Proper burning techniques

[SolaGracia]

I am the owner of a new Regency i3100l stove insert. I have been having some issues getting quality burns out of the unit both in terms of duration and heat output. I need the unit to heat my entire living area. This is about 2600 sq. ft. The last week I have been using mildly seasoned ash/oak/cherry mix. I was told it was seasoned 2 years when I bought it but this cannot be true. Now, because it is not well seasoned, I was getting a lot of sparking and sizzling, as the moisture evaporated. Only getting 2-3 hour burns max, and sometimes need to leave the air control completely open to maintain the presence of a flame. So I went out and found some well seasoned wood and this is what I did next...

I took some well-seasoned ash (split & stacked 3-4 years) and I wanted to see what kind of burn a large load would result in. I need to figure out how to get the longest overnight burns possible. So, I started by adding 3 small splits to the fire. These were consumed within 1 hour. 3 more logs, again maybe 1.5 hours. Then I decided to load it up and see what I could do. So, I placed two large splits left to right, on top of the remains of the previous, semi-solid burned splits, and then 4 more smaller splits front to back. I shut the door and opened the air flow control, until the fire seemed very hot. However after about 3 minutes of this, one of the combustion air tubed began to turn dark to mildly bright red. So, I closed off the air. It seems strange this would happen as it should not have overfired so quickly. For about 15 minutes the fire burned hot with the air flow closed off, and in only one corner of my box was there secondary combustion. Then, after 1/2 hour, there is no secondary combustion, but evenly distributed light flames (with a bluer tone than I previously remember). 1/2 hour after that and the flames are dying down and the splits are more glowing orange than burning with flames. The flames flicker only inches above some of the orange glowing splits and there is definitely no secondary combustion.

I have not been able to get burns of more than 3 hours from the insert, no matter what I do. I have literally sat for days in front of this thing, staring at it and adjusting the air control this way and that, trying to understand the most efficient way to operate it. Good thing I like to watch fires! Keep in mind my firebox is relatively large, being 3 cubic ft. Perhaps someone might point out what I am doing wrong or what I should be doing? Is there a special way to place the splits in the firebox? Should I not be placing a large split directly in front of the glass door (will this block off the fresh air coming down and over the hot embers??). Should the unit always have secondary combustion, and if so, how does one go about maintaining this without manually adjusting the flow control every 15 minutes...I need more sleep than that

Also, how important is the heat of the ash base? If the ash base was created by the mildly seasoned wood I have been burning for a week, could this adversely effect the burns of even well-seasoned wood?


Thanks.

 

[LLigetfa]

My stove is purported to be 3.1 cu ft. Last night just before midnight, I raked the coals to the front, ashes to the back with my largest split E/W in the back and another large one on top of it. Meduim splits in front of that and a couple of smaller splits at the very front on top of the coals. Opened up the air to get a good flame started and then shut the air way down. Went to bed with the house at 76 degrees. Woke up six hours later to 76 degrees in the house (-15C outside) and a huge bed of coals onto which I tossed a couple of medium sized splits and opened the air to get it going. Closed it down and went to work. The wife kept the house warm all day and when I got home I was surprised to see the air still closed. Had to clean the glass after that. -20C outside now and the air is opened to 1/4.

 

[Jeb1heat]

My $.02 would be to get a good hot fire going with kindling and small size splits for starters to get a good coal bed. I have an insert and I don't really load it up full until there are hot coals on the bottom of the fire box. A smaller, hotter fire to start. This should be such that if you put in dry wood, and have air open, the new splits will catch fire shortly. Establishing coals, adding dry wood, and monitoring what the temperature is doing. You should see the temperature rise as you repeat the cycle. On my insert the temperature rises and secondary burns seem to occur when I can choke the air down after I have the fire established. Then cruise when you get to that sweet spot, I like 450-500 on my stove.If you are going air all the way to keep the fire burning the wood is green or you may be loading too large of splits for the fire you have going. You'll get alot of great info here, but keep at it and you'll have it down pat in no time. It took me some time to get my set up dialed in and most people will tell you it takes some time to get up the curve and know your stove.

