Regulated burners - cold start tips?

[Poindexter]

OMG. Can't you simply reload a bit sooner onto a good coal bed? Rather than dealing with kindling?

Yup, in general I can. From about mid November to January 31st my cat is active and engaged unless I am loading more wood on plenty of coals. It's the shoulders where my stove is putting enough heat into my envelope that I don't want it running 24/7.

 

[Highbeam]

Yup, in general I can. From about mid November to January 31st my cat is active and engaged unless I am loading more wood on plenty of coals. It's the shoulders where my stove is putting enough heat into my envelope that I don't want it running 24/7.

I light a new fire from a cold stove once per day unless it's "really" cold by PNW standards. Keeping a fire going is certainly possible but would overheat the place. This has been the result of insulation, air sealing, and general improvements to my old house.

So my one fire is a near full load of low btu wood from a cold start. It smokes like a freight train until the cat is engaged and the stat starts to slow down the intake air. I am following your thread because I am interested in reducing startup smoke even though I have never been subject to law enforcement attention for my emissions.

When you create this ideal douche fire (sorry, couldn't resist) do you find that your burn times are reduced since your fuel load is reduced? I am afraid that you are giving up the real benefit of a good cat stove which is the long burn times in favor of lower emissions. I feel like it wold be possible to build a very loose log cabin style stack of small splits and get to smoke free status quicker but then burn times would be low.

 

[Poindexter]

douche bouche not samey same, that backwards d makes all the difference.

Imma a try a teepee style vertical bouche arrangment soon, I agree a log cabin style structure of smalls is worth a try.

I am getting about the back half of the box loaded reasonably tight with regular sized splits, so I am still getting a pretty good slug of run time after I get it the cat lit off. Depends on how high the Tstat is set but four hours on high with ambients around 0dF is doable - with an essentially emission free hot re-load opportunity at the end of it.

 

[BrotherBart]

A bouche bag.

 

[rideau]

I have no experience with a BK, so am just throwing out suggestions. If you have access to lots of twigs, branches up to one inch, you could try what I do shoulder season.

I put about however many splits I want in the box, then load the remaining space with lots of twigs and small branches. I get an absolutely roaring fire in a matter of moments, the flue gets hot very quickly; I HAVE to shut everything pretty quickly because of how hot the stove and flue get. I have great secondaries , the cord wood ignites, I can shut the damper and air quickly, engage the cat as soon as the vigorous flames burn down, and I'm set for the long burn. It is a way of getting a cold stove to temp very quickly, and it keeps my yard clean, and the crown of the trees I process used.

Might be worth a try.

 

[Poindexter]

I did talk to a Pierce County, WA Sheriff Deputy on the phone today. 13.03(c) is still on the books as 20 minutes, but he doesn't know of anyone, ever having been ticketed for failing to get from a cold start to a clean plume in 20 minutes or less.

 

[begreen]

Interesting. I didn't know the county sheriff's office was ticketing authority here. FWIW I have never read about someone getting busted for a dirty start up here. Only for flagrant violation of a burn ban when in place.

 

[Poindexter]

Interesting. I didn't know the county sheriff's office was ticketing authority here. FWIW I have never read about someone getting busted for a dirty start up here. Only for flagrant violation of a burn ban when in place.

Why would the Sheriff's office not be the ticketing aurthority for county ordinances?

I guess is varies by state but I would think (from other jurisdictions where I was familiar) the sheriff and deputies would have county wide authority while the city po-po shouldn't be writing tickets outside city limits and the state troopers want nothing to do with no county ordinances.

Or not.

 

[BrotherBart]

One of the advantages of a non-cat. Pack the back of a cold firebox, put kindling in the front of it and a few chunks of Super Cedar or knotted newspaper on top of the kindling and, with the front exhaust exit, in minutes anything is passing through flames on its way to the flue collar. If a cold start isn't producing a clear plume out of the chimney in fifteen minutes or under I blew it.

Why I don't like stoves with by-passes. They put the dang things in the back of the firebox.

 

[begreen]

Not sure why but I thought perhaps the Puget Sound Clean Air Agency had some enforcing power. Guess not. I've never run into them so I am a bit in the dark about that in spite of being a local.

 

[Poindexter]

Not sure why but I thought perhaps the Puget Sound Clean Air Agency had some enforcing power. Guess not. I've never run into them so I am a bit in the dark about that in spite of being a local.

I truly don't know. Sheriff department seemed like a good guess as I had quoted a Tacoma/ Pierce Co. reg earlier in the thread.

