Question about stoves with cats and electrical controls, and power outages

[TradEddie]

Google "Muffin Fan"?
Its a small cheap plastic fan like the ones used to cool computer cases.

It might melt if the battery ran out, so I used a can as a spacer. I had one lying around, but they cost less than $20 new. If I was buying, I'd get a proper DC blower, probably even with a metal case, but I'm on the lookout at work for one.

TE

 

[bag of hammers]

Google "Muffin Fan"?
Its a small cheap plastic fan like the ones used to cool computer cases.

It might melt if the battery ran out, so I used a can as a spacer. I had one lying around, but they cost less than $20 new. If I was buying, I'd get a proper DC blower, probably even with a metal case, but I'm on the lookout at work for one.

TE

Ahh ok - the can spacer made it sound like a home grown contraption. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[TradEddie]

There's no way I'd post a picture of it, "home grown contraption" is generous, but it worked. I just looked and it won't work so well with my new insert, I'll have to modify it, maybe even do it nicely.

TE

 

[bboulier]

I have a big Genny but if i really needed to my insert will heat the room its in to a bearable temp just not the home, like with the fan on it. It protrudes into the room a foot or so?? But yea if i really was worried about it i would buy the tiny $90 2-stroke HF generator. There 800Watts. Easily will run the blower and some lights and maybe small TV. I would then keep 10 gallons on hand and enough 2storke oil if you dont have it (i always do, in a pinch i could use boat 2stoke although i know you want air cooled oil) to mix that much fuel up. I think it only has a gallon or less capacity so you would get a good bit of time out of that much fuel, get 15 if you really want. Then once a year pour that fuel into your car and then go get new fresh fuel and add stabilizer to it and keep it for the next year.

I personally dont keep as much fuel onhand in cans as i should but my reasoning for not doing it is that i have 4 vehicles at my house and 2 boats. There is usually close to 30+ gallons availible amoung all these things. So if i needed to i would just drain the tanks on these as needed to get me through. And i am my own mechanic so i can handle draining the tanks if need be. I think the K10 has 12 gallons now, the bass boat has maybe 10ish the small boat has 6+, my ranger has half a tank or more, 9+ gallons, and just filled the saturn up at 12, and what is in the wifes car as of today?? My point if "sandy" or the "next winter storm" hit tonight this would be the fuel on hand right now. Plus there is a bit of saw gas and the few gallons in the 4wheeler.

Very helpful advice. I have a marine battery with inverter, but don't think it would run the insert fan for very long or anything else for that matter. I think I will get one of the HF small generators. Looks like just the item for the kind of emergencies we are likely to face.

 

[bag of hammers]

The $99 generators sound like a great deal. Sandy was a reminder to think again about picking up a unit, even though we're hundreds of miles from the damage. I was walking thru a local HD a few weeks ago and there were 3500W units on the rack for under $200. Not sure if it's great quality product, but there's one at my place now. No blower on the woodstove here, but I got enough juice for the sump pump (big concern), + couple lights, etc., if a tree takes out the power line somewhere on the road in a storm (not uncommon).

 

[jharkin]

GREAT IDEA! A stack powered Turbo fan!

Somebody should make one, very easy to do. Just put a 5 /12" diameter turbo blade in the stack with the shaft exiting out the back of the stack just above the stove with a fan blade just behind the stove blowing forward.

BRILLIANT IDEA! I'm suprised nobody has done it already?

Doing that with a turbine generating any significant airflow would kill the draft and most likely either the fire would die or you would start smoking up the room.

 

[OldLumberKid]

Cat or not won't have anything to do with it. Stoves with thermostats, like Blaze King and some VCs, are simple bimetallic coils. Purely mechanical, no electricity required.

Some inserts are better at convecting heat without a blower. Inserts that stick out farther are also better at radiating heat than a flush mounted insert. Not SOL without power, but maybe not the level of heat you would be used to.

Thanks! I missed this somehow, earlier on, but it's reassuring to know we're talking simple bimetallic coils here.

