Regulated burners - cold start tips?

[rdust]

Be careful with shooting too much hot air up the bypass. I've also been experimenting and had accidentally run my internal flue temps up over 1000 degrees with the cat meter only halfway to the active line. You don't want to warp the bypass gasket channels or damage the chimney trying to expedite the warm up process.

The key is to have a split right in the center, without that the flames have a straight path up the chimney. When I load I make it a point to make sure the flame path has to work around a split to get up the chimney. I've cooked my chimney once or twice when I don't notice the flames shooting straight up in the back of the stove. If I have flames getting sucked up the chimney I close the bypass if it's ready or not.

 

[Poindexter]

Read you 5x5 on not overheating the chimney. One of the kids did that for me just last week.

I am using a magnetic thermo on the outside of double wall stove pipe. Not accurate, might be way off, but it seems like 400dF indicated on the outside of the DWSP corsponds to ~ABOUT 1000dF flue temp if I was using a probe type. The kid started chimney fire occured with the magnetic stick on showing the outside of the DWSP at 550dF, probably ~ABOUT 1100 to 1400dF internal.

With 400 indicated and the door open the draft sounds "plenty" hot to me from my previous wood stove experience.

I do try to keep my starter fire towards the front of the stove so the cat is getting at least a little benefit from the flames going by.

Curious, anyone have a link to the ordinance calling for a six minute startup? How is the stack output measured? How many minutes in a regular ongoing hour is stack output x legal?

I might be inclined to get together with some of my neighbors to see how hast we could really do it and maybe write a letter o the ed of the local paper and email the same to the local selectmen or AQ board or whomever. Once you have a public document with a date on it you will at least have something to fight the ticket with, esp if the date on the letter to ed is earlier than the date on the ticket.

 

[Poindexter]

We have 6 minutes to go from startup to under 20% opacity or face a 1000$ fine. I don't even think it's possible.

I found section 13.03 (c) (Tacoma/Pierce Co. WA) here: (broken link removed to http://www.pscleanair.org/business/RegulationsandUpdates/Documents/1-13.pdf)

(c) Enforcement. Smoke visible from a chimney, flue or exhaust duct in excess of the opacity standard shall constitute prima facie evidence of unlawful operation of a solid fuel burning device. This presumption may be refuted by demonstration that the smoke was not caused by a solid fuel burning device. The provisions of this section shall not apply during the starting of a new fire for a period not to exceed twenty minutes in any four-hour period.

bold mine.

But do you get 20 minutes for start up and six minutes per hour as a 26 minute startup, or once you have used 20 minutes for startup is that all the time you get at 20% opacity for that one hour?

 

[Highbeam]

I found section 13.03 (c) (Tacoma/Pierce Co. WA) here: (broken link removed to http://www.pscleanair.org/business/RegulationsandUpdates/Documents/1-13.pdf)



bold mine.

But do you get 20 minutes for start up and six minutes per hour as a 26 minute startup, or once you have used 20 minutes for startup is that all the time you get at 20% opacity for that one hour?

(broken link removed to http://www.pscleanair.org/priorities/woodheating/Pages/burnbans.aspx)
This page lists off the "no more than 6 consecutive minutes exceeding 20% opacity is a violation" more than once with NO mention of startup allowance.

" It is always illegal to generate excessive smoke, defined as 20 percent opacity or more for more than six consecutive minutes, even when a burn ban is not in effect."

 

[Poindexter]

Well, some success this morning. I started with a flat bed of ash, knowing there were some coals in it. Cat probe was well down below inactive. From the the moment my first piece of tinder burst into flame to engaging the cat I got my elapsed time down to 19 minutes.

One variable I hadn't been controlling for earlier, turn the convection fan off. I don't know if I have been doing that consistently in the past, but I was careful to do it today. Running the convection fan - blowing room air over the stove top- is great for moving heat around the house, but logically an impediment to heating up the stove from a cold start.

