Regulated burners - cold start tips?

[Poindexter]

I am in an EPA non-attainment area for air quality. Starting probably Feb 13th, about two weeks from now, I am going to have to deal with opacity.

On a hot stove I am fine. I am limited to 10 minutes per hour at 30%, less than 30% for the other 50 minutes in whatever one hour monitoring period. I can do a hot reload and re-engage the cat in under two minutes. With the cat engaged on 12-16%MC cord wood I am running at or near zero percent opacity.

On a cool reload, with a decent bed of coals in the ash first thing in the morning I can generally get the cat re-engaged in 15-18 minutes.

From my driveway I observe that with the cat engaged my opacity is pretty much zero percent. My wife actually signed me up for the EPA method 9 certification class. I should be an EPA method 9 daytime "VEE" sometime in April. The V is for visual , the first E is for Emissions, and I don't even know what the other E stands for yet. My detached plume is pretty darn clean. Below about -20dF my plume is attached to my stack, but it looks pretty clean on the downwind end.

On cold starts I got the 30% limit for ten minutes of any hour "except during the first twenty minutes after the initial firing of a cold unit when the opacity limit shall be less than 50 percent."

I did a cold start tonight after an unscheduled shutdown. See "my neighbor saw flames out of my chimney" thread. Starting with the house at 62dF ambient from the oil furnace, the lever in bypass, and the top of the chimney at ambient -25dF it took me twenty six minutes to get the cat engaged after I applied a lighter to the tinder under my kindling.

I am not sure if the attached plume I see on cold starts is measurable, or if I need to be evaluating the downwind end of the plume. The attached plume I see on cold starts is way over 50%.

How much kindling do you use on cold starts to keep the wood smoke police from knocking on your door? I used about a 2x4 split into many many pieces tonight, I think I should use at least double that next time.

Thanks

 

[Rossco]

No smoke Nazi's here but I tend to start fires with a Jenga pyramid of super dry pine. This is enough to get the stove real hot real quick and allows a HOT reload once the wood coals.

I find that better than trying to fire off a full load cold.

 

[Poindexter]

No smoke Nazi's here but I tend to start fires with a Jenga pyramid of super dry pine. This is enough to get the stove real hot real quick and allows a HOT reload once the wood coals.

I find that better than trying to fire off a full load cold.

So you basically make a coal bed out of kindling, and then do a hot reload? Sounds like it might work just fine.

Thank Jehoshaphat I'll only have to do this once per cord....

 

[brad wilton]

try top down start see how that goes

 

[rdust]

I can't believe they're going to have the man power to police that. I'd imagine someone will have to complain for them to come out. How are you or "they" measuring opacity? You with a modern stove will be the least of their worries.

I've never used the top down method for starting a fire but people say it helps the smoke on start up so give it a try.

If they're ever pull that around here I should be fine, no way to see my chimney from the road.

 

[Grisu]

Yep, lumber scraps or super-dry pine will burn with little smoke and get the stove hot quickly. If your draft is good you could also experiment with lowering the air some before closing the bypass. Less "cold" air rushing into the firebox means more heat will stay in the stove and not go up the flue. Dry wood is of course really important for that and don't overdo it that you smolder the fire.

 

[northwinds]

Isn't it dark outside just about all the time up there? Can't you just wait until dark?

 

[jeff_t]

Top down doesn't work so good with a bypass providing a straight shot up the stack. Works great on my non cat, not so well with the BK.

I build a fire from kindling and let it burn down to coals, then load up on that.

 

[Rossco]

So you basically make a coal bed out of kindling, and then do a hot reload? Sounds like it might work just fine.

Thank Jehoshaphat I'll only have to do this once per cord....

Yeah that's right.

I will light a small hot fire and walk away for a while. Then once Iam satisfied, the real wood goes in. If I judge it right the splits will lite off during the reload and I can engage the CAT with in few min's. I use this method because Iam slightly lazy. When I try to lite a full load off cold the pile will smoke and the heat finds it harder to get'er'going.

