Pellet stove for small cabin

[pete7713]

Hi all!
I've been researching pellet stoves for the small cabin I'm preparing to have built (in Oregon) and this forum kept coming up in the searches. What a wealth of information! So, I thought I'd register!

I'm going off-grid and will be living in my cabin on a forested mountain (smallish one, lol) full-time and year-round. The winters don't get bitterly cold. The coldest the daytime temps get would be in the high 20s at the peak of winter and the coldest night time temps would be in the teens, generally. Very, very occasionally, a night might go down to the single digits. Rarely below 0.

My cabin will be about 400 square feet. There will be a lofted bedroom. (Real bedroom, not just a sleeping loft.) Most will be open except for the bathroom and a small utility room.

When I say "off-grid," I mean that I will have a 1.8 KwH solar power system supplying my electrical needs, a cistern, and on-site septic. I'm keeping plumbing to a minimum while still having indoor facilities and conveniences. Propane range, LED lighting, etc.

I think that a pellet stove would fit into this situation better than a wood stove because of the ability to fill the hopper and have it run for longer unattended; the ability to buy tons of pellets and have that fuel source stored easily and on-hand; the thermostat capabilities; and the cleaner nature of the burn and the process.

But I really need some guidance on my choices and info on particulars. First, the particulars: I see the stove also as a backup to the gas stove for heating water and (in a rare pinch) cooking. Does the top get hot enough to boil a pot of water within, say, 10 minutes? And would it be a problem to heat water on it daily for doing dishes?

Secondly, the floor of the cabin will be OSB plywood. Does one need a purchased hearth pad under the pellet stove or will installed porcelain tile only over the plywood be fine and not a fire hazard?

Now to stove choices! I've narrowed it down to the Enviro Mini and the Heatilator PS-35 (MAYBE 50 for the hopper size). Are there any others I'm missing in the $1,800-or-less good, reliable stove category for my use?

I'm starting to lean quite a bit toward the Heatilator because it has a Medium setting and a few more automated functions/bells and whistles that I think I'd appreciate. Is that foolish?

Thanks for your help!

I have a mini. It has a built in hearth pad, hopper holds 48 lbs, have 5 heating levels. I have no problem heating 1500 sq ft with it [ open floor plan]. If you use a thermostat you can set it to idle until heat is called for or shut down after 30 minutes than restart.

 

[Cabingirl]

Spupilup has a Wiseway. You might try contacting him for his experience. Here is a short thread he started.

Thank you! I've been reading the Wiseway posts!

Don't know if it's a good or bad thing that US Stove has bought Wiseway, sigh, but I noticed it's on the Home Depot website for my store in Oregon.

 

[Cabingirl]

Welcome Cabingirl. I have 2 quadrafire AE stoves, they offer battery backup, self cleaning burner pots, low maintenance. Mine are in the 60k BTU range. As far as electricity requirements I can hook my watt meter to see what draw during ignition and when the blower kicks on high, just to give you an idea of my particular stove.

Thank you so much! Wow, if you could do that, I would appreciate it immensely!

I've read that the Heatilator and Quadra use many of the same parts. So would it be safe to consider that the electric draw on the baby Heatilator (PS35) would be pretty much the same or less?

 

[Cabingirl]

I have a mini. It has a built in hearth pad, hopper holds 48 lbs, have 5 heating levels. I have no problem heating 1500 sq ft with it [ open floor plan]. If you use a thermostat you can set it to idle until heat is called for or shut down after 30 minutes than restart.

How is it on electricity usage? Is it true that you can do some functions manually and shut off the blower without a problem to save electricity? I read the manual online but found it to be a bit confusing.

 

[Chrisnow86]

I think in your situation a stove that requires no electricity to run would be best.. A lot less stress about batter back up or generators.. When your sleeping and it is the coldest your wont have to worry about power usage.. The stove will run..

 

[Cabingirl]

I really don't want to do fossil fuels for heat. It kind of defeats the purpose for going off-grid, philosophically. ESPECIALLY in Oregon, where wood products are the bread and butter of the local economy and measures are in place to operate responsibly and sustainably. We have an abundance of softwood and hardwood pellet producers. I have to cave to do propane for my range and gas for a generator at the moment but I plan to build up my array and battery storage over time to the point where it can support a convection oven and store more energy for a week. Technologically, we're getting there but haven't quite arrived. Panels have come way down in price and lithium battery storage is the future. The capacity just isn't quite there yet and, being new, the cost is still rather high. I can do one 3 Kw battery now. I hope to add another in parallel or see what larger options may come available. I've read that the Tesla Powerwall has stalled, unfortunately.

But I digress ...