Second, for now I am sticking with leaving the thermostat at 3/3 on my Ashford. Properly adjusted i can turn it up to 3.5 or maybe 4/3 when I meet the hard stop in the mechanism with the knob pointing right at 6 o'clock. I might in the future have to turn that knob to wide open to cut my time a bit further, but it will be one more thing to remember, "turn the Tsat back down to 3/3 when engaging the cat."

Also, getting the cat engaged does not instantly result in a clean stack plume, as Highbeam has observed repeatedly.

Finally, I am not equipped to start the stove this way and monitor my stack plume simultaneously. I have the door pretty wide open for quite a while using the method I am about to describe, running out in the yard to check the stack while the loading door is wide open is going to take two people. So I don't know how long after the first piece of tinder burst into flames (T=0) I first was generating a visible plume out the stack (T sub regulated =0).

I suspect I am blowing visible smoke longer after I have the cat engaged than I am saving time on the front end by starting to heat the stove without having a visible plume. Make sense?

Anyway, I have just been kinda stewing on the ideas y'all already provided in this thread, tried this and I know what I am going to try next.

NB: I have been loading EW for a couple weeks now. I am pretty sure I am getting more complete burns and less ash, but when it warms up here a little bit i will go back to NS loading so I am not worrying about burning splits rolling onto the glass.

First, fill the back of the box with regular splits and a couple bio-logs if you are using them. In the drawing attached, pencil lines are all wood. Sharpie is the side profile of my stove box. The blue square with the perpendicular lines is my cat. The wavy blue lines represent the coals I was able to scrape together this AM, just inside the door.

So fill the back of the box with regular splits, and I did my darndest to block the bypass flue exit with splits. I got to within about a centimeter (maybe half an inch) of blocking the front half of the firebox from the bypass exit with the last split up in there.

Then one regular split just inside the door resting partly on the firebrick and partly on the coals. Then some tinder (wood shavings) on the back half of the coal bed .

The side to side kindling pieces about half an inch in diameter, about a cm in diameter, pretty small stuff that will light pretty easy but not burn out in 15 seconds. These are all 16" pieces.

What I did was keep the loading door wide open until I mention it again. I got the back half of the box full. I got one decent split at the front resting partly on the coal bed. Some tinder, and maybe three or four 16" pieces half inch in diameter laying on the tinder. The tinder bursts into flames. The three or four 1/2" diameter pieces start burning.

Now some little tiny more tinder pieces (maybe 1/4" in diameter by 3" long), perpendicular to the 1/2" x 16" kindling that just lit. Then more 1/2x16 kindling, more perpendicular tinder, more kindling, to even with the top of the split at the front.

Keep the loading door wide open. Looking for the kindling to be lit all the way across left to right, not just burning at the ends.

Once the 1/2x16 kindling is going good, side to side, lit up all the way across, then a second split to fill more of the doorway opening, and fill the area behind the second door split, the area of the burning half inch diameter stuff with small splits, about the nominal size of 1x2 and 1x3 inch stock from Lowes or Home Depot or a lumber yard. Not really 1x3", nominal 1x3 lumber sized.

Loading door still wide open. What happened for me was my flue started to rumble like it was drawing about here, but without the flue probe budging off room temp. Let it run a while, I wanted the 1x2 and 1x3 stuff fully engulfed if I could.

Once the 1x2 and 1x3 is fully engulfed, then move the loading door to where it is just barely cracked open and get the blast thing going on.

Once the flue is hot by ear or by probe close the loading door, once the cat is hot engage the cat.

Next time I am going to break some half inch kindling pieces in half and lay them perpendicular to the already burning 1/2 stuff, between the two regular sized splits at the front. I hope that will let some air through to light off the 1x2 and 1x3 even better.

 

[NinjaTech]

Wow, you really have that down to a science..

 

[Poindexter]

Wow, you really have that down to a science..

I think I have a ways to go.

At the beginning of the burn, when the first piece of tinder bursts into flame, there is a short interval, probably seconds, before the first plume is visible at the top of my stack.

After the cat is engaged there is a longer interval, probably several minutes, after the cat is engaged but before the stack plume settles down.

