PE summit and pacific owners have been holding out on us.

[milner351]

Well
Here's some pictures of where I had put the insulation.... I've removed it now, but sadly don't notice much of a difference.
There is some air being 'pulled' in under the stove, and there does seem to be a little coming out of the left side now, but not much.
So far - it doesn't seem to be making much of a difference, we'll see what happens as the stove acclimates itself to the change.

What I really want to know is, with today's technology - why has someone not developed a simple temperature controlled fan speed controller.
Think about it - it seems like it would be quite simple - a thermocouple would provide the input to a simple fan speed controller - as the fire box heated up - the blower would increase speed to put out maximum heat to the room - (this could be in the auto position) then, as the fire burned down -- the temperature in the firebox would reduce - and the fan speed would reduce accordingly.
I'm sure I'm over simplifying this - but honestly - with the price of these stoves and all the other advances - extended burn technology - air wash across the glass doors to keep them clean (something the summit is great at) etc etc.

 

[Cearbhaill]

WE RUN THE BLOWER ON HIGH ALL THE TIME :long:

Don't run it on high while the unit is heating up- it draws the heat out of the fire box. Let things get good and cooking first, then turn it up once you get to cruising temperatures.

 

[Hogwildz]

If you look at exloded parts list in the PE Summit insert manual there are actually two air deflectors behind the firebox to direct the blower air up and over the top and prevent it from getting to the other side of the shroud.

All that side mounting that blower did was let them build a Summit firebox insert that would fit in shorter fireplaces.

Edit: All the right front grill does is give the beast access to room air if the knock-out in the side of the right side casing is, well, knocked out.

Thats close.
The blower is on right side facing insert. the blown air actually exits the blower on the top right above the blower unit, then hits 2 air deflectors on top of the insert.
The left grille is as BB said, for air intake if using inside air intake and the knock out.

 

[iceman]

Well
Here's some pictures of where I had put the insulation.... I've removed it now, but sadly don't notice much of a difference.
There is some air being 'pulled' in under the stove, and there does seem to be a little coming out of the left side now, but not much.
So far - it doesn't seem to be making much of a difference, we'll see what happens as the stove acclimates itself to the change.

What I really want to know is, with today's technology - why has someone not developed a simple temperature controlled fan speed controller.
Think about it - it seems like it would be quite simple - a thermocouple would provide the input to a simple fan speed controller - as the fire box heated up - the blower would increase speed to put out maximum heat to the room - (this could be in the auto position) then, as the fire burned down -- the temperature in the firebox would reduce - and the fan speed would reduce accordingly.
I'm sure I'm over simplifying this - but honestly - with the price of these stoves and all the other advances - extended burn technology - air wash across the glass doors to keep them clean (something the summit is great at) etc etc.

that would be blocking your combustion air intake unless you use the knock out
the book says put the fan on high when the air is on high and fan on low when the air is on low.. lol thtas funny i don't know who does it... buti have actually turned my fan down and no diff in temp throughout the house

 

[milner351]

OK
Look at the picture on the right above - there is a circular knock out on the left most sheet metal - is this the knock out to allow room combustion air to enter the stove?

I'm tempted to open that up but not knock it out completely and see if that makes any difference.

This morning the house was at 60 - where we set the thermostat for the furnace - I had set the fan control to auto and it was not running - but came on shortly after I pulled the coals forward and put a small split near them and it lit off.

It's another under 20F day - and the stove just doesn't seem to be able to keep up..... what else am I doing wrong?

 

[Gunner]

OK
Look at the picture on the right above - there is a circular knock out on the left most sheet metal - is this the knock out to allow room combustion air to enter the stove?

I'm tempted to open that up but not knock it out completely and see if that makes any difference.

This morning the house was at 60 - where we set the thermostat for the furnace - I had set the fan control to auto and it was not running - but came on shortly after I pulled the coals forward and put a small split near them and it lit off.

It's another under 20F day - and the stove just doesn't seem to be able to keep up..... what else am I doing wrong?

READ YOUR MANUAL
(broken link removed to http://www.pacificenergy.net/product_insert_summit.php)

The knockout must be removed if you want to burn room air. You have a strangle hold on the sucker right now....let it breathe.

 

[milner351]

I followed the manual during the installation -- one of the reasons I bought this stove was because it used outside air for combustion - which is how I have it set up now.

The inlet for combustion air is on the "back wall" of the stove at the bottom. As it sits in my fireplace now - that opening is just above the ash clean out in the floor of the fireplace that leads through an opening in the brick chimney to the outside wall - where there is a steel door. The passage way is about two bricks high and a brick wide - roughly 2.5 feet long - I can reach my arm in from the outside and feel the back of the stove.

right now - it's pulling all it's combustion air through that passageway.