 

[North of 60]

Fill the rest of the members in on your chimney. Length? Is it lined? Insulated? Interior or exterior? Is there a block off plate above the insert? Since you have been burning wet wood have you checked your chimney before trying the dry wood? Does it have a screened cap? Answer these and the light will shine from the hearth heavens. Good luck and welcome aboard.

 

[staplebox]

Ahhh... it seems you may be thinking too much. As my brother once told me, "There are a lot fire departments out there trying to figure out how to put out fires. Starting one should be is easy."

Not knowing your entire setup, it sounds like you just need some more practice. Good wood v. bad wood - mixing and matching - air control - etc. Sounds like you are on the right track, just keep playing with it, every setup is different. A 3ft box should give you more time then you have been getting. And that burn time does not mean big flames 8 hours later, it mean the same house temp and enough coals to get you going again.

 

[SolaGracia]

Fill the rest of the members in on your chimney. Length? Is it lined? Insulated? Interior or exterior? Is there a block off plate above the insert? Since you have been burning wet wood have you checked your chimney before trying the dry wood? Does it have a screened cap? Answer these and the light will shine from the hearth heavens. Good luck and welcome aboard.

Thanks for your input/encouragement everyone---

To answer the questions above, I'll start by saying that I am normally a DIY kind of guy---but I contracted a chimney sweep to install both a 25 ft insulated liner and make all of the stove connections, including the block off plate. He made a couple of short 15 degree connections to get from the smoke chamber to the actual insert. My chimney is all internal, except for about 2ft at the roof apex. This is approx. in the middle of the house. The chimney is the higher than anything else. The natural gas furnace / water heater have a separate flue next to the one for the insert. The chimney sweep cleaned the flue/smoke chamber first, prior to installing the liner. My chimney "corkscrews", and turns a few times, so coupled with snow on the roof, this would not have been a good idea for me to do myself. I have been making every attempt to burn the most seasoned wood I have. Most of it hasn't been "wet", I don't think, however I do not have a moisture meter (yet). In general, if a piece seems heavier than it should feel, I have been setting it aside. I had to change out the baffles since the original ones that came with the unit were cracked---and I took a peek up into the liner and didn't see any alarming creosote buildup. However I have noticed my rain cap (unscreened) seems to have been blackening. I didn't get out the binoculars, yet.

He also stuffed the old ash pit opening with insulation to prevent air flow there. I dont know how well they sealed the block off plate. I am assuming they put insulation there as well to make a "seal".

Does that answer all the questions?


Thanks!

 

[SolaGracia]

I am curious how you guys measure temps on these inserts. Right now I am just using a kitchen therm. right below the door on the ledge above the blowers. I have been using that to gauge my operating temp in lieu of have nothing at all.

 

[Captain]

I would highly recommend getting a stove thermometer and placing it on the top of your stove. I got mine from TSC for $12. It is the best way to gauge how your stove is burning. Also figure out what the max temp for your stove is.

As far as your technique, this is how I do it: Get a good bed of coals built up, and rake a majority of them to the front. Then add a few splits, let it heat up with door cracked open to allow max air, then after it has ran like this for a while, fill the box the rest of the way up. Leave the air wide open with door now shut, and when the temp reaches about 500°, I start gradually shutting the air down (usually in 3 or 4 increments until it's closed down). By the time I've shut the air control all the way down, I'm about 100° or more away from the max temp for the stove. Don't be afraid to get it hot (just don't overfire), they are made for it, and doing this regularly keeps everything clean.

Now granted I have a different stove, so yours will act differently, but this should get you down the right path. If you still have trouble doing this, go and get a bundle of kiln dried firewood from the store. If this solves your problems, then you know your wood has too much moisture. It sounds like your chimney is plenty high and set up correctly.

 

[michaelryba]

In addition to the comments about wood and air; I'd like to throw out one more thing: are you asking too much from the stove? As you can see from my signature line below, I have the virtually the same stove--abiet one size smaller. My firebox is 2.3 cu. But I'm only heating about 1000 sq. feet. Granted, my house is 80 years old & has a fair amount of windows; so my fireplace sizing works out about right. Your owner's manual claims that your insert will heat "up to 3000 sq. feet." That is probably true in a newer house in Seattle or someplace like that. Northern Ohio is just now getting some "real winter." I'm starting to run the air 1/4 to 1/3 open all the time and had to run the blower on high this morning to warm up the house to about 72 F. At the moment, air control is at 1/4 open & the 4-5 smaller splits put in at 7:30am are ash-covered, but glowing. I will start opening up the air soon to keep temps up & burn off the coals for the next load.