 

[Cabingirl]

I think in your situation a stove that requires no electricity to run would be best.. A lot less stress about batter back up or generators.. When your sleeping and it is the coldest your wont have to worry about power usage.. The stove will run..

I think you're right. I'm reading more and more about the Wiseway and I *think* that some of the problems folks have had stemmed from burning softwood pellets. It seems like problems have been worked out and the stove was kind of designed for PNW/Oregon fuel. Since I'm in Oregon, that won't be a problem. Juniper and Ponderosa Pine grow like weeds and the pellet prices are quite good.

 

[Bioburner]

I hope the that Wiseway won't find its way to being manufactured in China as it seems a lot of USSC are going. I did see a nice rocket cook stove manufactured in China that I would like to see in person. It would not take much IMO to make a hybrid electric auger fed pellet rocket stove mass heater.
Another off grid stove if they are still being made is the Avent pellet stove. 12 volt, combo room fan and exhaust fan with a auger feed.

 

[Bioburner]

Another option for those cold nights

 

[pete7713]

How is it on electricity usage? Is it true that you can do some functions manually and shut off the blower without a problem to save electricity? I read the manual online but found it to be a bit confusing.

184 watts max. 600 watts during ignition. room blower can be turned off. you can manually light a stove than use it on high - low if you don't want to use the ignitor to save electricity. you will probably never use the maximum 184 watts using it on high heating 400 sq feet. i don't know much about solar panels but if you got a few cloudy days would you have enough electricity to run any stove?

 

[Spupilup]

Cabingirl, I own a Wiseway stove and all I can tell you is they work great. Every complaint I've read about the newer stoves tends to revolve around using the wrong fuel, poor installation or some other user error.

For example:

There was a recent post on the Google Group Wiseway forum from a guy complaining about having to alway tend to the stove. Well, there were two clear reasons why he was having problems. First, he was burning hardwood pellets (not necessarily a no no on its own) and second, was using the wrong secondary burn tray. The stove comes with a secondary burn tray for use with softwood pellets. Using the wrong pellets with the wrong tray will cause you to have to clear the tray more frequently.

I took it to heart when I read that the created designed the stove using softwood pellets, particularly Doug Fir. So, before I made my purchase I made sure i could get DF pellets. Problem #1 solved. The stove, with either DF or Spruce pellets from Okanagan, burns exceptionally well for days and days on end. The temperature from the DF's is a good 50-75 degrees hotter than what I get from the Spruce. I also don't have to worry about cleaning out the ash tray because with DF, for all practical purposes, there is no ash.

Now, the other major advantage in your off the grid situation would be the water jacket that can be installed on the back of the WIseway. It can provide heated water for a variety of purposes right on down to serving as a water heater for your cabin during the cold months. It can be used as a distiller. you can cook with it, the options, espcially for someone off the grid are limitless.

Concern about installation is over the top. I went with Venti double wall venting. It was much more expensive that Duravent or similar but if you choose one of the cheaper brands available from Home Depot and the like, you can save enough money and do it right.

To me, the last thing someone living off the grid would want to do is tie themselves to reliance on any more electrical generation than I absolutely needed. Heck you can even get a couple of Ecofans to help spread the heat (though in 400 square feet I doubt you're really need one), again, with absolutely no electrical use whatsoever.

Frankly; for your purposes, the last thing I would want to do is tie myself to a pellet stove that needed electricity. I'd take a woodstove (in fact I did for 28 years before finding the Wiseway) over an electric pellet stove any day of the week.

I could go on but you get my drift.

 

[Spupilup]

One last thing I forgot. With the Wiseway you get a 60 pound hopper. With either the DF or Spruce, on low (all you'll likely need with your space) you'll get well over 24 hours out of that hopper, probably closer to 30 hours. It's efficient, clean and reliable.

 

[Chrisnow86]

So I was right... I was the first person to suggest a wiseway... My wife never says I'm right so this is a first

 

[Bioburner]

One last thing I forgot. With the Wiseway you get a 60 pound hopper. With either the DF or Spruce, on low (all you'll likely need with your space) you'll get well over 24 hours out of that hopper, probably closer to 30 hours. It's efficient, clean and reliable.

So at 2 pounds an hour=16,000 btus and say 20% loss leave about 13k, Thats alot of heat yet.

 

[Cabingirl]

Another option for those cold nights

Haha, have 3, including an English bulldog that I wonder what the deer and other wildlife will make of. I'm calling her "the mythical pig-dog of the forest."

 

[Cabingirl]

Now, the other major advantage in your off the grid situation would be the water jacket that can be installed on the back of the WIseway. It can provide heated water for a variety of purposes right on down to serving as a water heater for your cabin during the cold months. It can be used as a distiller. you can cook with it, the options, espcially for someone off the grid are limitless..