I'm not sure any non cat stove will make the cut for EPA phase III, but I do agree non-cat stoves can get to a clean plume faster than a cat stove.

 

[Poindexter]

So a couple data points, but a murkier view than before.

I tried a teepee arrangement with super dry spruce, but I got a "witches hat" flame configuration doing that. You know how a witch's hat is a cone shape, only with the tip bent over? Like that, only the bent over tip was pointing into the scoop and not heating the cat. I took the teepee apart and ran with a random pile of smalls in front of the wall for the rest of that run and got to the hash in about 25 minutes, so 26 minutes minus reaction time to clean plume.

I am on call all weekend and probably won't have a mirror on my deck to measure reaction time before Monday.

Tonight I availed myself to some damper birch at 24%MC (wet basis), but only a tiny bit of it. I made all the smalls out of 24% birch with the 3 small splits of the bouche of 12% spruce, got to clean plume in 26:33.53.

I put an ad up on craigslist tonight looking for birch at 20% MC, we'll see.

I wouldn't mind some of you guys, regulated or not, trying to duplicate my results. I have one email from one assembly member already indicating they are monitoring this thread to write ordinance based in reality instead of what the EPA wants.

Like for instance, if you heat once to the notch and once to the hash - using your wood - how long does it take you to get to clean plume after the cat is engaged?

When BKVP Chris gets home from kiwi land in another week or two I'll ask him if the flame impingement I am doing intentionally is damaging my cat, they have been selling stoves to regulated burners for quite some time.

 

[Highbeam]

I truly don't know. Sheriff department seemed like a good guess as I had quoted a Tacoma/ Pierce Co. reg earlier in the thread.

I'm not sure any non cat stove will make the cut for EPA phase III, but I do agree non-cat stoves can get to a clean plume faster than a cat stove.

The Puget sound clean air agency has their own staff of enforcement inspectors. It won't be the sheriff. However, any sworn law enforcement officer has the ability to enforce any state law so if they felt like it even a state trooper could nail you for chimney smoke. Maybe even a game warden. If you're guilty, look for a white prius.

 

[Dairyman]

I'm not sure any non cat stove will make the cut for EPA phase III, but I do agree non-cat stoves can get to a clean plume faster than a cat stove.

There are several that are already below 2.0 G/hr.

I can be smoke free in 10-15 minutes easily on cold starts. 5 if everything go's perfectly. Reloads can be a little tricky if the coal bed is small.

 

[Poindexter]

I found some birch right at 21% MC average, wet basis, so right at barely legal. Enough of it to make the smalls and the bouche.



I am down to two variables that need to be controlled.

#1, curtain flame that is impinging directly on the bottom of the cat. Best way to make a curtain flame is to use a bouche and either a good or a maybe scoop configuration. Even with dry enough wood that a bouche is not required, my stove my stack etc using a bouche gets to a clean plume faster.

I did try the log cabin approach to smalls with no bouche, using 12%MC spruce and got 23 or 24 minutes from ignition to clean plume, wetter wood needs a bouche to be a contender.

#2. BTUs/ minute out of the smalls. I think a lot of the reason I got 26.5 minutes with birch smalls at 24%MC was the three EW pieces I used for the bouche were 12% spruce.

Tonight I used 20% birch for all of the smalls and the bouche, 27 minutes 38.26 seconds from ignition to clean plume.

I am going to suggest to my local borough that 30 minutes for a cold start is going to be barely attainable for most people most of the time that haven't read this thread.

I am kinda curious about using kiln dried 2x4 scraps for the bouche and the smalls. If I use a small enough amount to just get the cat hot before engaging the cat and burning the back half of the box full of regular cord wood splits, I think my risk of overheating the cat should be low. But I wonder if kiln dried 2x4 makes as many BTUs per minutes as the magnificent spruce I got. My spruce has a lot more pitch in it than any 2x4 I ever willingly bought.

Haven't measured my system reaction time as defined in post #40 above. I will be surprised if it is two minutes and gobsmacked if reaction time is seven minutes. My chore for Monday afternoon.

 

[Highbeam]

I see a full firebox, but only 50% of the firebox load is fuel. You'll never get a long burn like that and if you can't get a long burn then you might as well run a noncat. Is your intent to find an operating style during special events that's fine but most days you'll want to load some wood in there for a nice long burn.

 

[Poindexter]

I see a full firebox, but only 50% of the firebox load is fuel. You'll never get a long burn like that and if you can't get a long burn then you might as well run a noncat. Is your intent to find an operating style during special events that's fine but most days you'll want to load some wood in there for a nice long burn.