And I agree, I think it crazy that they try to police this smoke rule. Its responsible people with modern, efficient stoves that get caught in the cross fire. What's next? You need to circulate hot coolant around your vehicle before cold starting? Madness.

 

[Poindexter]

Just as a general kind of response to the the collective skeptics, I was one too. When I married and moved into the house my wife already owned I moved from one of the cleanest areas in town to one of the dirtiest. Now I am a believer. There have been times every winter when I could see the stars in the sky from one end of my yard, at the other end of my yard I was under the stagnant exhaust plume of the two "that guys" in my neighborhood, next door neighbors who managed to run 16% cordwood in EPA phase II devices and smoke up the entire neighborhood.

It took five years and countless thousands of hours of grass roots community action to close down two (2) bad burners operating solid fuel burners inefficiently across the street from Wood River elementary school. It's on the west side of town, the sniffer truck route criss-crosses the area pretty heavily. I live about 200 meters from the school.

Those two "bad burners" were shutdown finally, at point of court order 11 months ago. I now enjoy air as clean as anywhere else in the area. The ordinance before the borough assembly now, to be voted on by the assembly on Feb 12, will allow the borough to shutdown even moderately inefficient burners in areas where the air quality is particularly bad.

At the end of the day I think shutting down the 20-30 worst offending solid fuel burners in the air shed will make a noticeable difference for everyone in town. At that point i think "we" will not yet meet minimum EPA air quality standards and we will have to look at motor vehicle emissions again. We ran a five year smog check program up here, didn't make a measurable dent in air quality. For now you can cut the cats off your 2012 Corvette, run open pipe and not violate any local laws. Good luck driving a Corvette on our local roads....

I am glad I am not "that guy" operating a few blocks west of Randy Smith school in the north central part of town. His days of wood burning are clearly numbered.

(broken link removed to http://co.fairbanks.ak.us/airquality/)

January 28th:



PS: We plug in our head bolt heaters already. You can tell how healthy your car is by how cold it is out when you forget to plug in and the car still starts the next AM. My truck has a pretty standard setup, a heating pad under the battery, a special bolt replacing one of the factory ones that holds the cylinder head to the engine block, and an adhesive stuck on heating pad on the oil pan to keep the oil from gelling. Draws about 1kwh per hour when operating.

 

[rdust]

What is the penalty for people who don't meet the cut? Is it one and done or is there a process involved?

 

[Poindexter]

What is the penalty for people who don't meet the cut? Is it one and done or is there a process involved?

First offense for any line item is written warning, then fines. The thing is we have several active woodstove changeout programs. My wife and I were running a EPA phase I non-cat stove (lab cert 3.4g/h) last year and qualified for an exchange. We bought a new stove than was both under 2.5g/h and less than half of the 3.4 g/h put out by our old stove. We took our purchase receipt and old stove to the borough office, put the old stove in their dumpster and they wrote us a reimbursement check for the new stove.

The borough is claiming the power to shut down all solid fuel burning devices when air quality is bad enough. The consensus I heard at the public hearings was if they are going to do that they should shut down the smallest possible areas with the worst air quality asap so the rest of us with dry wood and clean stoves can keep burning. Like "that one guy" by Randy Smith school. They should be able to shut down every solid fuel burning device at that one street address and help him fix his problem, while his neighbors keep burning efficiently and also enjoy clean air.

Wood smoke emissions were compared by one speaker to septic output. The borough absolutely forbids us to collect all our household sewage into one pipe, run it to the property line and dump it in our neighbor's lawn.

Their is no good reason for anyone heating with wood that lives here to not be running a modern stove. The 20% MC limit on wood put in the stove by the operator is gonna be hard for some folks, but I am in favor.

Its going to be hard because with oil prices down #2 heating oil, the most commonly used fuel here, is down to about $3.30 per gallon. At that oil price one cord of seasoned birch @20%MC, BTU for BTU compared to oil, is only "worth" about $460, ass/u/me/ing you are willing to stack and carry and run the wood stove for free.