So yeah, inside the house I got the cat engaged in under 20 minutes, but to the air police outside the house I think it would still measure more than 20 minutes for a cold start up.

I am stewing on ways to feed the barely hot cat just barely enough smoke to heat on up, _I think_ early in the burn I have enough wood lit making enough smoke that the cat is just overwhelmed. I wonder if it wouldn't help to heat the cat up a bit further before engagement.

Still open to ideas and brainstorms.

EDIT: this morning I heated the stove up to about a 1/4" on the dial above the active zone before I engaged the cat. I am not a EPA certified method 9 VEE and the sun hasn't actually risen yet, but I think I am on to something here, cause the stack plume looked pretty good by the time I got my boots on and got outdoors.

 

[rdust]

I really think you're worrying too much about this. Run the stove as a normal person would and worry about the rest later if need be. They will have much bigger offenders to worry about than you.

How many feet off the stack are they measuring opacity?

 

[NinjaTech]

I have never tried to do a start-up like this before but its an idea I had and I may try it out of curiosity. What if you loaded pretty much the entire firebox with small split kindling lite that off, left the door a bit cracked until the entire mess is a flaming inferno and shut the door then? The idea being lots of flame to get the stove and cat hot very quickly, it may only last an hour or so till its all burned to coals but then you have a good coal bed and a hot cat ready to go for your next 10 minute reload time allotment. I'm not sure how your schedule is and if you would be around an hour after first lighting it do reload it though.

Or just time your relights at night when its dark and they can't see smoke.

 

[Sodbuster]

I simply don't see how this is enforceable, the man hours to police such a ridiculous law would be insane. Stay on good terms with your neighbors, and you'll be fine.

 

[Poindexter]

We got into a little clean air discussion sidetrack on page one this thread. I have traded two emails just this afternoon with one of my borough assembly people. I am having a hard time getting from cold stove to clean plume in 20 minutes, using frankly magnificent spruce at 12% MC. I think it highly unlikely that my neighbors will be able to do any better using "legal" birch at 20%MC, in a cold catalytic stove made by any manufacturer.

I am advocating for my local assembly to amend the proposed ordinance to read "greater than 30% opacity for more than 10 minutes in any hour, except during the first 20 {i want 30 here} minutes after the initial firing of a cold unit, when the opacity limit shall be 50%."

I am not so much doing this for me as my community. There is no good reason to set a legal standard no one can attain, unless you have an ulterior motive.

The ordinance contains a nuisance clause, a clean fuel clause and several opacity clauses. As generally explicated on page one this thread I am in favor of the ordinance. I believe that shutting down the 30-50 worst burners, or educating them or rehabilitating them or whatever will dramatically improve the air quality for 50-60 thousand residents. Shutting down the two (TWO) bad burners in my neighborhood has made a huge impact on several hundred nearby neighbors.

Once we get those bad burners rehabilitated, we will probably have to look at vehicle emissions again to meet EPA regs.

As also mentioned on page one this thread the fines are high enough to be a severe inconvenience to bad burners, but not high enough for the borough (similar to a county in the lower 48) to turn this into a money-maker. This ordinance is going to lead to some lawsuits complete with full on jury trials. It is going to cost the borough some money to defend it. I don't think a 20 minute limit would stand up in court, I think a 30 minute limit on start-up emission probably could.

Especially given that non-cat stoves are going to have hard time meeting EPA phase III. I suspect phase III is going to be a field flooded with catalytic stoves with very few non cat options. Can I get a phase I non cat stove to 30% opacity on under 20 minutes? With 12%MC spruce, absolutely and so can my wife on the first try. Can I get a phase I non cat stove to 30% opacity in under 20 minutes with 20%MC birch? Well, with some kiln dried kindling and some practice I think so.

I think, overall, that a 20 minute limit on start-up is ridiculous given that "we" are moving to catalytic stoves. It is therefore a dumb rule to have on the books. So it shouldn't be on the books at all, and I am working on that.

 

[Poindexter]

How many feet off the stack are they measuring opacity?