True, 50% load of regular sized splits. But I got a rapid (legal?) cold start. Once that 50% load has burnt down far enough, I can do a hot reload on coals with a 100% firebox load, my plume opacity should exceed 20% for less than three minutes - so a legal hot reload and a long burn out of the second load.

I tend to do hot reloads when the cat probe is down to the hash. My wood is dry enough that I can disengage, load and re-engage without the cat ever going inactive. YMMV based on MC, stack height, ambient temp and etc.

It comes down to outdoor ambient. If I shut down the stove at -30dF in January to sweep, I can get a legal cold start and then go back on a thrice daily hot load regime no problem. In shoulder season I can do a cold start when I get home from work, do a hot reload at bedtime, turn it down overnight and do a warm reload in the AM before I leave for work.

For me shoulder season and cold weather sweeping I guess would qualify as special events.

Actually, I just did a hot reload now. I got about 2.5 hours of active cat above the hash from the cold start I did earlier this evening. I had an enormous pile of EW coals in the back of the box, but the cat probe was down to the hash, so I disengaged, loaded the front of the box with more EW splits, closed the loading door and had the cat re-engaged in under 60 seconds. I am back on a hot reload cycle now. I'll be able to load a box full of splits in 12 ish hours without stalling the cat.

 

[Poindexter]

Ok, house cleaning, half a box of fresh wood and half a box of big coals, first reload after a cold start is only good for about 6 hours. Oops, sorry, but next time I'll know and get a full on hot reload about 9 hours after the cold start. Note to self: do cold starts on Saturday mornings.

Second, I finally dropped a conversation to BKVP/ Chris since I felt I had enough data to talk about. He suggested I try a top down regime, so I did. I used all 12% spruce again, I got plenty of that and limited access to 20% MC birch.

On the plus side I was able to build the whole thing without singing my fingers, and then light it. I clocked 26:59 to clean plume from iginition - but I am on a shorter stack and I am right at the outdoor ambient +32dF where my stack starts getting fussy. I think top down ignition is worthy of further investigation. My previous data points were measured with ambients in the -10dF to +10dF range.

I am also thinking about using more newsprint, a piece up each side so I have an upside down U shape over the smalls behind the bouche, and maybe a column of newsprint in the center of all the smalls to just get them lit the heck off. It is the EW pieces of the bouche that need to be well engulfed and well separated on the coals from the smalls to get the cat heated, I don't think the smalls have enough BTUs to get the job done alone in any reasonable time frame.

I got pics of the "cabin of smalls" behind the bouche build, but it is late now and I got call tomorrow night. Maybe pics Wednesday.

 

[Poindexter]

Lucky break, I got from ignition to clean plume in 23 minutes, and the ambient is my warmest yet for this data, +35dF.

What I am seeing is it takes a lot of BTUs to get the cat hot. A bushel basket full of smalls is just going to burn out too quick. They will make good heat while they are burning, but not enough to get the job done.

So tonight I put a full size split at the top of the bouche hoping it would nosedive between the wall and the bouche once the smalls burnt through to give me a bunch of sustained surface area lit. That part worked, but the lucky break was I had enough time, temperature and turbulence going, intermittently, to see the blue flame of secondary combustion. I am calling it beginners luck that I got the split at the bouche to drop where I wanted it, I am 1 for 1 on that score. The secondary burn was bonus.

Pic is fallen split, partially fallen bouche, pencil is air coming down the door, blue ink are the two places I was seeing intermittent blue flame. I hope BKVP doesn't have a cow what with me heating the stove this hard and all...

 

[Poindexter]

Still playing with secondary burns, its clearly the way to go. I got one cold start so far between 20 and 21 minutes from ignition to clean plume on my Ashford 30.

Getting a full size split to fall between the wall and the bouche is not worth planning on, I am like 1 for 4 now on that. I have been fooling with with different sized pieces arranged different ways trying to get a predictable, repeatable secondary burn going - using the smallest number of odd sized pieces, and the lowest possible count of each odd sized piece.

It seems to me priority #1 is getting a good constant secondary burn going. #2 is getting a good constant air gap at the very bottom of the bouche, so the air from the airwash down the front of the door gets drawn into the fire as low as possible. #3 is remember to turn off the darn fan.

I have been fooling a bit with BBQ chunks as bouche spacers, I have probably 3 years worth of mesquite chunks in stock. Preliminary results are promising, maybe a future purpose for all those 1" cookies coming off the logs I cut down to stove length pieces.