I run my BK insert all the time w/o the fan. My insert extends 13 inches out onto the hearth. Seems to do quiet well creating heat with out the fan running. … I also have a group 27 in the basement that I can use to run the fan thru an inverter. ...

Thanks, good news. And more ideas.

Are you sure freestanding is not an option? You might be surprised what can be made to work...

Yes, wife is already concerned on the aesthetics/obtrusiveness of merely an insert. … (indeed, she likes it cold.) It would be just for supplemental/backup heat. Though if we moved, I'd seriously look at a stove.

I've been through the "great blackout," and Sandy was another "shot over the bows" as to what life could be like with a pervasive power outage. So as I get over this flu thang, I'll get back on the horse and have that chimney inspected by a pro. A generator and a properly installed transfer switch also starts to sound like a good thing to have, albeit a temporary solution, when you consider the horrendous gas lines (waited 2.5 hours on one of 'em) and crazy gas shortages we had.

 

[Slow1]

A generator and a properly installed transfer switch also starts to sound like a good thing to have, albeit a temporary solution, when you consider the horrendous gas lines (waited 2.5 hours on one of 'em) and crazy gas shortages we had.

I've been giving serious thought to a diesel generator for that very reason - my thought being that in an emergency of that sort I have this tank of fuel oil in my basement that I don't use very fast (up to 275 gallons of it when full) so why not have the capability of drawing on it if fuel supplies are low/out in the general area... As I understand it home heating oil is essentially the same as diesel - or at least good enough to use in a pinch.

 

[tobaccogrower]

i run home heating fuel in my truck and tractors on the farm. same thing as diesel without the tax

 

[Highbeam]

i run home heating fuel in my truck and tractors on the farm. same thing as diesel without the tax

I agree. I buy off-road diesel for the tractor which is home heating oil from the fuel depot. Right behind me in line is the delivery truck. Man, talk about a money saver, I sometimes save 90 cents per gallon over pump prices when I buy non-road taxed diesel.

 

[fire_man]

I've been giving serious thought to a diesel generator for that very reason - my thought being that in an emergency of that sort I have this tank of fuel oil in my basement that I don't use very fast (up to 275 gallons of it when full) so why not have the capability of drawing on it if fuel supplies are low/out in the general area... As I understand it home heating oil is essentially the same as diesel - or at least good enough to use in a pinch.

Slow1: I've been thinking exactly the same way, I also have a 275 gallon heating oil tank. The problem is that from what I have so far determined, diesel generators are MUCH more expensive than gas or propane gens.

 

[Machria]

Slow1: I've been thinking exactly the same way, I also have a 275 gallon heating oil tank. The problem is that from what I have so far determined, diesel generators are MUCH more expensive than gas or propane gens.

That's not really true. I always here this, but if you price them, they are about the same price. The diesels run longer, last longer, are more efficeint. The only issue with them is they are LOUD!

 

[Slow1]

Slow1: I've been thinking exactly the same way, I also have a 275 gallon heating oil tank. The problem is that from what I have so far determined, diesel generators are MUCH more expensive than gas or propane gens.

I'm not sure exactly on the cost - As Machria says it doesn't seem to be a clear cut higher cost but then again it is hard to compare apples to apples in terms of quality etc. However, even if they are a bit more expensive I wonder if it may still be worth it in the case of a longer term emergency as without fuel the generator is worthless. I also am considering that for my area I don't anticipate using it very often - storage of the fuel is a concern and from what I understand diesel is safer to store (less in the way of fumes to be concerned with) and can be stored longer as long as it isn't exposed to air. This means that I could in theory keep several days fuel (I'm thinking 15-20 gallons) available and not worry about having to cycle it through every year to keep it fresh and useful....

 

[Machria]

You can store diesel/home heating oil (same thing), for YEARS. The only concern is to make sure it doesn't get mold/bacteria. Diesel fuel can grow a mold that reeks havoc on filters. But the easy fix is an addative that keeps it from growing.

