Outside Air Kits for Ashford 30.1's

[bigealta]

Reminds me of my neighbor who was an actual Rocket scientist and then house inspector. Smart but also lacked some common sense at times.

One day, He was trying to nail his bilco door frame to a custom red brick foundation specifically built to hold that bilco door frame.
He was using an anchor (not a hilti gun) that was supposed to be ok for use with bricks. I was there listening to him cursing as he broke brick after brick. I was like dude those fasteners are not working. And he just kept saying they were designed to work with brick. I thought no way and clearly they were breaking every brick. But he just kept going breaking brick after brick.

The bilco door obviously did not get installed that day.
The mason had to come out and rebuild the brickwork.

I was trying to tell him to just drill that soft brick but he wouldn't listen. His engineer mind had to prove what the specs said about those fasteners.
It was a costly time consuming mistake that could have been easily avoided if he just stopped and realized the reality of his situation and chose the other much better and easier drilling time tested solution. Or even just adhesive caulking it in place.

This was a case of book smarts losing to common sense and experience smarts.

 

[stoveliker]

Regarding OAK diameter for BK 30 boxes I remember @DuaeGuttae discussing this.
I believe the standard is 4".
Not sure you'd get away with 3" pipe due to it being short. You'd need to calculate the impedance and compare.

 

[DuaeGuttae]

According to @BKVP, the four-inch adapter is for runs longer than ten to twelve feet; otherwise, three inch is the standard. With short runs directly from outside into your fireplaces, I would imagine that three inches would be the way to go.

I'm not sure about the Ashfor 30.1 boxes as mine is Sirocco 30.2, but the part number for the fresh air kit was listed in my stove manual. Mine has an S in front, but the number Z1726 seems to be common to the kits with or without a B depending on size as I found that listed for Princess kits. The kit contains a faceplate, a flexible duct pipe, and some sort of cover for where the duct comes in if I recall correctly. I'm not sure if faceplate is quite the right word, but that's the crucial element that allows the round duct to make a direct connection to the rectangular inlet on the back of the stove.

 

[weee123]

Years ago I worked in a precision concrete demolition. We used core drills daily. If anything ever made me pucker up it was the hydraulic wall saws. Those were just a little unnerving.

Not to get off topic, but hace you ever used the big rope saw cutters? They had to use them at the philly art museum to cut through the concrete foundations for holes for our duct, or other access. Some of the footings they had no idea how thick they were. Some as builts showed sections that were supposed to be 1’ but were 4’! Other spots were 6-8’ thick. Never seen anything like it.

 

[Ashful]

To bad you couldn't grab air from somewhere else. Even if you had to convert to round after.

I had debated whether it'd be worth a test by arranging temporary ductwork to the nearest window. But almost as quickly as the idea came into my head, I decided that it was a pointless test. We all know that in a sprawling house heated from just one room on the first floor, OAK is going to outperform no OAK, in terms of preventing the chill in far-off rooms due to the constant draw of make-up air through those spaces.

In terms of an alternate permanent path to outside, I don't see one other than side-by-side with the chimney liner to the top of the chimney. But that's not a great solution, in fact I think code might dictate a certain amount of vertical separation between OAK inlet and chimney outlet. Thru the back of the fireplace to outside is the best path.

Also, because I'd probably want a slight downward angle on the penetration, to keep rain and melting snow out, I'm re-thinking which direction I'd drill. From inside to out could be achieved without enormous trouble, and an arrangement of plastic sheeting, duct tape, cookie sheet and wet/dry vac could make it a relatively clean operation. Calculating the drilling location from outside to in, when we don't really know the exact wall thickness (it varies) and we're trying to pull location from a distant window on a house where nothing is really level, presents a lot of opportunities to have the penetration at the inside wall land somewhere we don't want it.

 

[30WCF]

Not to get off topic, but hace you ever used the big rope saw cutters? They had to use them at the philly art museum to cut through the concrete foundations for holes for our duct, or other access. Some of the footings they had no idea how thick they were. Some as builts showed sections that were supposed to be 1’ but were 4’! Other spots were 6-8’ thick. Never seen anything like it.

Never used one, but they can have some strange set ups too.

 

[30WCF]

Any chance you want to chip out the grout or mud from around the exterior and interior stone and save those stones, drill through the rest, and patch the void where you removed a stone from outside and inside? This would allow you to do a repair if you ever wanted to restore it with the original stone and color matched grout.

It may also reduce the distance to drill by a foot or so.

 

[Dieselhead]

In terms of an alternate permanent path to outside, I don't see one other than side-by-side with the chimney liner to the top of the chimney. But that's not a great solution, in fact I think code might dictate a certain amount of vertical separation between OAK inlet and chimney outlet. Thru the back of the fireplace to outside is the best path.

oak outside entrance should be lower than the stove floor as well from what I’ve read here. The chance of draft reversal through the oak is the concern.

 

[Highbeam]

I bought my princess with the factory OAK and it was3” pipe. Worked fine. I rebuilt the hearth and upgraded to 4” because that was the smallest standard size for 4” hvac ductwork and there is no penalty for oversizing the oak. Bk sent me a factory 4” oak plate for my stove. Seems that’s standard in Canada.