I am signed up to take the EPA method 9 VEE field school exam in early March. Diving into the curriculum now. If you got a detached plume, opacity should be read between the stack and the detached plume. If you got an attached plume you got to locate the end of the steam plume and read opacity in the stuff still showing immediately where the steam portion of the plume ends.

Above about -20dF my stove makes a detached plume I am not at all worried about no sleazy irresponsible 30%. Below -20dF I pretty much have an attached plume and locating the end of the steam plume makes all the difference in the world.

FWIW EPA method 9 is a boneheaded choice for my local area. The sun doesn't really get high enough in the sky to use the published tables. I'll start a separate thread on that in the next couple weeks.

 

[Sodbuster]

This is a clear sign of people with nothing better to do than think up regulations. None of them probably even or have ever burned wood. You give me the cleanest stove on the market and I assure you I can make it smoke like like a freight train, by using crappy wood and poor burning methods.

 

[Poindexter]

This is a clear sign of people with nothing better to do than think up regulations. None of them probably even or have ever burned wood. You give me the cleanest stove on the market and I assure you I can make it smoke like like a freight train, by using crappy wood and poor burning methods.

Yup. I just about think it takes more than ignorance but actual malicious intent to run 16%MC wood in a phase II device and smoke out a neighborhood, but it can be done.

I would rather have sensible laws on the books than vigilantes running around with shotguns.

 

[Poindexter]

I got the cat engaged in 19 minutes again, but I only got to the notch. I did one thing not as well as before, one thing better than before, seems they cancelled each other out. I need to define some terms, look forward to other regulated burners chiming in.

First, the cat probe. If I engage the cat at "the notch", as demonstrated by Blaze King in the official BK video on YouTube, my plume takes several minutes to clean up while the cat keeps heating up. If I preheat my cat to "the hash" as in the hash mark, my plume is clean by the time I can slip my boots on and get outdoors, about 60 seconds.



There are two lag points in the system. I start my clock when the first piece of tinder bursts into flame. There is a probably brief interval after that before the smoke police on the curb in front of my house can see any visible smoke from my stack. I am calling that lag time the reaction time, as anyone with a timeslip from running a quarter mile will understand. At the drag strip, reaction time is the interval between the last light turning green and the car moving across the start line.

For a cold started stove I am defining reaction time as the time between the first piece of tinder bursting into flame that the operator can see, and the first puff smoke out the stack that the smoke police can see. It is probably a very short interval, I haven't measured mine yet.

So twice now I have been able to get from cold start to the notch in 19 minutes. What I am setting out to do next is get to the hash in 19 minutes. If I can get to the hash in 19 minutes I should have a clean plume 20 minutes after the first piece of tinder bursts into flame, so the smoke police at the curb would measure my cold start time as 20 minutes MINUS the reaction time.

The other lag in the system is the time from the catalytic converter being engaged to having an observable clean plume. I am calling that interval lag time. I know if I preheat to the notch my lag time is over 15 minutes. If I preheat to the hash my lag time is about one minute.

So far so good?

Ok, two more terms. The wishbone is bad. The curtain is good.

Here is a picture from the front, two identical stoves side by side. I got a split at the bottom front loaded EW, you can see the ends of three pieces of 1/2" kindling letting some air through, another EW split, ends of more kindling, a third EW split. Blue ball point represents flame.



If you could take the metal off the left side of the stove and look in from the side, here is the BAD wishbone in blue again, and the GOOD curtain in pencil.



Notice the curtain is heating the living bejeezuz out of the catalytic converter, while the wishbone goes around the cat and heats up the flue.

This is getting hard to format, I am going to continue in another post.

 

[Poindexter]

Two more terms, sorry, the wall and the scoop.

The wall is the front end of the preloaded full sized splits at the back of the stove. See post 29 above, I want the wall really tight so the flame curtain isn't leaking through into the main load behind it, I want it tight enough that maybe the surface of the wall starts to burn but there is no, or very limited burn penetration of the wall.

The scoop is that last split at the top of the wall that directs air into the flue. I went ahead and drew in the wishbone that accompanies the not good scoop in the illustration below.