Also, I have been putting a P-shelf in the wall with good effect. Instead if a solid, smooth wall, I am reversing the second split from the bottom so the bark on it is towards the back of the stove, and the wall ends up with a full width groove in it about a quarter in deep. More turbulence in the TTT situation, and an eventual entry for the fire into the back half of the stove. I built one wall so solid the stove nearly burnt out with out getting the fuel load lit, kinda defeats the purpose.

P-shelf, P-channel, P-ledge, google "Peter van den Berg rocket stove" you'll get to a Dutch PhD with a forum hosted on donkeyboards, "answers questioned", he is all about introducing turbulence in just the right place.

When I am getting consistent sizable secondary burns and repeatable cold starts under 22 minutes I will update.

 

[Poindexter]

I got a 20 minute start today, with no fussy hotrodder style BS, using birch at 18%MC wet basis.

Starting with a freshly brushed flue and a room temperature stove, I laid a layer of splits on the floor NS, with kindling and tinder in the middle, then another layer of splits tilted 45 degrees, mine were (SE-NW) and then a couple on top back at NS. Box was only about half full, but lots of room for turbulent airflow. Lit that off and let it rip. I got to the hash and engaged the cat at T+20 minutes.

A couple hours from now at bedtime I'll wrangle the pieces around and fill the top of the box with fresh splits. Should be back on every 12 hour hot reload regime until it's time to brush the flue again.

 

[Poindexter]

Fresh data point for @BKVP, not sure if he subscribes to the Fairbanks newspaper, troubling article this morning.
I have a fresh combustor with maybe a half dozen burns on it.
I am sitting on eight cords for this season, pretty evenly distributed between 11-15% MC, I am calling it 13% average, with confidence.
I have some practice on regulated cold starts.

1941 Kindling ignition .

1945 First puff out of the stack at 50% opacity (not certified), closed loading door to cracked open.

1946 plume at 50% opacity, closed the loading door, fuel 50% charred, stack temp 200dF, probe at Inactive, first letter i.

1950 iNactive, door cracked

1953 door closed, 80% char, 400 dF flue, inaCtive, attached plume at 50% or greater

1959 inacTive, 100% char, flue gas 400dF, 50% or greater opacity attached

2000 inactIve, engaged, prompt glowing cat, 450 dF flue gas

2001 clean plume

16 minute cold start to the inspector on the street. Once my new combustor settles in I think another 3-5 minutes to clean plume on cold starts is reasonable and unavoidable I wouldn't want to describe myself has a has been drip under pressure, (ex-spurt), but getting a 20 minute cold start with fuel at 20% MC and less than three years of practice is not within the realm of likelihood for the general population.

 

[Sodbuster]

I don't see how this law is even practically enforced. The enforcement agencies whether it's the Sheriff or the Puget sound clean air agency, would have to know the minute you reload, and then just sit and watch for 20 minutes. Unless you've really pissed off some neighbors or have a lot of enemies, you shouldn't have to worry. Wow, that makes reloading stressful. What about steam not smoke? Many times what I have coming out of my chimney is steam, if the MC is a little too high.

 

[AlbergSteve]

Fresh data point for @BKVP, not sure if he subscribes to the Fairbanks newspaper, troubling article this morning.
I have a fresh combustor with maybe a half dozen burns on it.
I am sitting on eight cords for this season, pretty evenly distributed between 11-15% MC, I am calling it 13% average, with confidence.
I have some practice on regulated cold starts.

1941 Kindling ignition .

1945 First puff out of the stack at 50% opacity (not certified), closed loading door to cracked open.

1946 plume at 50% opacity, closed the loading door, fuel 50% charred, stack temp 200dF, probe at Inactive, first letter i.

1950 iNactive, door cracked

1953 door closed, 80% char, 400 dF flue, inaCtive, attached plume at 50% or greater

1959 inacTive, 100% char, flue gas 400dF, 50% or greater opacity attached

2000 inactIve, engaged, prompt glowing cat, 450 dF flue gas

2001 clean plume

16 minute cold start to the inspector on the street. Once my new combustor settles in I think another 3-5 minutes to clean plume on cold starts is reasonable and unavoidable I wouldn't want to describe myself has a has been drip under pressure, (ex-spurt), but getting a 20 minute cold start with fuel at 20% MC and less than three years of practice is not within the realm of likelihood for the general population.

Read that article, going to be interesting.
Someone once said, ''government is the price we pay for civility", and if we can't be civil, ie. not blow smoke in the neighbours yard or not flush our toilet on their lawn, the government will step in and help us be civil with our neighbours.
The article from a few days before on a residential chimney scrubber pilot program looked interesting as well.