Osburn 1600 insert not pumping out much heat

[Grisu]

· I don't have a block-off plate

Get one or at least stuff some Roxul (Lowe's or HomeDepot) in there. See also here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/poor-mans-block-off-plate-ii.73018/

· I do not have a thermometer to test the temperature.

Again, get one. It will really be helpful to determine whether you burn efficiently or not.

· I do not have a hydrometer to test the moisture of wood.

Probably not your main problem since pallet and lumber wood did not solve your issues but will help a lot with the wood bought from your dealer(s). This one is cheap and does the job:
http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-mini-moisture-meter-67143.html Be also advised that you rarely can buy seasoned wood with a moisture content of less than 20% (although the wood from your last supplier may have been ok). Most people here get their wood (either bought or scrounged themselves) split and stacked at least 2 years before they need it. Only then it will be seasoned. Single rows on pallets or some other support in full sun and exposed to lots of wind are best. I like to cover the top, too.

Once I get a roaring fire going, I wait several minutes and then leave the insert’s door open about 3 inches. If I don’t, it will become a weak fire, even with the air supply full open, ½ open, or almost closed.

I think that's it. You are running your insert as a fireplace which will suck most/all of the heat up the chimney. It could be that you have a general problem with draft but since you have a pretty long chimney with liner and not really airtight house I have the feeling your air supply is blocked. I would call SBI/Osburn or PM the user Fyrebug try to find out where your air intake is and check whether that is blocked. You will probably need to pull out the insert for that. You will also need to check the air channel in the stove. Maybe ash fell in during a cleaning and blocked it. In any case, when you have a good fire going and close the door the fire should not die down. In my case the draft is so good that the airwash works like a bellow further fanning the fire.

P.S. If we can solve your problem and you really want to part with $50 then I would suggest donating them to your local foodshelf or humane society. I am sure they will appreciate it.

 

[FyreBug]

Sorry late to the party, am on vacation with limited connectivity right now.

I think BeGreen is right. There's 2 variables that have changed 1) liner connection which may have changed your drafting parameters 2) modification to the unit. Ever since then you are not getting the results you would line.

If you are not getting good secondaries, it may be an indication your modifications are affecting the burn. As BeGreen suggested try to bring the unit back to its original design. If you go to (broken link removed to http://www.osburn-mfg.com/en/service-support/search) and look your model based on its serial number you should be able to find the correct parts. If not email [email protected] and we'll be able to help you.

Gotta go batteries are dying...

 

[clemsonfor]

Several things like other mentioned. I have a similar problem at my farm house. Little heat.

i know my problem is less than optimal wood, a not optimal draft from a shorter chimney, and i dont have a block off plate just insulation under the top plate at the top of the chimney up high . I loose a lot of heat to the chimney brick, i have a freestander set in a fireplace. Much heat comes off the top of it and it going right up the chimey and sinking into the brick. My less than optimal wood does not burn hot and always does not fire the secondaries so i am not getting the best combustion.

I think you have one or a combination of my problems, all of which the guys have already mentioned to you. GOOD wood that you know how long its been split and stacked are very valuable to this eauation. NO or NOT to many "wood dealers" have the space to let split wood sit stacked for 2-3 years let alone one year. THe would have to have acres adn acres of stacks of wood and there would be a lot of labor involved. I bet your wood your burning was not split more than 6 months prior and has sat in a giant pile before you bought it.

 

[begreen]

Besides getting the stove back to original condition I would recheck the liner connection and elbow to make sure that there are no leaks. And last, check the flue cap screen to make sure it isn't plugged.

 

[Heat_Challenged]

You guys are all so absolutely amazing; I've taken so many notes from your posts. It's like a Woodstove 101 class.

I'm stoked! Pardon the pun

I am going to:

• buy a stove thermometer: Any brands/models you recommend?
• buy a moisture meter: Any brands/models you recommend?
• buy the manufacturer's fire bricks
• buy the manufacturer's baffles
• buy the manufacturer's baffle weight
• buy a thermodisc kit: I think this one might be good: (broken link removed to http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Blower-Thermodisc-Kit-Quick-Connect)
• put insulation over the baffles: do you recommend Kaowool or Roxul/Roxell?
• check my liner's top plate to make sure it's sealed
• check the liner connection and elbow to make sure that there are no leaks
• check the air ports and channels into the stove are not blocked (as soon as I find out where they are...)
• stuff insulation in the nooks and crannies of the chimney as far up as I can reach: Do you recommend Roxul/Roxell?
• make and install a block-off plate
• put insulation over the block-off plate: Do you recommend Roxul/Roxell?
• If I need it and can afford it, I'll get liner insulation.