Today I used a not good scoop but a good high airflow configuration just inside the door. Tomorrow I will try the maybe scoop at the top of the wall and spent tonight thinking of a name for the high airflow configuration of the splits and kindling just inside the door.

With a maybe scoop and a good wall I will time to both the notch and the hash, engage the cat at the hash and double check for a clean plume having engaged at the hash.

 

[rdust]

You need a new hobby! You're not the target of this law, you will be just fine burning like a normal human. Are you checking the opacity of your "plume" or just winging it? Remember 30% isn't smoke free, I have a feeling you're fine just burning the stove normal.

 

[Poindexter]

You need a new hobby! You're not the target of this law, you will be just fine burning like a normal human. Are you checking the opacity of your "plume" or just winging it? Remember 30% isn't smoke free, I have a feeling you're fine just burning the stove normal.

There is no question my stove is well within proposed opacity limits in normal operation and hot reloads. This thread is all about cold starts.

I have a suitable hobby. I am hotrodding my woodstove, and instead of risking speeding tickets hotrodding my car, this can save me getting ticketed.

I am starting the EPA method 9 VEE coursework tonight. My estimates of plume opacity to date are based on my knowledge as a serious amateur photographer; Ansel Adams I ain't, but I can identify zero opacity just fine and see it in my detached plume regularly. Finding the end of the steam plume to read my attached plumes is harder.

EDIT: On the Ringleman scale (used in California for some things but not in Alaska for anything) my detached plume reads somewhere between 0 and 20% opacity consistently, of this I am sure.

 

[rdust]

This thread is all about cold starts.

I realize that, while the plume may not be smoke free in the allotted time I have a feeling you'll meet the opacity limit.(even on the cold start) Of course if they're just looking to get rid of wood heat altogether no matter what you do it won't be enough. I guess you'll know when they start testing folks.

 

[shoot-straight]

i own an ashford. i am not a top down or " full load starter" guy. i build a hot fire with small kindling, it usually gets it pretty warm, then i add the full load of splits and engage. one nice thing is i have a pipe damper, when that kindling fire is roaring and sending all that heat up the flue and not heating the cat, i close it. it keeps more heat in and speeds things up.

 

[Woody Stover]

I have a suitable hobby. I am hotrodding my woodstove

There are no regulations here, but I still play around with different ramp-up methods like you're doing, to see how quickly and efficiently I can get to where I want to go. It's fun!

 

[Poindexter]

I am proposing "bouche" as the name of the arrangement at the stove front of EW small splits with NS small kindling to make air gaps. Without a better suggestion to the contrary I will run with it starting tommorrow night. From the Latin bucca for mouth, used in middle english and middle french for similar hot desirable things, and also the name of the wood stove in the Princess' castle in _Beauty and the Beast_.

So practice session tonight, someone had refilled the stove during my workday. I waited until fairly late in the evening to get the coals burned down, but I didn't wait for the cat to cool all the way to room temp.

I built a pretty good bouche, but I think in the future I will set the first NS pieces of small kindling directly on the steel frame of the door opening to introduce air from the door wash as low as possible into the curtain. Mine was good enough that I had a parted curtain (but not a wishbone) for a while, than a full curtain once the flame burnt through the middle.

I had no scoop even though I had three fireboxes full of wood to choose from on the living room carpet. Next I will try building the wall one course at a time and filling behind rather than filling up the box from the back and hoping it comes out right at the front wall. Seemed like without a scoop I got about 15 minutes of curtain before the top of the full load in the back of the box got pretty well lit off, wasting heat and slowing down getting the cat hot.

Turn off the darn convection fans for timed runs. It makes a huge difference.

 

[Hoozie]

As generally explicated on page one this thread I am in favor of the ordinance. I believe that shutting down the 30-50 worst burners, or educating them or rehabilitating them or whatever will dramatically improve the air quality for 50-60 thousand residents. Shutting down the two (TWO) bad burners in my neighborhood has made a huge impact on several hundred nearby neighbors.
Once we get those bad burners rehabilitated, we will probably have to look at vehicle emissions again to meet EPA regs.