Your going to want a hell of a lot more that "20 gallons" During sandy, it took me 3 days to get 5 gallons of fuel. They were out, or the wait was over a mile long down the rd, with no gaurrantee they would not run out before I got there, so I passed. If you install a whole house genset, your going to want/need a minimum of 200 gallons of fuel to keep it running a few weeks.

 

[Slow1]

You can store diesel/home heating oil (same thing), for YEARS. The only concern is to make sure it doesn't get mold/bacteria. Diesel fuel can grow a mold that reeks havoc on filters. But the easy fix is an addative that keeps it from growing.

Your going to want a hell of a lot more that "20 gallons" During sandy, it took me 3 days to get 5 gallons of fuel. They were out, or the wait was over a mile long down the rd, with no gaurrantee they would not run out before I got there, so I passed. If you install a whole house genset, your going to want/need a minimum of 200 gallons of fuel to keep it running a few weeks.

My 20 gallon concept is that it is enough for a few days, the big oil tank with 275 capacity (assume average of 50% full perhaps count on 100 gallons?) is my reserve for that "Sandy" event. I don't plan on buying or see the need for a whole house genset; rather just enough for critical systems to keep house livable - we have sufficient heat with the stove with 4 smaller kids having lights rather than candles and the ability to recharge batteries is a good thing - not to mention keeping the freezer/refridge food safe and edible.

Anyway - I see this topic has drifted considerably from the original post (sorry OP!).

 

[TradEddie]

Something else to remember in this diesel/gas decision is that many cars have anti-siphon devices; you may not be able to get that gas out. I'm confident that if it became a life or death situation, I'd get the gas out of any tank, but when you hear of people starving to death because they only had electric can openers...

TE

 

[Lanningjw]

I have a large wheel house generator and a transfer switch that will charge 6 zones in my home.With the transfer switch I am able to connect the gen just outside the garage and plug it into a 30 foot cord that plugs into a outside connection to the panel. I have a large chain to secure it from theft. My emergency plan was to only run it during the day to keep our fresh and frozen food from thawing and spoiling. It will also run the NG heater for the home along with outside and inside lights in several rooms of the house and kitchen.

My issue is keeping enough fuel on hand. I never keep the gens fuel tank filled, to ensure a good start with fresh gas. I keep 10 gallons of fuel around. I guess its a start but will be a problem when we need to use it.

 

[Highbeam]

That's not really true. I always here this, but if you price them, they are about the same price. The diesels run longer, last longer, are more efficeint. The only issue with them is they are LOUD!

I have priced them and they are NOT the same price. Not unless you compare premium gasoline (think huge honda inverter for 4000$) to a ghetto chinese diesel. I bought my 4000 watt champion gas genset for 250$ and it has performed very well, show me a diesel genset for 250$. The reason nobody owns diesel portable gensets is due to extremely high cost.

 

[Machria]

I have priced them and they are NOT the same price. Not unless you compare premium gasoline (think huge honda inverter for 4000$) to a ghetto chinese diesel. I bought my 4000 watt champion gas genset for 250$ and it has performed very well, show me a diesel genset for 250$. The reason nobody owns diesel portable gensets is due to extremely high cost.

If we are comparing Natural gas, gasoline and Diesel generators, we are talkin whole house standby type gensets, not $300 Costco/Walmart non-inverter gensets. Your not going to find a 2kw suitcase type natural gas genset.

If you price a 20kw unit up, they are all the same basic price.

 

[BrowningBAR]

What is a "muffin fan"?

It's a frank Zappa song, I believe. Wait, no, that's the Muffin Man.

The Muffin Man is seated at the table
In the laboratory of the Utility Muffin
Research Kitchen . . .
Reaching for an oversized chrome spoon
He gathers an intimate quantity of dried muffin remnants
And brushing his scapular aside
Proceeds to dump these inside of his shirt. . .
He turns to us and speaks:
"Some people like cupcakes better. I for one
Care less for them!"
Arrogantly twisting the sterile canvas snoot
of a fully charged icing anointment utensil
He pools forth a quarter-ounce green rosette (oh ah yuk yuk.
let's try that again . . .!)
He pools forth a quarter-ounce green rosette
Near the summit of a dense but radiant muffin
of his own design.
Later he says: "Some people . . . some people like cupcakes exclusively,
While I myself say there is naughl nor ought there be
Nothing so exalted on the faceof God's grey earth
As that prince of foods . . . The Muffin!"

