Replacement engine for Huskee 22T splitter

[brenndatomu]

Are you only seeing 1ksi at stall? If so, that is strange. If you're reading pressure at any less than full stall, then it's probably irrelevant. Lower pressure while splitting is a reflection of what you're splitting and inter-stage bypass setting, not pump max capability.

No, relief is set at 2500, low speed/high pressure switchover is somewhere in the 4-500 psi range...the 1k I mentioned was what I see when busting up nasty stringy/crotch/knots logs, so my point was that people almost never actually "need" 20+ tons of force like they think they do...like I said earlier, 22 tons would crush rocks.

 

[J.Noss]

By flow rate alone, the maximum pump that the Huskee 22-ton platform can support is 18.5 GPM. This is based on two primary restrictions, the bung in the tank and the ports on the cylinder. The cylinder can be upgraded, but the bung in the tank requires cutting and welding. That might be worth it, if there weren't a second limitation based on fluid temperature. I've found that even 18.5 GPM is getting me something like 150F temp rise on the fluid, which on any day above 50F is putting my ATF above 200F... too hot.

Based on this, my recommendation for that platform would be 16 GPM, which will allow you to split on all but the hottest days of the year. You'll need to upgrade the suction hose to 1", and there are thin-wall steel hose barbs that you can replace the OEM one with to match that at the tank bung, and you'll probably also want to upgrade that hard line (3/8" ID?) on the cylinder to a proper 1/2" hose. *Figure on at least 270cc engine to drive a 16 gpm pump, or low-300cc's to drive 18.5 GPM.*

If the pump is too big for the engine what is going to happen? Stall out the engine on the tough pieces would be my guess but I figured I'd ask.
I have so darn much to do right now I still haven't even begun the swap to the 212cc engine and haven't yet purchased a higher GPM pump.. my thought was that an upgrade to 13gpm wouldn't be noticeable enough to make it worthwhile.
I'd really like to go 16gpm but I need this splitter operational and more than a day or 2 of having it outta action is gonna really hurt so I'm doing my best to get all the parts I need before I start.

 

[brenndatomu]

If the pump is too big for the engine what is going to happen? Stall out the engine on the tough pieces would be my guess but I figured I'd ask.
I have so darn much to do right now I still haven't even begun the swap to the 212cc engine and haven't yet purchased a higher GPM pump.. my thought was that an upgrade to 13gpm wouldn't be noticeable enough to make it worthwhile.
I'd really like to go 16gpm but I need this splitter operational and more than a day or 2 of having it outta action is gonna really hurt so I'm doing my best to get all the parts I need before I start.

Warning: hardcore splitter mod geekout ahead!
If you have the relief pressure, or switchover pressure set too high, yes, stall out on tough pieces. But as I said earlier, a 212cc will pull a 16 GPM pump up to 2500 PSI, no problem, if you want to go higher than that, just watch which pump you buy, they don't all have the same output on the 2nd stage (low flow/high pressure) which means different horsepower requirements...according to calculator that I linked to earlier, a 16 GPM pump will require 6.5 HP at 3000 PSI/3.7GPM (low flow/high pressure stage) or if set at 2500 PSI max 212cc/6.5HP will pull up to 4.45GPM in the low flow/high pressure stage...so you have to pay attention to what the specs are on the pump you buy if you want to successfully run a 212cc engine on a 16GPM pump, unless you are OK running ~2500 PSI (and like I said, that's how I have mine set, and I ain't stopped it yet, not even close (on "5hp" (really 4) 220VAC/15A electric motor)
And just FYI, a 13 GPM pump gains you almost 2 seconds over your 11 GPM, IF you go the full stroke out n back (assuming 4" cyl w/ 1.75" ram and 24" stroke) a 16 GPM pump will take almost 4 seconds off the 11 GPM time...but this is all in theory, since we can't know what the actual restrictions are in your system (undersized lines/fittings/etc) but just assuming that its the average "stock" Huskee 22 ton.
I went to a 16GPM pump, but also swapped out to a 4" cyl w/a 2.25" ram and 3/4" ports/fittings/hoses and I'm getting a real world 8.8-8.9 second cycle time, fully out n back...and so far no oil temp issues, not even close.