Thanks so much--it's nice to know I have a good chance at fixing this problem and saving money on wood and oil while giving my family a cosy house for the winter.

I'll upload photos as I progress.

cheers!

 

[Heat_Challenged]

Besides getting the stove back to original condition I would recheck the liner connection and elbow to make sure that there are no leaks. And last, check the flue cap screen to make sure it isn't plugged.

Good idea, I'll add that to my list

thx

 

[Heat_Challenged]

Hi everyone,

Please see the photos below that I've uploaded.

As I want to put in a block-off plate, I had to remove the insert. Whew. I was finally able to disconnect the liner elbow from my stove. The rigid elbow and the liner's position made it near impossible. I had to lift the front end of the stove up and slide it out. What do you think about replacing the rigid elbow with 2 feet of flexi-liner?

As you can see in the photos (especially the last one!), there is a ton of space around and above the insert. That must be acting as a huge heat sink . I have to get some brickwork done so there is something I can actually attach the block-off plate to. Since the WETT-certified mason would already be here putting in some bricks to attach the block-off plate, do you think I should get him to make the fireplace chamber smaller before I put the block-off plate on? Would that help keep some heat in? What about a heat reflector (sheet metal) behind the insert?

Also, as you can see by the elbow in the photo, the woodstove opening is larger than the liner. The woodstove's opening is 6 inches. The liner is 5 inches. Do you think the difference of the narrower liner would be affecting the draft/how much heat goes into my room?

Here is a summary of my questions:
1. What do you think about replacing the rigid elbow with 2 feet of flexi-liner to make the installation/removal easier?
2. Should I get the mason to make the fireplace chamber smaller before I put the block-off plate on? Would that keep the heat in?
3. What about a heat reflector (sheet metal) behind the insert?
4. Do you think the difference of the narrower liner would be affecting the draft/how much heat goes into my room?

thanks in advance for your thoughts!

 

[begreen]

It would be helpful to understand what we are looking at up the chimney. Liner is supposed to be stainless, but there appears to be rusting on the lower section. Is it all stainless or are there still steel pieces here? Why did they use 5"?

I'm thinking your issue is insufficient draft. The 5" liner is only 22ft judging by the pictures. That is not enough height to downsize from the required 6". If there is a neutral or slightly negative basement pressure (pretty common) this stove is never going to perform well with this setup. It wants 6" for 22' and may need an outside air connection if there is competition for combustion air in the basement.

A block off plate is still a good idea and will help, but it's not the root cause of the poor performance.

 

[clemsonfor]

U can just stuff roxul up there. But if u want get a sheet metal plate. No don't get more bricks put in to make it smaller. The back of the insert will not be that hot anyway as it a double or triple wall with air circulation and that heated. Air is what blows out as heat.

And I do agree that small liner I think is your problem. Get a 6" SS liner your draft will be better.

 

[Heat_Challenged]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply begreen,

The liner and wood stove insert were already installed when I bought the house, so I don't know why the liner is 5". The idea of having to plop down $1,200 for a new liner scares the hell out of me...

As for the appearance of rust on the liner, I don't think it actually is rust. When I handle it, no rust goes on my hands. I think it might be from the heat/flames from the years of the woodstove being used but the elbow not connected because the elbow had rusted through. Just my 2 cents and I'm absolutely new to this, of course. Did companies use non stainless steel liners 10-15 years ago?

I am glad you think the block-off plate would help as that's a heck of a lot cheaper. I'll go that route first.

thanks again.

It would be helpful to understand what we are looking at up the chimney. Liner is supposed to be stainless, but there appears to be rusting on the lower section. Is it all stainless or are there still steel pieces here? Why did they use 5"?

I'm thinking your issue is insufficient draft. The 5" liner is only 22ft judging by the pictures. That is not enough height to downsize from the required 6". If there is a neutral or slightly negative basement pressure (pretty common) this stove is never going to perform well with this setup. It wants 6" for 22' and may need an outside air connection if there is competition for combustion air in the basement.

A block off plate is still a good idea and will help, but it's not the root cause of the poor performance.