It does bolt into the stove and completely covers the only air intake so it’s as sealed as it can be. Unlike my nc30 that has several other holes to suck room air intake addition to the oak nipple.

 

[brenndatomu]

Wow, never seen one that deep!

So, I guess the big question is how small a hole I can get away with. If the total duct length between stove and outside is only 30" or 36" straight shot, do I need anywhere near as big as 4"?

What about 3"? 2-1/2"? 2"? I think I already have 2" and 2-1/2" bits long enough for this work. I probably would have to buy 3", and I'm sure I don't have 4".

More importantly than the bit cost, I would like to keep the hole thru this ancient stonework as small as possible. Someday, someone will surely be cursing me for making these holes at all, no matter how small they are or how many years that takes.

Do you own a core drill, or renting?
Our local tool rental place has bits from somewhere around an inch or slightly more, to 12"...and some pretty long ones too!
I rented a small one for a 2.5" hole and it was something like $85 for 4 hrs, with bit. Something around $100 for the day.
I always try to bury the core saw, then back it out and snap the core, if not through by then. Not too difficult on a deep 2-3", even 4" hole, but when they start getting closer to square on the measurements, ruh roh raggy!

 

[Ashful]

I own. Not my first rodeo! But my rig doesn't have the full mounted stand, etc. It's antique hand-held, requires some muscle to get it in place, and sometimes a spotter to help maintain direction and level. The motor + water line + extension + bit probably weighs 60 - 80 pounds, so getting it hoisted into place and started without the bit dancing across the surface of the wall is not a small task, if drilling position is at all awkward.

Since I've ever only lived in old stone or brick houses with 20" thick walls, I've never core-drilled anything as shallow as 4". It's almost always 20" deep or more, but more often comes out in sections along the mortar lines. These 20" - 24" walls I'll be drilling here probably have 8" facing stones each side, and then rubble or smaller stones with everything from mud to hair jammed in-between.

 

[30WCF]

I own. Not my first rodeo! But my rig doesn't have the full mounted stand, etc. It's antique hand-held, requires some muscle to get it in place, and sometimes a spotter to help maintain direction and level. The motor + water line + extension + bit probably weighs 60 - 80 pounds, so getting it hoisted into place and started without the bit dancing across the surface of the wall is not a small task, if drilling position is at all awkward.

Since I've ever only lived in old stone or brick houses with 20" thick walls, I've never core-drilled anything as shallow as 4". It's almost always 20" deep or more, but more often comes out in sections along the mortar lines. These 20" - 24" walls I'll be drilling here probably have 8" facing stones each side, and then rubble or smaller stones with everything from mud to hair jammed in-between.

You might do well to go to Lowe’s and get one of those cheap carbide Spyder bits of the correct size and put it in your battery drill to start an easier pilot to chase out. It might help with the walking.

 

[Duds13]

Cool. Thanks, 30WCF! I appreciate your experience, here.

I'm on my third pair of cats in these two stoves. I think these ones went in about a year ago, I need to dig thru old email to verify that, but they're not very old. Since we're heating with these stoves, not just burning for fun, I make sure they're in good working order. No issues that would indicate they're anywhere near end of life, I usually get more like 4-5 seasons out of a cat on my all-hardwood diet.

As to liner, I was thinking more along the lines of stainless ductwork than schedule 40! The way stone naturally bridges, I really don't anticipate any appreciable force on whatever sleeve goes into that bore. When I talk about the hole "caving in", it's just because there's loose material inside the walls, I really don't think there's any force other than gravity on a few loose bits of rock immediately above the bore, acting on this liner.

Other holes I've bored thru stone walls, and even when removing window or door lintels, nothing more than the few small rocks or mortar bits immediately above ever fell out. Stone tends to form its own natural arch when the thing below is removed, and in my case, the thing below is my 4" hole, both small and already arched!

I just hunted and found an old photo, which I marked up for the OAK locations. We've expanded a bit since this was taken, but you can see the stone work here. Click thumbnails.

View attachment 335092 View attachment 335093

Beautiful home you have! Is that an outdoor fireplace / pizza oven perhaps?

 

[Ashful]

You might do well to go to Lowe’s and get one of those cheap carbide Spyder bits of the correct size and put it in your battery drill to start an easier pilot to chase out. It might help with the walking.

In the past, when location was critical (e.g. sch.40 plumbing pass-thru's), I've been able to nail the location by first drilling a circular series of small holes with a 1/4" or 5/16" carbide masonry bit in my hammer drill, matching the diameter of the coring bit. Then I quick chase that series of holes into a groove with my air hammer, or even hand chisel, so I have a nice groove in which to set the coring bit to start.

In this case, I'm not sure location is even that critical. When I mention bit walk, it's usually less than an inch even without the prep work. If I drill from inside to out, an inch one way or t'other ain't gonna even matter!

 

[Ashful]

Beautiful home you have! Is that an outdoor fireplace / pizza oven perhaps?