 

[J.Noss]

Warning: hardcore splitter mod geekout ahead!
If you have the relief pressure, or switchover pressure set too high, yes, stall out on tough pieces. But as I said earlier, a 212cc will pull a 16 GPM pump up to 2500 PSI, no problem, if you want to go higher than that, just watch which pump you buy, they don't all have the same output on the 2nd stage (low flow/high pressure) which means different horsepower requirements...according to calculator that I linked to earlier, a 16 GPM pump will require 6.5 HP at 3000 PSI/3.7GPM (low flow/high pressure stage) or if set at 2500 PSI max 212cc/6.5HP will pull up to 4.45GPM in the low flow/high pressure stage...so you have to pay attention to what the specs are on the pump you buy if you want to successfully run a 212cc engine on a 16GPM pump, unless you are OK running ~2500 PSI (and like I said, that's how I have mine set, and I ain't stopped it yet, not even close (on "5hp" (really 4) 220VAC/15A electric motor)
And just FYI, a 13 GPM pump gains you almost 2 seconds over your 11 GPM, IF you go the full stroke out n back (assuming 4" cyl w/ 1.75" ram and 24" stroke) a 16 GPM pump will take almost 4 seconds off the 11 GPM time...but this is all in theory, since we can't know what the actual restrictions are in your system (undersized lines/fittings/etc) but just assuming that its the average "stock" Huskee 22 ton.
I went to a 16GPM pump, but also swapped out to a 4" cyl w/a 2.25" ram and 3/4" ports/fittings/hoses and I'm getting a real world 8.8-8.9 second cycle time, fully out n back...and so far no oil temp issues, not even close.

I find it hard to find detailed specs on the low flow high pressure GPM side. All pumps advertise their low pressure speed but not so much with the high pressure side.
2 seconds isn't bad, especially when doing hundreds/thousands of splits in a given day, but 4 seconds sounds twice as nice.
And I am working with a completely stock Huskee, and the less mods the better not only because of price but because I'm going to have to pay someone with more know-how to do the welding to mount the new engine as well as probably set up the hydraulic pickup line before the pump, I see the size of lines is different between a 11gpm pump and a 13/16gpm pump, and I hope it's not too hard to change out what appears to be a hard steel supply line that goes into the filter to some sort of larger flexible line to get it up to the pump, if I had a workable list of parts it'd be great.. all I got so far is the engine, the pump to engine mount, and the coupler.
I'm totally obsessing and losing sleep over this.. I have 30 more cord of wood to cut/split/stack before July and I'm right now using a splitter that has the top of the engine off and the gas-tank hooked around a tree and to start the engine that essentially requires me wrapping a rope around the top of the engine and pulling it over like that.

 

[brenndatomu]

The hi/ lo flow spec is usually there...it reads something like 13.4/3.8...which equals more than 16, but no pump is 100% efficient. Often that spec is in the pump pics, etched right on the housing.
Keep in mind that 2/4 second savings is on a full stroke, a partial stroke is faster, but also results in less time savings comparitivly...you don't go full stroke on every split, right?

 

[J.Noss]

The hi/ lo flow spec is usually there...it reads something like 13.4/3.8...which equals more than 16, but no pump is 100% efficient. Often that spec is in the pump pics, etched right on the housing.
Keep in mind that 2/4 second savings is on a full stroke, a partial stroke is faster, but also results in less time savings comparitivly...you don't go full stroke on every split, right?

Right, only about 1/3 is a full stroke as I split in outdoor furnace lengths and indoor stove lengths.. was just looking a 16gpm Dalton and theirs is listed as 16/5 for high/low speed and that definitely puts me over the HP rating of the 212cc engine if the 5gpm at high pressure is correct. But as of yet that's the only website that lists anything for the high/low GPM both and if looking on Amazon at the $110-170 ones there's no info available. I've been going through that log splitter plans site said about earlier and none of the websites have anything about that except Dalton

 

[J.Noss]

Ah! I now went to rugged made website.. their 16gpm is rated at 1st stage 12.4gpm at 600psi and 2nd stage 4.1gpm at 3000psi
Their 11-13 gpm are both rated at 2.1gpm at 3000psi for the 2nd stage with the difference being the 1st which is 10.46gpm for the 13 and only 8.4gpm for the 11... that doubling of the 2nd stage is pretty significant between the 2.
But I figure if the 11gpm pump that's on the splitter now puts out the same 2.1gpm for the 2nd stage then the 212cc Predator should be able to turn a lot more than that! Right now in the 2nd stage the B.Stratton engine acts as if though it's not even pushing anything and only shows any signs of a real load right before it switches over, and that's a beat-up 20yr old 190cc. It's a gamble I guess to try going up to the 16gpm with only 212cc but they did have a Predator 224cc that had 20% more torque.. guess I should've gotten that

 

[Ashful]

If the pump is too big for the engine what is going to happen?

Just for the sake of curiosity, I tried running a 16 GPM pump on the stock Briggs 675e engine, that came on my Huskee 22-ton splitter, and it wouldn't even dry-cycle the cylinder on 60°F ATF without serious bogging. It was in no way a "useable" rig.

The hi/ lo flow spec is usually there...it reads something like 13.4/3.8...which equals more than 16, but no pump is 100% efficient.

