Outdoor Reset

[Sparky]

Well I couldn't pull it off this weekend. (Family over) Got the valve and the return line all cut in on Thursday filled it with water soldered on Friday
Thought I was good.... Not I snuck down Saturday am to purge the line of air (I used the hot water from tank instead of building a fire)
Thankfully because I was almost complete and had a pin leak water spraying everywhere.
I drained the system and where I had to solder the leak drip for 10 hours no matter what I did it wouldn't stop. Needless to say as of Saturday night all fixed, purged and a fire burning
Monday after work I'll install rest of the components (pretty much plug and play)
With a few adjustments I should had ODR up and running thanks for everyone's help


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[TCaldwell]

You'll like the results!

 

[JohnDolz]

Well I couldn't pull it off this weekend. (Family over) Got the valve and the return line all cut in on Thursday filled it with water soldered on Friday
Thought I was good.... Not I snuck down Saturday am to purge the line of air (I used the hot water from tank instead of building a fire)
Thankfully because I was almost complete and had a pin leak water spraying everywhere.
I drained the system and where I had to solder the leak drip for 10 hours no matter what I did it wouldn't stop. Needless to say as of Saturday night all fixed, purged and a fire burning
Monday after work I'll install rest of the components (pretty much plug and play)
With a few adjustments I should had ODR up and running thanks for everyone's help


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Nice congrats. In fact Tom just finished putting the final modification (at least for this year) o my system. I believe we both now have a masters degree in the use of electric zone valves within a thermal storage system!

 

[Sparky]

Well ODR is up and running the problem is my house is too warm from the sun and temperatures outside. So we will let it run thru the night and adjust tomorrow


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[Dutchie84]

How's it working now??

 

[Sparky]

Not good I tapped into return line on wood boiler not on my house return loop so when my house was satisfied it kept pumping 130 deg water and I woke up at 2 am and it was 78 degrees in my house. I had to open windows to sleep so I will fix it and keep you posted thx


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[Sparky]

Well ODR is back online
We will see how this works


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[velvetfoot]

Good luck!

 

[JohnDolz]

Well ODR is back online
We will see how this works


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How's it working out? These wild temperature swings make it tricky to figure out the right points.

 

[Sparky]

We will definitely know this weekend. It has been right on so far so I suspect these next few cold days it will be ok
Today I ran my tank down to 130 never had temps that low house was nice and warm gotta love it


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[JohnDolz]

We will definitely know this weekend. It has been right on so far so I suspect these next few cold days it will be ok
Today I ran my tank down to 130 never had temps that low house was nice and warm gotta love it


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Nice. I run my tanks below 120 sometimes. Depending on outside temps I end up throwing some extra wood in at some point to get me back up to the 180's/190's but it reduces the total # of fires I have to start (plus the greater efficiency reduces that even more). As I mentioned with my boiler I get to select a preprogrammed "curve" which controls the flow water temp based on outdoor temp. Last time we had a real winter I remember changing my curve when we moved from fall/winter to true winter and then again as we moved into spring/winter. Basically real winter needed a curve that produced slightly hotter water (I only changed the curve by 2 or 3 degrees). With the last 2 winters of crazy temp swings I have not even bothered, sometimes the house would get stuck at 68 for a few hours but then the sun would pop out or something would get me back to toasty 72.

 

[TCaldwell]

Wait till the shoulder seasons, storage will last longer than you think

 

[maple1]

I think you can run your storage down as low without ODR as with. As long as your circs don't get cut off by a low temp setting in your controls, they should just keep circulating water as long as there is a call for heat - when temps bottom out, they will be circulating constantly at the same supply temp as the ODR would supply. The need for more heat should arise at the same storage temps. I don't have ODR and routinely run my storage down as low as possible - yesterday it was 120.

 

[JohnDolz]

I think you can run your storage down as low without ODR as with. As long as your circs don't get cut off by a low temp setting in your controls, they should just keep circulating water as long as there is a call for heat - when temps bottom out, they will be circulating constantly at the same supply temp as the ODR would supply. The need for more heat should arise at the same storage temps. I don't have ODR and routinely run my storage down as low as possible - yesterday it was 120.

Keep in mind that I am a sales guy and not an engineer so I can tell you what I observe and think with no science behind it. What you say is correct but I believe the difference is that when you use ODR you can run for hours once your tank starts getting south of 150. When I did this without ODR I found that tank temp would "collapse" quickly and that my house would start getting cold. I believe the reason is that when set up with ODR (or more correctly to use constant circulation vs. the on/off) the house is never allowed to get cold (circulator turning off and then trying to recover). Basically using ODR and constant flow allows the system to "sip" at storage and SLOWLY house temp will drift down as design temp can no longer be fully reached. These are my observations running both ways in exactly the same system - like I said I have n science behind it but it is what I hve experienced. This allows me not be be sitting waiting for my tank to reach 150 so I can start another fire, I know I have several hours (maybe more, maybe less depending on outside temp) cushion before I need to start a fire. This is especially helpful when I travel, it allows my wife much bigger window to start a fire.