Spupilup,
Thank you for responding! I've been reading the posts about the Wiseway and was going to ask you some questions!

I'm very much interested in the water jacket and other uses. How do you figure out how to use them, though? There aren't any instructions on the Wiseway website and the PDF manual is pretty bad. Very disjointed at times. Is there a thermostat in the Wiseway? Do you have to shut it down when the house gets to warm or will it shut down automatically? Does shutting it down and restarting it, say, twice per day waste a lot of pellets or no? With the size of my cabin, I'd think that I could shut it down because even low would get too much if it ran constantly. Is it possible to fit it with a thermostat if it doesn't have one?

Since there aren't a lot of diagrams and pictures of the stove, it's difficult to see all of the parts that comprise it -- any dials, controls, etc. Are there independent sites that show this? Oh, and what exactly does the "distiller" do? Heh, I've got Juniper trees (and berries) on my land so I guess I could make gin?

Living in Oregon, I'll have a lot of sources for premium local pellets and different types of softwood available. (Oddly enough, I thought that Douglas Fir was more of a hardwood or, at least, medium.) In the southern part of the state, we have a lot of Ponderosa Pine and Juniper.

I hope that US Stove doesn't ruin the stove or move the production and jobs out of Medford, OR. But I do hope they improve the manual and written materials!

 

[Monica in France]

I think that rich2500 has identified the main problem.
If your Cabin is well insulated your problem will be the minimum setting on the stove.
When it's cold there is no problem , but when you need just a little heating , below the minimum setting , a pellet stove has two alternatives
A: close down and re-ignite later.
B: go into a 'special mode'.
If you choose the former you are probably wise to have a spare 'candle' and know how to fit it.
(That said I have not seen any figures relating to the number of times they should light the pellets before failure.)
In the latter case , the algorithm used by the stove of your choice can not be worse than the one in my stove
which seems to use even more pellets and burns 'dirty' into the bargain.

I solve the problem by setting the thermostat higher and removing my pullover.

 

[Wilbur Feral]

Just a couple of thoughts:

A few posts back you commented that perhaps a Heatilator and Quad MT Vernon AE had similar power consumption. Very likely NOT the case. The MVAE is a unique stove for Quad, that uses DC motors. Much lower power consumption than other stoves, even in their lineup. However, it is also a very sophisticated stove that is more likely to require professional repair, very unique parts, etc. Far from ideal as a single, sole heat source. And yes, I own one. Good stove, but I would not use in your situation.

In later posts you ask several questions about starting/stopping stove due to overheating concerns, and doing so via thermostat. You are missing a couple of basic concepts that are especially important in your situation. First, the Wiseway is a non-electric stove, so as I see it YOU will be lighting it every time, not a thermostat. I definitely like the concept of a non-electric stove for off grid, but you give up some of the conveniences provided by electricity.

The other thing to understand is that use of the ignitor to start most pellet stoves (the convenience of the thermostat) is THE major user of electricity on many stoves, taking 300-400 watts for about 10-15 minutes, with each start. That will kill your battery backup very quickly in an off grid situation.

Sorry to be a bit of a downer, but realism is important. Also, I wondered what your plan is for being away for a couple of days during cold weather? With indoor plumbing, what happens when it's a rare 10-15 degree low, and you want to be away for a long weekend or for a visit somewhere, even if just due to illness? How do you keep the pipes from freezing? Or what happens if you need to wait three days for a pellet stove part? (most anyone who has one has had to do this after a few years). To be a little bit frank, I see some failure points in your plan that really do need to be addressed.

 

[Jim H.]

maybe a small pot belly wood stove could be a great backup just in case.....?

 

[Lake Girl]

cabingirl, there is the green room that quite frequently has discussions on solar arrays ... most of the forum members that have them use them as a feed-in system though. I recall one member saying his output was surprisingly good in the winter due to better conductivity in colder temps.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/forums/the-green-room.11/

 

[Cabingirl]

maybe a small pot belly wood stove could be a great backup just in case.....?

Yes, I'll have a small woodburner outside to duct in for emergencies. I have a model in mind and instructions from someone who has done just that. I can't do it right off the bat because it's not EPA-approved and, thus, not legal. So, it can only be a backup and it has to be configured after the inspectors sign off on my build.

 

[Cabingirl]

cabingirl, there is the green room that quite frequently has discussions on solar arrays ... most of the forum members that have them use them as a feed-in system though. I recall one member saying his output was surprisingly good in the winter due to better conductivity in colder temps.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/forums/the-green-room.11/

Yes, panels are more efficient in cooler temps! And when sunlight reflects off snow, a LOT of energy is produced! Thanks for the "green" link!

