the upper port nor below the lower port, unless there are internal riser and dip tubes to reach up and down near the ends of the tanks. Loss of usable volume could be one third or more of total tank volume.

I disagree. Granted you won't get the hottest of the hot water.. but the conduction is pretty good inside the water, and the pumps are pulling 15 or 20 gpm.. there's plenty of mixing going on.

 

[maple1]

I think that with the good stratification we all desire, and the vertical tanks encouraging that, and my 15-58 pumping nowhere near 15-20 gpm on low and working just hunkey dorey doing that - I might agree with EW on this one. My horizontal tanks seem to have a pretty well defined stratification line that lowers as the tanks heat, and rises as they give it up. With the ports where they are, that line wouldn't go lower than the bottom one, or higher that the top one. If you left the top uninsulated though they'd make a darn good radiator up there.

 

[Dextron]

I have a unit with O2 sensor(Lambda), all computer controlled and 1200.gal storage. If you load more wood than needed it idles just fine, but I do believe much less efficient doing that. Storage, in my opinion, is the whole secret. LAzy man's system, load, reload if needed, walk away until tomorrow. Longer of course in warmer weather. No learning curve, any kind of wood. I have never tried wet wood, all under 15% (my climate) but from reading this forum it's important.

So if I am understanding things right the difference between lambda units and more conventional ones is that lambda units manage the combuston air automatically based on O2 and sometimes temp readings. I suppose what could be considered a disadvantage is the level of technology involved would make troubleshooting a control problem more difficult. Anyone have thoghts on the reliability of lambda units?

 

[Dextron]

Dextron,

Do you have a source for used propane tanks?

In my neck of the woods I have a very good source and am able to get "stubby" 500 gallon propane tanks. After a base ring is welded to these tanks they stand at 8'10". These work very well in rooms with 9-10' tall ceilings. I you can easily join 2 of these tanks together and then enclose them in 1-1/2' tuff R foil faced foam - works great!

See the photos attached to this emailView attachment 84532View attachment 84533

Propane is too expensive to use for heating a house here so it is mostly the 100 lb. bottles for kitchen ranges or other appliances. At least I have never seen one of the 500 gallon tanks here - I will have to look around some.

 

[Dextron]

I am going to set out some of my storage conundrums and see if anyone has thoughts, ideas or experiences on them:

Pressurized storage - I am doubtful I will find anything local which means shipping something in. Spendy for something this size but still a possible option if advantages outweigh costs.

Unpressurized vessels - quite likely to find something local - fuel or water tank(s) that could be retrofitted. Also thought I read a post that mentioned a liner kit where you build structure to support it. Sounds a little shaky but I guess that depends on the materials. Would think the liner would be nonmetallic so that should help with corrosion issues.

I was planning on running antifreeze in the boiler and the loop to the house. Pressurised or not I would like to avoid having to buy enough antifreeze for the storage. Could the storage be heated with a heat exchanger internal to the tank? That way there are no lines, valves, etc. with water in them and the mass of several hundred gallons of water should stay above freezing for a while if something unexpectedly prevented firing the boiler for a time. Or the storage could be drained off if need be. Maybe I'm being to paranoid about the possibility of freezing up but stuff happens sometimes and it seems to happen more when it is really cold out.

Boiler would be located in shop with lines running to house. Shop is currently well insulated but only heated when needed with a wood stove. Thought was waste heat off boiler would be enough to keep shop warm. Or add a couple Modine type units if needed or if I want some immediate heat at times.

This is kind of rambling and incomplete but I am working at coming up to speed on this stuff.

 

[maple1]

Search American Solartechnics (think I got that right) for semi-DIY non-pressurized tank kits. Or look for member 'Tom in Maine' here - those are his babies & there are lots of satisfied users here.

Where are you located?

 

[ewdudley]

Unpressurized vessels - quite likely to find something local - fuel or water tank(s) that could be retrofitted. Also thought I read a post that mentioned a liner kit where you build structure to support it. Sounds a little shaky but I guess that depends on the materials. Would think the liner would be nonmetallic so that should help with corrosion issues.

I was planning on running antifreeze in the boiler and the loop to the house.

Boiler would be located in shop with lines running to house. Shop is currently well insulated but only heated when needed with a wood stove. Thought was waste heat off boiler would be enough to keep shop warm. Or add a couple Modine type units if needed or if I want some immediate heat at times.

This is kind of rambling and incomplete but I am working at coming up to speed on this stuff.

If non-pressurized steel tank storage can be elevated to be highest point in system you could have sealed oxygen-tight storage with a bladder type expansion device (a.k.a. a big truck tire tube) as is done by Heatmor OWBs.

It's fairly easy to freeze-proof a system without resorting to antifreeze, even in an unheated shop, even in Yellowknife.

 

[Dextron]

Search American Solartechnics (think I got that right) for semi-DIY non-pressurized tank kits. Or look for member 'Tom in Maine' here - those are his babies & there are lots of satisfied users here.

Where are you located?

Thanks for the information. That looks interesting - I will have to talk to him.

I'm located in western Alaska.

 

[Dextron]

If non-pressurized steel tank storage can be elevated to be highest point in system you could have sealed oxygen-tight storage with a bladder type expansion device (a.k.a. a big truck tire tube) as is done by Heatmor OWBs.

I would have to check elevations but that could be another option.

It's fairly easy to freeze-proof a system without resorting to antifreeze, even in an unheated shop, even in Yellowknife.

I've had a few ideas on this. I may end up with a direct vent oil fired space heater as backup in the shop that could be left at some minimal setting. The shop holds heat quite well once the structure is warmed up but it seems that even well insulated the lines to the house might freeze if the circulator was down. Could heat trace those on a thermostat I suppose. Any more Ideas you have are welcome.

On the antifreeze, I guess it seems like a "just in case" protective measure plus it seems to be the local norm. The most common conventional heating system here is an oil fired boiler supplying either baseboard, some radiant floor or Modines in a shop situation - but they all use antifreeze.

Yellowknife, huh? Your winters are probably worse than ours. I'm in Nome, Alaska - out on the west side of the state.

 

[711mhw]

I gotta ask about collecting driftwood. Are your shores such that you can operate a pick up on them to collect it, are they logs? Pretty cool to have your wood "wash in". You definetly don't have to deal with the "tops"

 

[Dextron]

I gotta ask about collecting driftwood. Are your shores such that you can operate a pick up on them to collect it, are they logs? Pretty cool to have your wood "wash in". You definetly don't have to deal with the "tops"

Yes, there are miles of beach you can get a truck onto. It got cold enough with no snow this year that the sand froze so you could even pull a trailer some places. Very few branches on anything, most of it has been thrashed around enough that there isn't even any bark on it. In the condition it arrives it can be hard to tell species or age. I've always just thrown it in the stove and some pieces burned better than others - I really need to get a moisture tester. It is more like farming than logging - there is a new crop every year instead of waiting 50 years for a tree to grow. Also like farming, some years are better than others. The sand can be tough on the saw chain though.