I know you know this, but for everyone else, the numbers stamped on these pumps are rated in mL/revolution displacement. Those numbers printed on the side of every pump (eg. 13.4/3.8) translate to 12.74 and 3.61 GPM at 3600 RPM. At low pressure, before bypass valve spills around the 13.4 mL/rev stage, you have the sum of both stages working in parallel... 12.74 + 3.61 = 16.35 GPM. When pressure builds beyond bypass setting, some or all of the fluid pushes around the high-speed stage, dropping speed toward an eventual 3.8 mL/rev = 3.6 GPM at 3600 RPM.

As to efficiency, I would expect this affects only motor load, not flow rate, as hydraulic fluid is nearly incompressible. Physics tells us that without compression, no "work" is being done on the fluid, and thus efficiency (heat) cannot affect flow rate in any primary way.

 

[J.Noss]

Just for the sake of curiosity, I tried running a 16 GPM pump on the stock Briggs 675e engine, that came on my Huskee 22-ton splitter, and it wouldn't even dry-cycle the cylinder on 60°F ATF without serious bogging. It was in no way a "useable" rig.


I know you know this, but for everyone else, the numbers stamped on these pumps are rated in mL/revolution displacement. Those numbers printed on the side of every pump (eg. 13.4/3.8) translate to 12.74 and 3.61 GPM at 3600 RPM. At low pressure, before bypass valve spills around the 13.4 mL/rev stage, you have the sum of both stages working in parallel... 12.74 + 3.61 = 16.35 GPM. When pressure builds beyond bypass setting, some or all of the fluid pushes around the high-speed stage, dropping speed toward an eventual 3.8 mL/rev = 3.6 GPM at 3600 RPM.

As to efficiency, I would expect this affects only motor load, not flow rate, as hydraulic fluid is nearly incompressible. Physics tells us that without compression, no "work" is being done on the fluid, and thus efficiency (heat) cannot affect flow rate in any primary way.

Alright thanks for sharing this experience, I decided to go 13gpm Rugged Made pump.. I figured that's an extra 20% speed without having to take the 212cc engine back and go up to 300cc (which would cost another $200) and then I can crank the unloading speed and max pressure up real high without getting too much temperature rise in the hydraulic fluid like it would with 16gpm. If I would have known all that I do now I probably would have gotten a 300cc engine to start with..
See, there's a guy I work for who has a Huskee 22ton like mine and I never could figure out why he had a big 9hp engine and why his seemed to cycle so much faster.. now I do. He didn't seem to know why either as he bought it that way I think from his brother. I'm unsure of the GPM on his pump but I'm probably gonna check next time I'm out there. But that engine he has smokes real bad uses a ton of gas and is really hard to start.. I don't want that. So the 212cc is the way I'm gonna go.
Thank you Ashful and brenndatomu for your help and input.

 

[Ashful]

Sounds like a plan, Noss!

If you ever come across a cheap 270+cc engine that will allow you to repower and go to 16 GPM, seriously favor engines equipped with electric start. Pulling the rip cord on a 270+cc engine connected to a 16 GPM pump is not something you'll want to do every cold winter Saturday morning. No need for battery and all, just jump it off your tractor for that first cold start of the morning. After it's warmed up, restarting by hand is no issue.

I actually installed full key start on mine, and made an extension cable using 50A 12VDC battery connectors, to just plug the splitter into my tractor when I want to use the electric start. That works out to the first start of the day, most Saturday mornings December thru March. Jumper cables work too, but are too prone to accidents, IMO.

 

[salecker]

Alright thanks for sharing this experience, I decided to go 13gpm Rugged Made pump.. I figured that's an extra 20% speed without having to take the 212cc engine back and go up to 300cc (which would cost another $200) and then I can crank the unloading speed and max pressure up real high without getting too much temperature rise in the hydraulic fluid like it would with 16gpm. If I would have known all that I do now I probably would have gotten a 300cc engine to start with..
See, there's a guy I work for who has a Huskee 22ton like mine and I never could figure out why he had a big 9hp engine and why his seemed to cycle so much faster.. now I do. He didn't seem to know why either as he bought it that way I think from his brother. I'm unsure of the GPM on his pump but I'm probably gonna check next time I'm out there. But that engine he has smokes real bad uses a ton of gas and is really hard to start.. I don't want that. So the 212cc is the way I'm gonna go.
Thank you Ashful and brenndatomu for your help and input.

Sounds like the engine needs a tune up. At least tell him to try some Seafoam in it.

 

[brenndatomu]

that engine he has smokes real bad uses a ton of gas and is really hard to start

Sounds like the engine needs a tune up. At least tell him to try some Seafoam in it.

Oil could be full of gas from a leaky float valve too...