Going rate for a cord of green rounds, delivered, is $250. I have sold a few cords of green rounds delivered for $250, and it is barely worth my time, starting with free logs already on the ground. The guys making a living selling green rounds delivered at $250/ cord in general probably don't have three college degrees and decades of related experience. It is a lot of work, believe me I know, it is some of the hardest money I have earned in a long time.

The number of people who can start with green rounds delivered, split, stack, season load and deliver at say $400 per cord is essentially zero. Wood burners here are pretty much going to have to season their own wood, or it will be cheaper to burn oil.

 

[rdust]

The 20% MC limit on wood put in the stove by the operator is gonna be hard for some folks, but I am in favor.

Is that wet or dry basis on the moisture content? I have dry wood but I'm not a fan of this rule, it shouldn't matter what the m/c of the wood is if the stove is burning within their opacity requirements. Are they measuring the moisture content of the load in the stove or one stick? I don't see anyway this can be enforced, what are they're going to do split every piece of wood in every stack? IMO wood at 25% on a meter will burn just fine.

 

[Poindexter]

Is that wet or dry basis on the moisture content? I have dry wood but I'm not a fan of this rule, it shouldn't matter what the m/c of the wood is if the stove is burning within their opacity requirements. Are they measuring the moisture content of the load in the stove or one stick? I don't see anyway this can be enforced, what are they're going to do split every piece of wood in every stack? IMO wood at 25% on a meter will burn just fine.

In the current proposed ordinance it says (line 166) "no person shall burn any fuel..." line 170/171 any wood that does not meet the definition of clean wood and [after effective date] has more than 20% moisture content. In succesive lines of that section they forbid burning paint, animal carcasses, tires, plywood, manure, etc etc.

Whether dry or wet basis shall be used is not specified. Anyone who's wood does not measure 20% wet basis with a stick pin meter would of course be foolish to appeal for a dry basis determination.

I truly did not mean for this discussion to go here. I really do want to hear what I can try to get from cold stove to clean stack plume in under 20 minutes.

If all the air in the community is clean enough, there is nothing to complain about and they frankly don't have the money to pursue moderately efficient wood burners. The fines are high enough to inconvenience home owners, but not high enough for the borough to turn smoke enforcement into a moneymaker.

FWIW I pulled up a sniffer map from last winter before the court order. All the last winter sniffer maps are behind this link: https://fnsb.maps.arcgis.com/apps/P...ede045&group=694848c707b14705892bf0c3fe08fd40

I am also glad that so many of you enjoy clean enough air that you find this process unappealing. It does suck.

 

[Hoozie]

I'll have to experiment with the smaller fire to get the stove hot fast, then do a full reload. Sometimes a full load does take a while to actually take off. Though it's been so warm this year, I'm currently on the 2-3 small fires per day plan (and only 1.5ish cords burned thus far)

We're also in a non-attainment area, and while no one is sitting there with a tester to make sure you're clean after 20 minutes, it's there so if there's a complaint, they can sit and watch, then give you a warning and eventually fines. Because really, I don't think they'll care if you're clean after 23 minutes and not 20, but the smoke dragon blowing smoke all day is going to get spanked...

 

[Highbeam]

We have 6 minutes to go from startup to under 20% opacity or face a 1000$ fine. I don't even think it's possible.

The bk is a smoker big-time for probably the first hour. The things that help are smaller splits stacked with air gaps. I can get my noncat nc30 burning smoke free in less than half the time.

 

[rdust]

We have 6 minutes to go from startup to under 20% opacity or face a 1000$ fine. I don't even think it's possible.

The bk is a smoker big-time for probably the first hour. The things that help are smaller splits stacked with air gaps. I can get my noncat nc30 burning smoke free in less than half the time.

6 minutes is just a bad joke. I feel for you guys but have a feeling all of us with be dealing with similar things in the not so far future.

 

[Poindexter]

We're also in a non-attainment area, and while no one is sitting there with a tester to make sure you're clean after 20 minutes, it's there so if there's a complaint, they can sit and watch, then give you a warning and eventually fines. Because really, I don't think they'll care if you're clean after 23 minutes and not 20, but the smoke dragon blowing smoke all day is going to get spanked...