 

[Sparky]

All I know is before ODR I couldn't of satisfied my t-stat with a tank at 150 degrees. But now I can go to 130 and it works. I guess you could do it without ODR but it is the constant flow and the temps would be too high if your tank was at 180? It would satisfy the t-stat and you would be playing catch up? At least that's how I understand it. That constant flow of low temp water really has an effect on the load of your house. In a good way

 

[JohnDolz]

All I know is before ODR I couldn't of satisfied my t-stat with a tank at 150 degrees. But now I can go to 130 and it works. I guess you could do it without ODR but it is the constant flow and the temps would be too high if your tank was at 180? It would satisfy the t-stat and you would be playing catch up? At least that's how I understand it. That constant flow of low temp water really has an effect on the load of your house. In a good way

I would agree but I am just a sales guy. For full disclosure I think I get $1 every time someone converts to using ODR. Glad it is working well for you.

 

[Sparky]

You are doing great you should be able to retire soon!


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[maple1]

All I know is before ODR I couldn't of satisfied my t-stat with a tank at 150 degrees. But now I can go to 130 and it works. I guess you could do it without ODR but it is the constant flow and the temps would be too high if your tank was at 180? It would satisfy the t-stat and you would be playing catch up? At least that's how I understand it. That constant flow of low temp water really has an effect on the load of your house. In a good way

Without ODR, with hotter water than needed, the circs just start & stop as demand is needed & met (think that's what is 'typical' of a traditional setup). Then as supply/storage temps drop, the circs run longer to meet the demand. That will get to a point where they would be running constantly to maintain house temp - then once supply/storage temps drop beyond a certain point, the house will lose temp even with circs running constant. That particular point, IMO, would be the same whether using ODR or not. ODR can't get more heat out of the same temp water - it just keeps a lower even supply temp all the time that will maintain house temp with constant flow. That is assuming that your circs will keep running as supply temps drop to what is still useful - and your emitters are capable of pulling the necessary heat out of the water & delivering to the house (which should be an 'all things equal' thing, as this is talking about supply temps & not involving any changes to emitters). If you are talking about some prior recovery situations, and maybe eliminating them, that might also be a factor since higher temps are usually needed for much recovery capability. But eliminating recovery situations by keeping your thermostats set constant would also eliminate recovery situations.

 

[JohnDolz]

Without ODR, with hotter water than needed, the circs just start & stop as demand is needed & met (think that's what is 'typical' of a traditional setup). Then as supply/storage temps drop, the circs run longer to meet the demand. That will get to a point where they would be running constantly to maintain house temp - then once supply/storage temps drop beyond a certain point, the house will lose temp even with circs running constant. That particular point, IMO, would be the same whether using ODR or not. ODR can't get more heat out of the same temp water - it just keeps a lower even supply temp all the time that will maintain house temp with constant flow. That is assuming that your circs will keep running as supply temps drop to what is still useful - and your emitters are capable of pulling the necessary heat out of the water & delivering to the house (which should be an 'all things equal' thing, as this is talking about supply temps & not involving any changes to emitters). If you are talking about some prior recovery situations, and maybe eliminating them, that might also be a factor since higher temps are usually needed for much recovery capability. But eliminating recovery situations by keeping your thermostats set constant would also eliminate recovery situations.

You are correct but 2 points to consider: 1. When you have T-stats kicking on and off you are always dealing with recovery. As the water temp gets lower, the time the circs run will be longer but they will then shut off, temp will drop and then the need to recover. Regarding ODR getting more heat out of the same temp water, true but it can get better use out of the total # of BTU's stored. I use the analogy of a full tank of gas. It contains a certain amount of energy but the way you drive the car will impact the gas mileage that you get. Like I said I am not sure of all the math behind it but since I never drop into "Recovery mode" (other than at night - different conversation") I never feel drops in temp. Worst case is that my house VERY slowly and steady will cool of as the water flowing is slowly and consistently cooling. For example today, I have gotten buried in work and forgot about storage temp (started a fire late yesterday afternoon), it is now 20 degrees outside (was 10 at 6:00 AM. Design temp is 128, tank is at 130 but flow is actually at 125 - my house remains at 72. I could probably run this way for a few more hours as indoor temps very slowly drift down. When I ran with high temp water the t-stats would let the temp drop a bit and when the flow temp is low recovering becomes impossible. Regarding an emitters ability to extract heat, I have standard baseboard and put some aftermarket covers on them for esthetics - my plumber swears I lose at least 30% of the baseboards potential. In the shoulder seasons I see flow temp of 95 - 105 and my house still stays at 72.