Girl you thoughl he was a man
Bul he was a muffin
He hung around lill you found
That he didn't know nuthin'
Girl you thought he was a man
But he only was a-puffin'
No cries is heard in the night
As a result of him stuffin'

 

[Highbeam]

If you price a 20kw unit up, they are all the same basic price.

That's important. I didn't think anybody was talking about 20kw or any whole house set. You can run just about any gasoline genset on lp or ng, yes, even the little 2kw suitcase sets can be run on gas.

I don't live in an A/C part of the country so there is very little reason to have anything larger than 3000-4000 watts for whole house gensets. Mostly for refrigeration.

Again, for the normal sized 1000-10000+ watt gensets, diesel is extremely expensive.

 

[jharkin]

I have a large wheel house generator and a transfer switch that will charge 6 zones in my home.With the transfer switch I am able to connect the gen just outside the garage and plug it into a 30 foot cord that plugs into a outside connection to the panel. I have a large chain to secure it from theft. My emergency plan was to only run it during the day to keep our fresh and frozen food from thawing and spoiling. It will also run the NG heater for the home along with outside and inside lights in several rooms of the house and kitchen.

My issue is keeping enough fuel on hand. I never keep the gens fuel tank filled, to ensure a good start with fresh gas. I keep 10 gallons of fuel around. I guess its a start but will be a problem when we need to use it.

I do the same. 3200 watt gen and a hardwired xfer switch. A well insulated modern fridge only needs to run an hour or two per day to stay cold if you dont open it any more than asolutely necesary. During outages we run the generator for an hour at breakfast and an hour at dinner time. During the run time the fridge and freezer get chilled, I cycle the septic pump, fire the gas boiler once to heat the DHW tank, and we can use the coffee port, toaster, microwave to eat and recharge tablets and laptops.

10 gallons of gas could stretch to a week long outage this way. you get better gas mileage on these small generators running them fully loaded for shorter times vs. idling all day. I keep 2 cans full treated with stabil and run through the car every 6 months.

The key is to size your backup for the minimum needed to get by, not expect to carry on life with zero inconvenience (that gets extremely expensive).

 

[bag of hammers]

even the little 2kw suitcase sets can be run on gas.

Does this mean the off the shelf box store units can (easily) be modified to run on LP? I have a 3500W unit still in the box - willing to mangle it if I can get it to run on LP (safely)... thanks for any further info....

 

[bag of hammers]

The key is to size your backup for the minimum needed to get by, not expect to carry on life with zero inconvenience (that gets extremely expensive).

I'm kinda in the same head space at my new location (currently camp - eventually house). Can run the small BBQ for many days on a 20 lb tank (especially small quick meals). Small chest freezer stays chilled 24 hours easy. Wood stove for heat, home made outdoor wood sauna to wash up. Water from the lake in buckets if necessary. Outdoor crapper (yep - still standing) in case the septic pump goes south. Lots of LED flashlights, spare batteries, etc. Sure it's lots of work but it's like a week at camp would have been anyway a year ago. I realize everyone's mileage may vary, circumstances are different, and hearing a 20Kw backup generator kick in and trip the transfer switch with zero downtime would be sweet, but I can get us by on a $200 solution, which is also pretty cool.

 

[Ashful]

It's a frank Zappa song, I believe. Wait, no, that's the Muffin Man.

Same thing I was thinking... but you beat me to it!

If talking gen'sets, and you have gas or propane available, it's impossible to beat for pure reliability. If you have a compact utility tractor, that opens up the possibility of 3-point PTO driven generators, which one would imagine should be cheaper without the cost of an engine, but they never seem to be.