 

[Cabingirl]

Just a couple of thoughts:

A few posts back you commented that perhaps a Heatilator and Quad MT Vernon AE had similar power consumption. Very likely NOT the case. The MVAE is a unique stove for Quad, that uses DC motors. Much lower power consumption than other stoves, even in their lineup. However, it is also a very sophisticated stove that is more likely to require professional repair, very unique parts, etc. Far from ideal as a single, sole heat source. And yes, I own one. Good stove, but I would not use in your situation.

In later posts you ask several questions about starting/stopping stove due to overheating concerns, and doing so via thermostat. You are missing a couple of basic concepts that are especially important in your situation. First, the Wiseway is a non-electric stove, so as I see it YOU will be lighting it every time, not a thermostat. I definitely like the concept of a non-electric stove for off grid, but you give up some of the conveniences provided by electricity.

The other thing to understand is that use of the ignitor to start most pellet stoves (the convenience of the thermostat) is THE major user of electricity on many stoves, taking 300-400 watts for about 10-15 minutes, with each start. That will kill your battery backup very quickly in an off grid situation.

Sorry to be a bit of a downer, but realism is important. Also, I wondered what your plan is for being away for a couple of days during cold weather? With indoor plumbing, what happens when it's a rare 10-15 degree low, and you want to be away for a long weekend or for a visit somewhere, even if just due to illness? How do you keep the pipes from freezing? Or what happens if you need to wait three days for a pellet stove part? (most anyone who has one has had to do this after a few years). To be a little bit frank, I see some failure points in your plan that really do need to be addressed.

I know that the Wiseway is non-electric and I may not be using correct terms for the mechanics of the thing. I didn't expect it to have a programmable thermostat like the electric models do but the manual states that you need to raise the temperature inside to a certain number to ignite the pellets (it's manual ignition by a handheld propane torch) so there must be something inside of it that indicates internal temperature. I'm also wondering how you set it on High or Low, because apparently you can. There aren't clear diagrams of any of this in the only manual I've found online. I'm needing more info and if I can or need to hook up a thermostat or temperature gauge of some sort to it.

Also, the Wiseway is manufactured literally an hour from my property. Parts and service are available locally. When you live remote, you have replacement parts on hand, anyway, and you learn to do things yourself or have go-to people in your circle who can help you out. Those of us who are committed to off-grid living have backups to our backups and try to keep everything as simple as possible. That's the whole point of the lifestyle. The reason I'm here asking about pellet stoves is that I assemble as much information as possible before I decide, buy, and do.

Make no mistake, if it weren't for state law and EPA requirements, I would simply have a small outdoor wood-burning furnace connected to ductwork in the cabin, control the burn outside, and the heat inside through registers. But I can't legally. As I previously mentioned in this thread, I do plan to have a rocket stove or wood-burning furnace as a backup after the cabin is inspected and all is well. But it won't pass inspection unless I have a properly installed, EPA-approved heat source inside the cabin. Hence, the pellet stove. Other backups include generator-run space heaters and small indoor approved propane heater connected to a barbecue tank.

Regarding plumbing. Crawl-space pillow cistern, RV pump to kitchen faucet, all with disconnection capability for periods away, if necessary. The shower is not plumbed in. Rather, it's a Zodi Outback within a shower stall. Bathroom basin is a simple faucet with built-in pump from small 5-gallon tank in the vanity. Again, one disconnects if away. There is no water heater. In the winter, water is heated on the range. In the spring-summer-fall, in a solar tank. A small off-grid cabin winterizes similarly to an RV if one is away. RV antifreeze in the drains to prevent freezing and disconnecting water appliances.

Many off-grid folks use a wood stove for heat. I prefer a pellet stove -- even a non-electric one -- for the ability to load up the hopper, set the stove on low, and not have to reload it every 6 hours to have heat. If I can, indeed, get 30 hours out of the Wiseway hopper, then the cabin would stay reasonably warm if I had to go away for an overnight.

 

[Bioburner]

Maybe a visit to where they sell the Wiseway would be the most beneficial. The need to get to temp has to do with draft needs much like a fireplace, without proper draft the fire just smokes and won't draw up the flue. The needs of fire as explained to firefighters, is like a triangle. Needs enough heat to sustain fire, about 600 or so for wood, air- breath of the dragon and of course fuel. I understand fire in many forms and can't get into that here.

 

[JayB]

I have a cabin that is off-grid in southern Colorado I have a four burner propane stove and a propane heat stove I use 40lbs propane tanks on each. The heat stove uses no power it is thermostatic control, I set it for about 65 degrees because the loft gets warmer hot air rises. Do you plan to use solar hot water like the one on my roof.