Also, in re-reading your original post, I think your being overy cautious about overfiring the stove. A couple of other posts on this site have reassurred me that getting a little color from those burn tubes in the firebox is not over-firing. In fact, that's what your supposed to do--good'n hot for about 15 min, and then back down the air in a couple of steps.

With natural gas prices pretty low at the moment, I wouldn't spend a lot of energy trying max-out your stove output. In fact, if your buying your wood (like me), it may actually be cheaper to run the furnace than burn a lot of wood to get those last btu's from the stove.

 

[SolaGracia]

Where does one place a stove thermometer on an insert such as mine? There is a shelf above and below the door, but I doubt this is reflecting internal temps very well.

Just an hour ago I split some logs down to pretty small pieces---I laid 2 longer pieces E-W, and 4 shorter pieces across N-S. Then I placed three small splits E-W on top of that. It lit up immediately very bright & hot. Turned down the air to about half, and after 1/2 hour, there were no flames, just charred splits. None of the wood I put in this thing seems to be burning completely through---even the coals, when I move them, have dark black centers and do not burn completely. My pile of unburnt coals keeps growing, and my fires keep getting worse and worse. The wood I am burning now is 3-4 year old ash/cherry that had been split and stacked the entire time. The wood is light, and produces a good knock. Seems that no matter what I do, if I have the air control down below 1/2, the flames completely go out. I have tried allowing air flow under the logs, etc. to no avail. Out of ideas. Next, I think I'll get a good moisture meter. Beyond that, I am just not sure what else to try. Just about all the advice I am hearing sounds much like what I am trying to do, albeit with different results. The only thing I am perhaps not doing is raking the coals to the front, because there are so many left over after every load!

Never thought this would be so difficult, but I am not surprised. I could use the N.G. furnace, but it produces an uncomfortable, drafty heat. My worst MCF usage last year was 38 MCF in Feb. When the insert is hot, it does heat up the area nicely--even if I am trying to heat a large area with old windows, etc. However even with my poor burns I am able to keep a range of 70-74 degrees. Even this varies quite a bit though. It is definitely never constant. Outside I noticed that when the air was wide open, I had a decent amount of smoke. With it mostly closed, I could not see any smoke but could smell it.

 

[michaelryba]

Your description of the burning--with plenty of air, flames, charring, but no secondary burn up top--is identical to my expreience using wood that wasn't fully seasoned. I did it as an experiment to see what wood that was at 26-28% on my (chepo) moisture meter did when burned. I don't have enoungh of the "good stuff" to get through the winter & hope this wood seasons some more before I need it.
Sounds like most of what you are doing is good. However, that pile of black coals in the back of your firebox is your best friend. You've essentially made your own lump charcoal. Bring that stuff forward, open the air 3/4 & it will burn hot & clean.

P.S. My highest bill using natural gas exclusively was 18 MCF

 

[Dieselbreath]

I also have a regency insert. (I2400). The ledge above the stove or the one below the door are not a good place to measure temperature since they both have air flow. I have found the best place is directly above the upper left corner of the door. I have an IR thermometer (point & shoot) that I frequently use. I like to get it up to 425 and cruise around 350 to 415. Don't know how accurate my thermometer is.
Last year I had less than seasoned wood and had to run with the air control open all the way to get any heat. This year I have good wood and run with the air control 1/4 open. I never have seen any smoke coming from the chimney. (probably have some on startup)
My secondary burn only becomes obvious when I am burning hot so I think it is normal to not see it all the time.
I assume you are using the fan. An insert is not much good without a fan.
My stove won't burn all night but I'm too lazy to get up and feed it so I just start it back up in the morning.
I love my stove (wish I had yours, but it wouldn't fit) and so much better than the fireplace I used before.

 

[SolaGracia]

You've essentially made your own lump charcoal.

Great---at least I am doing something well! Thanks for the comments, that helps.