 

[Heat_Challenged]

Hi clemsonfor,

Would you recommend roxul on top of the block-off plate?


cheers

U can just stuff roxul up there. But if u want get a sheet metal plate. No don't get more bricks put in to make it smaller. The back of the insert will not be that hot anyway as it a double or triple wall with air circulation and that heated. Air is what blows out as heat.

And I do agree that small liner I think is your problem. Get a 6" SS liner your draft will be better.

 

[begreen]

No, I would replace the liner. 5" is too small for this stove. If you don't have sufficient draft it can't support good secondary combustion. You want a solution, well this is where to start. Otherwise you are trying to control the cold by putting window trim on an open window.

 

[Grisu]

The idea of having to plop down $1,200 for a new liner scares the hell out of me...

Who quoted you that? If you are willing to do it yourself, you can get a liner plus insulation for ~$600.
http://www.chimneylinerdepot.com/store/975/product/Flex-King-PRO-Chimney-Liner-6X25-Insert-Kit.html
And I agree, that will be a must if you want to get any meaningful heat from that stove.

In addition, no to the bricks around the insert. They will actually cost you more in heat. Put Roxul around the insert as in the thread I linked to earlier.

 

[begreen]

First we need to understand why they used 5" liner. It could be because of a clearance issue. If not, and it was just being cheap, get it out and do it right.

 

[Heat_Challenged]

First we need to understand why they used 5" liner. It could be because of a clearance issue. If not, and it was just being cheap, get it out and do it right.

Hi,
I spoke with a premiere woodstove sales and installation company here. They are not the company that installed my woodstove or liner. They said they have always used 5" liners and there should be no problem with a 5" liner, 6" wood stove elbow, and a reducer.
They said I should have a bat of fire-resistant insulation (roxul) about 2' above the woodstove. They said that is code. Mine didn't. They said that would definitely be a contributing factor to my loss of heat, cold liner, and bad draft.
See photos---I have stuffed 8 bats of roxul as far up as I could get it---I pushed the bats up with a broom, so there are 8 bats totally stuffed around the liner to about 4' above the liner. I then put some more behind the bricks. I will put up the remaining bricks tonight. Then, I will put one bat on the inside of the firebox I have rebuilt, so that it encases the woodstove insert on the sides and back.I will then put the insulated (roxul) block-off plate in.
If that doesn't do it, then I either need a 6" liner or an exorcist.
cheers

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

Gl.....please keep us posted...

 

[begreen]

If they are installing 5" liners in all their chimneys they are taking shortcuts at the expense of their customers and violating the mfg. instructions with inserts requiring 6" liners. A smaller liner makes sense in an exceptionally tall chimney, but that is >30 ft. tall. In a marginally high one story chimney this would be a big mistake. Many stove manuals explicitly state to never downsize the flue. Osburn is a bit more lenient. Here's what the 1600i manual says:

A continuous 6" (152mm) stainless steel liner from the top of the chimney to the insert’s smoke
exhaust (see Figure 2.2) is the optimum system and will provide the best performance, as well as
compensate for poor draft situations caused by large cross-sectional chimneys.

FWIW, I have not heard of any code requiring a batt of Roxul above the stove in a continuous liner system. That said, it's a good idea and what you did should help keep the heat at the stove.

 

[blades]

More than likely the 5" liner was used because the 6" would not fit with out knocking the clay flue liner out. Pretty common occurrence. Interesting that just burning dimension lumber from the store didn't seem to create much more heat. A stove with a pretty good load of just that normally would go ballistic regardless of the position of the loading door, but at the same time you had fire bricks in place of the proper baffle likely severely restricting the draft. Fine line on increasing the thickness of the baffle vs draft. Moisture meter well I have a cheapie from Harbor Freight works fine same with the infrared temp gun ( its around $50 US) also works fine. A 22ft. flue even at 5" should not be a problem draft wise (once it is warm) but supply air could be. Now I am not familar with the Oz unit but it could be possible that the air control arm ( maybe not the right term hope it makes sense) has become disconnected from moving it around and or possibly a corrosion problem causing the same scenario considering the condition of the original elbow leaving the air intake baffle in a closed position restricting the air intake to the unit ( I am thinking this due to you burning pallets and dimension lumber and not have the stove go nuclear as well as the statement of a weak fire when door is closed). Back to the flue: could be blocked by a critter nest/critter or if a screen at the top as was suggested, could be plugged up( also very common if the fuel supply is less than adequately seasoned (dried). One more thought,could be possible that somewhere along the line the liner has collapsed possibly from corrosion again. Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble been a long day .