If I knock out the circle on the left side of the insert - I would imagine the stove would pull in a combination of inside and outside air -- unless I shove a bunch of insulation in the passage way from the outside to seal off the outdoor air path.

There's lots of opinions on both sides of this issue as I've read here - this could be another experiment on the subject I suppose.

 

[Gunner]

So your burning outside air... then the knockout stays in like you have it.

What temps are your burning at? A themo can be placed at the corner by the door. Other PE insert user are reporting 600-750 at that spot.

Could the ash cleanout that is drawing in combustion air from outside be cooling the whole cavity-reducing heat output? Any other summit insert people drawing outside air?

 

[milner351]

At this point I don't have a way to measure temps in the stove.

 

[Cearbhaill]

Have you tried running it with the blower off yet?
You mentioned that you always run the blower at full speed, and you are using cold outdoor air for combustion. I don't think it's any wonder at all that you can't get the firebox temps up.

A thermometer will run you under $20 and really is necessary to effectively determine what temps you are running. As mentioned above, a front thermometer on my insert gets up to 600-700ºF before I even turn the blower up. If I left the blower running wide open it would never get that hot.

 

[Gunner]

First we need to know that you are making heat, and the thermo is alot better that "it feels hot" or "throwing alot of heat"

Good hot temps that are easily achieved tell us that for the most part you have enough draft and wood is dry. We can back these temps up with a half a dozen other people burning PE inserts.

Next lets figure out why the heat is not getting out into the room. The ash cleanout is a possibility. Refresh my memory is there a block off plate.

 

[milner351]

Now that I have removed the insulation from between the shroud and stove - I will check the heat flow with the blower off soon.

We are headed out of town this weekend - my contractor friend is going to try to get the chimeny and cap cleaned while we're gone and the stove is cool... that may help a bit as well - but, the stove is not exhibiting any draft problems at the moment.


I was surprised to see that the air inlet (located near the bottom of the stove, in the center of the back 'wall' of the stove is pretty small - about 3/8" wide slot that's about 3" wide.

The hole in the bottom of the fireplace is about 6"x8" as is the passage way outside.


To test the outside air vs. inside air for combustion - I suppose I only need to push open the knock out on the left of the stove, and then stuff the outside ash clean out passage with insulation to block off the airflow.... right?

I will look into a thermometer -- are you measuring the temperature of the outter surface of the stove / door?

 

[milner351]

well, my wife tells me the stove has performed better today - it's not making as much ash / coals, and seems to be heating a bit better.

I won't have time to try the indoor combustion air knock out until next week - we're away for the weekend, thanks again so much for all your input.

 

[rg500930]

when i first saw your pic i thought "man that room must be cooking".since its on the smaller side.nice pic by the way.anyways you said you have a 8" liner.wonder if thats whats wrong.

 

[rg500930]

oh and another thing.when your friend cleans the chimney.when he takes your baffle out.make sure he covers the hole that connects to the baffle.so when the creasote falls into the insert it doesnt go into that air passage hole.

 

[iceman]

when i first saw your pic i thought "man that room must be cooking".since its on the smaller side.nice pic by the way.anyways you said you have a 8" liner.wonder if thats whats wrong.

8 inch liner i missed that why would he do that????

 

[Willhound]

The inlet for combustion air is on the "back wall" of the stove at the bottom. As it sits in my fireplace now - that opening is just above the ash clean out in the floor of the fireplace that leads through an opening in the brick chimney to the outside wall - where there is a steel door. The passage way is about two bricks high and a brick wide - roughly 2.5 feet long - I can reach my arm in from the outside and feel the back of the stove.
right now - it's pulling all it's combustion air through that passageway.

Hi Milner
Just a thought, but that sounds like a pretty big opening right into your house and around the firebox. I'm wondering if all that cold air is diluting the heat output. Yeah, I know, it's meant to be combustion air, but it's also an awful draught. You metioned that you had to stuff insulation between the double walls to block cold air, this should tell you something. I asked my installer about using outside air when we installed my Summit and his reply was " Why the heck would you want to bring cold air into the house? We knocked out the sideplate and I'm burning just fine tonight, keeping my 1600 sq.ft. house warm at -2F (and earlier this week at -42F).

Willhound

 

[RonB]

hh:


The room the stove is in is roughly 15 wide by 30 long with standard 8ft ceilings, the ceiling fan is blowing "down" to help circulate the warm air throughout the house.

The ceiling fan should be blowing "up" during winter heating months. This is helpful but not the major answer to your problem.

 

[milner351]

Well

the stove is working better with the insulation removed.... the fire is also burning more completely - the coals are burning down farther and we are getting less ash build up on the floor of the stove.

I am tempted to stuff the old ash cleanout leading outside with some insulation - and push open the inside air knock out just to see if that will make an appreciable difference.