 

[TCaldwell]

Maple, you are correct, by eliminating the thermostat/zone cycling you are able to save a little heat in the tank at the end of the day, Tekmar has the numbers on that.
We have had two weekends in a row for me that have not broken the single f degrees, and the wind chill at 15-22 below at night right now it's17 with a wc of 4 degf, I'm heating my house to 73deg with 129 deg water at a steady rate of 28kbtu/hr, 6 of my 8 alphas are running 20 watts or less.
Another observation, garn tank is at 173, outdoor mix temp is 129, my taco 007 is running at 35.7 pct output that's about 2.5 gpm to transfer 28kbtu/hr between the flat plate in garn barn to my supply header in the basement, approx 250 ft of piping.
Before, it took a 0014, at 9 gpm, sized for the worst day with higher flows to the zones to satisfy the thermostats a couple times per hr.
This depicts two extremes but you get the idea.
Overall I think it's a smoother operation, c'mon maple drink the koolaid !

 

[Sparky]

I was going to respond but johndoltz couldn't have said it better. It works all I can say. I didn't change any radiation or didn't touch my radiant heat setting going this route is much easier on my storage


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[JohnDolz]

Maple, you are correct, by eliminating the thermostat/zone cycling you are able to save a little heat in the tank at the end of the day, Tekmar has the numbers on that.
We have had two weekends in a row for me that have not broken the single f degrees, and the wind chill at 15-22 below at night right now it's17 with a wc of 4 degf, I'm heating my house to 73deg with 129 deg water at a steady rate of 28kbtu/hr, 6 of my 8 alphas are running 20 watts or less.
Another observation, garn tank is at 173, outdoor mix temp is 129, my taco 007 is running at 35.7 pct output that's about 2.5 gpm to transfer 28kbtu/hr between the flat plate in garn barn to my supply header in the basement, approx 250 ft of piping.
Before, it took a 0014, at 9 gpm, sized for the worst day with higher flows to the zones to satisfy the thermostats a couple times per hr.
This depicts two extremes but you get the idea.
Overall I think it's a smoother operation, c'mon maple drink the koolaid !

I knew someone would have the math! My parting comment as I need to pack to take my boys skiing is that I read somewhere that heating with low temperature water results in less (or maybe it was slower) heat rise which made it warmer down where we tend to spend most of our time resulting in less energy consumption. Can't swear to that one as I tend to stay closer to the floor than the ceiling.

 

[velvetfoot]

I guess it's all about comfort. I have my thermostats at .5 deg, which is not constant, like you constant flow guys, but it helps. There are still slugs of cooled water in the emitter loop which have to be purged on every cycle with their time lags, and, in my case, the creaking during each heat-up. Varying the temperature (and flow?) of the circulating fluid to maintain a constant house temperature would seem to be the thing to aim for, and why would you need to know the outside temperature for that?

 

[JohnDolz]

I guess it's all about comfort. I have my thermostats at .5 deg, which is not constant, like you constant flow guys, but it helps. There are still slugs of cooled water in the emitter loop which have to be purged on every cycle with their time lags, and, in my case, the creaking during each heat-up. Varying the temperature (and flow?) of the circulating fluid to maintain a constant house temperature would seem to be the thing to aim for, and why would you need to know the outside temperature for that?

If you are using some kind of mixing device to control the temperature of the circulating fluid, knowing the outside temperature allows the controller to set the ideal temperature of the circulating fluid to have you house reach the desired temperature. The goal is to use the flow temperature to get your room t the desired temp not the t-stat. Below are examples of the curve which determines my flow temperature. I get to choose the curve (move it up or down) and adjust it (I can move the right hand end point out while leaving the left hand end point in place.

 

[velvetfoot]

Or....use a mixing valve or similar to vary the coolant temperature based on indoor temperature: keep it constant...indoor temperature stabilizes with mix percentage at some point so that heat input = heat loss at the setpoint. Setpoint changes, mix percentage and coolant temperature changes until it reaches some steady state at the new setpoint. Would be better for setback recovery, plus you still have that constantly running pump you like.

I think maybe the attraction of ODR is for fossil fuel boilers to minimize losses, ie to run it at a lower temperature. With a tank, what you have is what you have-it has a certain amount of BTU's in it at any one point in time. You can use it in different ways for different emitters at the same time, as in fast setback recovery in baseboard, and maybe not so great a delta for radiant.

I wouldn't know where to buy this stuff though...I just dreamed it up, lol