 

[sandie]

I have a totally different stove BUT I do not see flames all the time and in fact when cruising at about 400 or so much of the time I see NO flames, it is burning though so watch your temp and if it is up about 400 do not worry about if it has a flame or not. IF you have the air open that is ok, it will burn faster but you do not have to have it closed down except at night when you want a slow long burn to get through the night and to do that as I understand it, you get a good fire going, load it up to the hilt, get it going really hot and then damper down, and air control down as much as is possible without putting out the fire but seems to me it never really will go out once it was going well, it will simmer all night so when you get up at least have red coals to get things going again. I have not tried for an overnight, not worth it to me since we do have the furnace to cut on at 55 at night and the stove going til it is out. A couple of mornings I had enough coals to get the kindling going and then built a fire on that.
There is a learning curve to any stove so just be patient and you will get the ahha moments as I have. I found I was fooling with the stove too much, one day I had to leave the house for 4 hrs and no one at home when I got home it was still burning and needed wood but until them about every hour I was getting up to the stove and messing with the air and putting in more wood etc. NOw I just fill it up and leave the air about 1/4" - 1/2" from closed. Seems to work with sometimes having to open it all up till it gets really going and then shutting down the air to that 1/2 or inch. I open my damper when putting in wood and then closing it about 5 min later after adding the wood. It does get easier. It is all worth it for sure.

 

[SolaGracia]

UPDATE:

I have a friend who has a Regency also, only the smaller model, and he visited with me tonight to do a burn with his well-seasoned wood in my insert. Turns out, I was simply not getting the temps high enough for the initial burn. He was very surprised at how long it took for the temps to rise to appropriate levels (40+ minutes from barely warm to 650F). I had purchased a magnetic therm. but didn't know exactly how to correlate its numbers to the actual flue temps. So, my friend did the tests for me and the temp at the front left above the door is about 50F lower than at the flue. I had only been letting this temp get to about 400 or 425 max. Simply put, I was not letting the fire get hot enough before starting to push down the air supply! We started this burn at 9:15 and now, at 12:30, it is still hot @ 300F. Not only that, but the house was noticeably hotter during the course of the burn, due to the higher temps. He showed me it was safe to let the temps hit 600-650F.

Also, on the Regency I3100, there is an air inlet in the front of the stove which needs to be cleared away of ash and debris before loading. This was pretty much plugged on mine with old ash and unburnt coals, and I am sure this was limiting the fresh air getting into the burn. So we cleared it out.

Some of the other advice on this thread suggested to pull the hot coals to the front, before next loading. Not sure if that is best for the Regency as that would definitely block those inlets---but for all I know, the inlets might be in the same place for all of these stoves. I'd be interested to know, and to know the reasoning for bringing the hot coals forward and if it really does still apply with my Regency I3100 given that I understand its design better now.

 

[LLigetfa]

You need to separate the large coals and bring those forward first as they won't clog up the zipper air. The smaller coals can go behind the big ones. I start by pushing everything to the back using the shovel upside down. Then I run the poker through the pile in the back which brings the big coals up to the top. I then rake those coals forward.

 

[Pagey]

Glad to hear you figured it out. I think one of the things that happens often is that people are so worried about "over firing" their particular stove, they often don't let the fire box get hot enough for good secondary combustion. If you're running a non-cat stove, you need it about 1,100F inside that box. That translates to a pretty warm surface temp. But, that is the nature of the beast on these non-cat stoves. You just have to get 'er up to temp, then start adjust the air down. With some loads on my stove, I can adjust down much quicker than others (say a load on a 2-3" hot coal bed). Other loads take a little more time and a few more adjustments. Whatever the case, I aim for a "cruising" temp of 600F.

 

[Lanningjw]

>The wood I am burning now is 3-4 year old ash/cherry that had been split and stacked the entire time. The wood is light, and produces a good knock<<<

Do you have a wood shed to keep the snow and rain off the wood? Its all about the wood, keeping the rain and snow off it during the burning season help. In the summer its no big deal to leave it uncover because it will dry out, in the fall get a roof over its head to ensure its good for burning in the winter.

 

[webby3650]

I think you just need a little more experience with this stove and maybe some better wood. I have a good friend with the I2400, he is heating a 1,800² ranch 24/7 his chimney is exterior and at the the far end of his house. He is yet to use any natural gas.