I am pretty sure that will be SOP here as well once it's on the books.

We have 6 minutes to go from startup to under 20% opacity or face a 1000$ fine. I don't even think it's possible.

The bk is a smoker big-time for probably the first hour. The things that help are smaller splits stacked with air gaps. I can get my noncat nc30 burning smoke free in less than half the time.

Has anyone in your jurisdiction ever been ticketed for that? Can anyone do it? If no one can do it they really ought to either go on and ban all stoves or change it to a number that 85% of the population can actually achieve on the first attempt. Jeez.

I am going to email the assembly that 25-30 minutes from cold start to engaged cat is barely achievable with 12%MC spruce and suggest they make that time frame attainable before they put it on the books.

 

[velvetfoot]

How about cracking open the stove door until the wood becomes fully charred?

 

[Hoozie]

Has anyone in your jurisdiction ever been ticketed for that?

There have been several fines handed out here ($750+ish?) over the last couple years, but I have no details at all about their burning habits up to that point. I'd hope they are for the most egregious of burners.

How about cracking open the stove door until the wood becomes fully charred?

As I used my copper 'blow' pipe to persuade the coals to light off sooner under a full earlier tonight, I considered attaching a hair dryer to be even more persuasive

 

[Highbeam]

I am pretty sure that will be SOP here as well once it's on the books.




Has anyone in your jurisdiction ever been ticketed for that? Can anyone do it? If no one can do it they really ought to either go on and ban all stoves or change it to a number that 85% of the population can actually achieve on the first attempt. Jeez.

I am going to email the assembly that 25-30 minutes from cold start to engaged cat is barely achievable with 12%MC spruce and suggest they make that time frame attainable before they put it on the books.

It is easy to fall into the lazy trap of hoping that the law is never enforced vs. Fighting the creation of the law in the first place. Most of us on this site are responsible wood burners and want our daily habits to be legal and not subject to 1000$ fines if we're caught.

 

[Poindexter]

It is easy to fall into the lazy trap of hoping that the law is never enforced vs. Fighting the creation of the law in the first place. Most of us on this site are responsible wood burners and want our daily habits to be legal and not subject to 1000$ fines if we're caught.

Yup. exactly. Knowing that it takes me 26 minutes to the cat engaged on my Ashford I would be inclined to challenge such a ticket in court if the local to me limit was 6 minutes. I am going to suggest to my assembly-people that 30 minutes is attainable by me using 12%MC wood, and a flue probe to keep from over firing my stove. I imagine that most anyone around who can beat my time with the same stove is either using more kindling than I did or is getting their flue/chimeny hotter than I really want to get mine.

 

[cannon]

Poindexter, to start my princess from cold I use a torch called a weed dragon,it's 500,000 btu's,you don't need to turn the torch on full throttle. I put in the kindling with some small spilts on top,[no newspaper under the kindling] leaving enough room at the top to put the torch in so it angles upward toward the flue exit.Make sure bypass is open.Turn up torch to preheat the flue and get the draft started, I usually preheat until the stove pipe thermometer reads about 150 to 200 deg. then I light the kindling with the torch.With this method you establish a good draft with out lighting a fire and waiting for it to heat the cold air coming down the chimney.

 

[Poindexter]

Some good ideas here, I think I have tried all of them. Been home on staycation this week.

If the stove is cold enough that the cat probe is down below the inactive range into the room temperature zone, my best time is 23 minutes and my worst time is 26 minutes. I haven't tried the Weed Dragon method, mostly because I would be sorely tempted to point it straight at the cat.

Imma email the borough assembly today. Heating a 500# stove up to 550dF takes some BTUs.

 

[Highbeam]

Imma email the borough assembly today. Heating a 500# stove up to 550dF takes some BTUs.

I wish you could talk some sense into our local air control retards. 6 minutes is BS. 1000$ fine is BS.

Be careful with shooting too much hot air up the bypass. I've also been experimenting and had accidentally run my internal flue temps up over 1000 degrees with the cat meter only halfway to the active line. You don't want to warp the bypass gasket channels or damage the chimney trying to expedite the warm up process.