Thanks! The outdoor fireplace is ambience only. It actually has a gas log in it, the prior owner's configuration, although I've since rebuilt or replaced all of that. I did consider switching it over to wood, I have plenty of "garbage wood" split and stacked to the side that's of no heating value, but the gas is more convenient for my wife or kids to just turn on/off when sitting by the pool.

That old photo doesn't show it, but we added an additional level of patio beyond what's shown there, with an 18' x 33' pool and more gardens. It looks much nicer now, I guess I could try to hunt my phone for a photo if anyone is interested, but the older photo I posted was the quickest one I found for showing the OAK locations.

 

[Duds13]

Thanks! The outdoor fireplace is ambience only. It actually has a gas log in it, the prior owner's configuration, although I've since rebuilt or replaced all of that. I did consider switching it over to wood, I have plenty of "garbage wood" split and stacked to the side that's of no heating value, but the gas is more convenient for my wife or kids to just turn on/off when sitting by the pool.

That old photo doesn't show it, but we added an additional level of patio beyond what's shown there, with an 18' x 33' pool and more gardens. It looks much nicer now, I guess I could try to hunt my phone for a photo if anyone is interested, but the older photo I posted was the quickest one I found for showing the OAK locations.

I bet that's beautiful. I'd love to see a photo if you are able to track one down

 

[30WCF]

In the past, when location was critical (e.g. sch.40 plumbing pass-thru's), I've been able to nail the location by first drilling a circular series of small holes with a 1/4" or 5/16" carbide masonry bit in my hammer drill, matching the diameter of the coring bit. Then I quick chase that series of holes into a groove with my air hammer, or even hand chisel, so I have a nice groove in which to set the coring bit to start.

In this case, I'm not sure location is even that critical. When I mention bit walk, it's usually less than an inch even without the prep work. If I drill from inside to out, an inch one way or t'other ain't gonna even matter!

Cool.
You can also bore a same diameter hole on a small piece of plywood and have someone hold it in place as a guide while you get the bit started. Sounds like you got it whooped though. 👍

 

[xshmoox]

I hate to say it, but, I think it’s time for the outdoor boiler. lol

 

[Ashful]

I bet that's beautiful. I'd love to see a photo if you are able to track one down

Hah... questions like this always make me realize how badly I focus on "what's wrong", and never take time to enjoy the finished product. I have hundreds, maybe thousands of photos of every wiring problem, excavation problem, electrical problem, plumbing problem... you name it. But almost nothing ever of the finished product of any project.

Here's two I was able to scare up, both taken early spring while I was pressure-washing, before the new landscaping really grew in.

I hate to say it, but, I think it’s time for the outdoor boiler. lol

You're not wrong, if efficient heating were really my sole goal. But I've said many times already, there's no way I'm doing this much work to hide a fire in the basement, where I can't enjoy it! Sitting near a woodstove is the pay-off, for all those hours spent on harvesting, splitting, and moving firewood.

 

[Duds13]

Hah... questions like this always make me realize how badly I focus on "what's wrong", and never take time to enjoy the finished product. I have hundreds, maybe thousands of photos of every wiring problem, excavation problem, electrical problem, plumbing problem... you name it. But almost nothing ever of the finished product of any project.

Here's two I was able to scare up, both taken early spring while I was pressure-washing, before the new landscaping really grew in.

View attachment 335161 View attachment 335162


You're not wrong, if efficient heating were really my sole goal. But I've said many times already, there's no way I'm doing this much work to hide a fire in the basement, where I can't enjoy it! Sitting near a woodstove is the pay-off, for all those hours spent on harvesting, splitting, and moving firewood.

Beautiful property, really stunning. I love the slate patio area before the steps. My little hometown in NY is known as the "colored slate capital of the world." It also is the only place to have working red slate quarries!

 

[xshmoox]

You're not wrong, if efficient heating were really my sole goal. But I've said many times already, there's no way I'm doing this much work to hide a fire in the basement, where I can't enjoy it! Sitting near a woodstove is the pay-off, for all those hours spent on harvesting, splitting, and moving firewood.

Good point I was thinking more of an outside unit to save you even more time of not dragging 5 loads of wood inside every day

 

[stoveliker]

Hah... questions like this always make me realize how badly I focus on "what's wrong", and never take time to enjoy the finished product. I have hundreds, maybe thousands of photos of every wiring problem, excavation problem, electrical problem, plumbing problem... you name it. But almost nothing ever of the finished product of any project.

Get your engineering hat on: what can you neglect (aka put it in the safety margins) while having a product that satisfies the requirements.

Engineering is (to me) for a large part about determining what is necessary and thus needs to know precisely, and what one doesn't need to know precisely. The latter can be put into margins and forgotten about while having some pride in the former as it delivered on the goals and did so with rigor and utility.

The perfect is the enemy of the good.

 

[Ashful]

The perfect is the enemy of the good.

One of the best phrases ever uttered, and my constant personal battle. I manage the problem with alcohol.

 

[stoveliker]

Alcohol makes most things a solution

 

[all night moe]

I normally run dry during much of the winter. Most winters anyways.
Now I have a hankering for a Grolsch. 🤪