I'm also wondering about what some folks are calling a "block off plate" I'm not sure what this is or if I should look into making one. Our fireplace had an old heatilator in it - so there's a good bit of ~1/8" steel above our stove that I could screw or rivit to with another piece of steel to seal off the firebox more completely -- is the idea of this to reflect more of the stoves heat into the room and allow less of it to "leak" around the outside of the liner and up the chimney?


We did clean the liner yesterday after work - and there was not much creosote build up - so, I'm more confident that I'm not burning too cold or burning bad wood.... but I have to be honest --- I'm still not happy with the heat output ---

I'm going to try the inside air and see how that works.

In more reading here I see I should also make the trim panels "loose" to allow more heat to escape from the stove???

Our previous stove had an 8" outlet - that is why we have an 8" stainless liner - I was NOT going to replace that liner, so I just have a 6 to 8 adaptor at the stove outlet.

 

[iceman]

Well

the stove is working better with the insulation removed.... the fire is also burning more completely - the coals are burning down farther and we are getting less ash build up on the floor of the stove.

I am tempted to stuff the old ash cleanout leading outside with some insulation - and push open the inside air knock out just to see if that will make an appreciable difference.

I'm also wondering about what some folks are calling a "block off plate" I'm not sure what this is or if I should look into making one. Our fireplace had an old heatilator in it - so there's a good bit of ~1/8" steel above our stove that I could screw or rivit to with another piece of steel to seal off the firebox more completely -- is the idea of this to reflect more of the stoves heat into the room and allow less of it to "leak" around the outside of the liner and up the chimney?


We did clean the liner yesterday after work - and there was not much creosote build up - so, I'm more confident that I'm not burning too cold or burning bad wood.... but I have to be honest --- I'm still not happy with the heat output ---

I'm going to try the inside air and see how that works.

In more reading here I see I should also make the trim panels "loose" to allow more heat to escape from the stove???

Our previous stove had an 8" outlet - that is why we have an 8" stainless liner - I was NOT going to replace that liner, so I just have a 6 to 8 adaptor at the stove outlet.

the stove works better with a 6 icnh liner but 8 will due i suppose
you have an exterior chimmney...you need block off plate your heat is going up the chim.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/11697/
check this out this was my install with block off plate and i am heating 2000+ sq ft with summit insert pm if you need to

 

[Hogwildz]

Put the block off plate in, your losing the heat up the chimney.
No wonder your not happy with the heat output, its not output at this point, its up and out the chimney put.
Some folks should really research what they are doing/getting.

 

[iceman]

Put the block off plate in, your losing the heat up the chimney.
No wonder your not happy with the heat output, its not output at this point, its up and out the chimney put.
Some folks should really research what they are doing/getting.

HOG, do you think the 8inch liner could have anything to do with it?

 

[Hogwildz]

Put the block off plate in, your losing the heat up the chimney.
No wonder your not happy with the heat output, its not output at this point, its up and out the chimney put.
Some folks should really research what they are doing/getting.

HOG, do you think the 8inch liner could have anything to do with it?

Honestly, I have never done a comparison and weighed the differences. Common sense would dictate that a larger pipe exhausts a larger volume. With that larger volume less heat is being kept in the fire box and more out to the environment. He claims draft is not an issue. But is that a certain? Testing and metering is the only sure tell all. For that matter, it might make a difference, it might not, might even be very minimal.
I don't have the equipment or numbers to say for sure. Larger pipe is less back pressure, which in theory is not holding as much pressure and heat in the firebox. Again in theory. I know no back less back pressure sucks on my hawg

 

[Jodi]

I have a PE Summit insert and have been struggling with poor heat output since it was installed in November 2007. I have a 6-inch full SS liner and a blockoff plate with ceramic fiber insulation above the plate. Origonally, I was using outside air, but determined that the insert was sucking in cool air into the plenum area and blowing cooler air (85-90 F) out the front. I plugged the outside air and removed the knocked out on the side and now the insert is blowing air out at a max of 115 F (better but still not good).

I can only get the insert to a maximum temp. of 540 F (taken above right corner of door). I have tried different wood (seasoned oak purchased and from friends, compress sawdust logs and kiln dry wood from the store). I can get a good fire, but poor heat output. I think my insert is overdrafting, but I have no good solution.

 

[milner351]

I appreciate your replies and I will continue to work with it, so far your suggestions are helping and the stove is working better.

Draft is absolutely not a problem.

I'm still trying to figure out a thermometer or heat gun to buy and where to mount it - what temperature are you guys measuring?
interior firebox? stove pipe at the outlet of the stove?
surface (magnet type thermometer) temp on the top of the stove?


I still want to try the inside combustion air idea - and / or run a pipe / duct from the bottom of the stove to the outside and pack the rest of the passage way
(old ash clean out, roughly 8"x8") with insulation to prevent all that cold air from cooling down the stove and the room.