Yeeeeuuuppp. This. x1000.

A while back I was talking with a friend who was lamenting the fact he couldn't burn on red days since his stove is rated for 2.6gm/hr, and you have to be under 2.5 to get a variance. "I can go outside and not see any smoke. Ridiculous I can't burn". Then he talked about going to another friends place an hour away, and how his stove always has smoke pouring out the chimney. So I had to explain that because of burners like that, the rest of us can't have nice things. Granted, this friend is well outside the air quality zone we're in, but the point remains.

I also want clean air, and I think the best way to get there is to get rid of the smoke dragons/fireplaces, and get new clean stoves installed.

 

[Poindexter]

I got from tinder bursting into flame, to clean stack plume in 22 minutes, 41.08 seconds tonight.

Time to measure the reaction time of my system to see how close I really am.

Tonight I remembered to turn off the darn convection fan. I built the wall solidly and filled in behind it. I ended with the "maybe" scoop configuration at the top of the wall. Once I had a pretty good curtain started I shut the loading door. It seems like an otherwise good bouche with the door open gives me the wishbone, but once I get the bouche built and the door shut I get a good curtain pretty quick as the door wash air comes down the front and then passes through the gaps in the bouche to the small kindling behind the bouche and in front of the wall.

Good feeling. I split more spruce tonight, and pretty darn small too.

 

[rideau]

OMG.

I can't believe all this effort needed to get to a clear exhaust .

Maybe I just do things differently, but I have a Woodstock PH, had Fireview before. Except at the very beginning of the year, never start a fire with a stove or flue temp under about 120, and that only happens if I let ALL the coals burn down, to the point where I only have about two cups of mixed ash and tiny coals. I certainly never HAVE to burn down to that point, and would not IF I were running into a problem with getting a clear exhaust quickly.

My normal procedure is to burn coals down to about a half gallon total coals and ash in each front corner of my stove. At that point both my flue and my Stove are about 225 degrees: still quite warm. I load the stove at that time for the long burn: anywhere from three to five splits (but if I was in an area that was monitoring my plume AND I had a problem with opacity, I would load the five splits always to lower the number of reloads a day). Those splits are ignited before the door is closed, which I close as soon as I have the splits in the stove. I have a strong draft. Within about a minute of ignition, the draft is roaring and I have large flame mass in the box. I then shut the damper flue about 3/4, and close the air about 1/4. [Should have stated I open flue damper, stove air supply and catalytic bypass before opening the door to reload]. I monitor the flue probe thermometer; as soon as it reads 500 degrees I shut the flue damper all the way, the air to 1/2 or less, and then the catalytic bypass as soon as the flames have calmed down a bit -maybe after a minute or so . That entire process is generally under ten minutes, using approximately 20% moisture content wood. The cat engages very quickly, often immediately, since it was usually still functioning when I opened the bypass immediately before reloading the stove. I generally have good secondary flames at this point too, which calm down when I close the air all the way, or have it just slightly cracked open, just a few minutes after the bypass has been closed. So, from reload to the stove set for the long burn is maybe 15 minutes.

I don't check my stack before this point, as I am in the process of starting a fire, but I have essentially never seen any smoke from my chimney after this point, so I have essentially never seen smoke from my chimney. When it is VERY cold out, I do get a steam plume for about five feet from my chimney, for the first short period of the burn, but it does not carry even to the end of my roof before it vanishes.

I don't use any kindling.

I may take up to ten to 15 minutes longer before I shut the stove down for the long burn, if it is very cold out (windy and 0F or colder) and I want to burn the stove hotter, but during those 10 to 15 minutes of getting the stove hotter and adjusting the air to do so, I already have no visible plume from my chimney: just heat waves.

So, I guess my question is, can't you start a BK on a decent bed of coals as if for a long, moderate burn rather than a long slow one, to get it to cat engagement quickly, then simply slow the stove quickly by adjusting the air, as soon as the cat is functioning? Then, you should not have any visible smoke in a very short time. .

Can't you simply reload a bit sooner onto a good coal bed? Rather than dealing with kindling?