 

[Heat_Challenged]

If they are installing 5" liners in all their chimneys they are taking shortcuts at the expense of their customers and violating the mfg. instructions with inserts requiring 6" liners. A smaller liner makes sense in an exceptionally tall chimney, but that is >30 ft. tall. In a marginally high one story chimney this would be a big mistake. Many stove manuals explicitly state to never downsize the flue. Osburn is a bit more lenient. Here's what the 1600i manual says:

A continuous 6" (152mm) stainless steel liner from the top of the chimney to the insert’s smoke
exhaust (see Figure 2.2) is the optimum system and will provide the best performance, as well as
compensate for poor draft situations caused by large cross-sectional chimneys.

FWIW, I have not heard of any code requiring a batt of Roxul above the stove in a continuous liner system. That said, it's a good idea and what you did should help keep the heat at the stove.

.........
Hi,
I got sheet metal cut to the dimensions I need for the blockoff plate I am going to install (with Roxul on the top).
It is galvanized sheet metal (24 gauge).
How high above the insert should the block off plate be? I am worried about the galvanized sheet metal getting too hot and emitting fumes.
cheers

 

[begreen]

No worries mate. It will not get nearly hot enough for that to be aproblem.

 

[Heat_Challenged]

No worries mate. It will not get nearly hot enough for that to be aproblem.

That's great to hear; I worried about 'death by bad DIY blockoff plate.'
Here are some photos of the finished brickwork and insulation (roxul). You can also see the blockoff plate I have made. The next step is for me to:
1. cut out the 6" hole in the blockoff plate and batt of roxul insulation
2. put the elbow through the blockoff plate and insulation
3. drill some holes into the blockoff plate and bricks
cheers

 

[Heat_Challenged]

No worries mate. It will not get nearly hot enough for that to be aproblem.

I finally got the blockoff plate to fit. Now I have to cut a hole in the roxul to put over the blockoff plate.

cheers

 

[bag of hammers]

If there isn't a huge gap/opening up there you would all be dead long ago with that elbow not being connected to the liner.

Amen BB. My gut feeling is that the previous owners maybe never really got a good fire in that unit, not that it's a bad stove, but when the flue was tight it was a less than optimal setup. Then HC moved in, coincidentally the flue collar rots out at the same time, and the stove exhausts "easily" thru the hole(s) at the top plate of the chimney. Great burn. And a happy but unlikely coincidence that these problems actually cancelled each other out.

House was purchased in in 2009, stove burned in 2009 and again in 2010, called in chimney sweep in 2011 for cleaning and caught the serious issues almost by accident. As the king of stupid human tricks, I really hate to be preachy - especially about something that really isn't even stupid (more like misplaced trust, perhaps) - but I will for just a second.

For anyone (new home buyer) reading this - you just bought a place with a wood burning appliance? Excellent. Get a qualified sweep in to go over it top to bottom before you consider lighting it for the first time. The Heat Challenged family is ok today ironically due to multiple leaks in the system counteracting each other. They will continue to be ok due to HC's new-found skills and diligence (and obvious care). But they were unknowingly walking on broken glass for a while there. HC - good on you for getting it all back to code / spec. Awesome.

 

[begreen]

What is going to seal the front or will the block off plate be attached above the missing bricks? Are there any screws holding this piping together?

 

[Heat_Challenged]

Amen BB. My gut feeling is that the previous owners maybe never really got a good fire in that unit, not that it's a bad stove, but when the flue was tight it was a less than optimal setup. Then HC moved in, coincidentally the flue collar rots out at the same time, and the stove exhausts "easily" thru the hole(s) at the top plate of the chimney. Great burn. And a happy but unlikely coincidence that these problems actually cancelled each other out.

House was purchased in in 2009, stove burned in 2009 and again in 2010, called in chimney sweep in 2011 for cleaning and caught the serious issues almost by accident. As the king of stupid human tricks, I really hate to be preachy - especially about something that really isn't even stupid (more like misplaced trust, perhaps) - but I will for just a second.

For anyone (new home buyer) reading this - you just bought a place with a wood burning appliance? Excellent. Get a qualified sweep in to go over it top to bottom before you consider lighting it for the first time. The Heat Challenged family is ok today ironically due to multiple leaks in the system counteracting each other. They will continue to be ok due to HC's new-found skills and diligence (and obvious care). But they were unknowingly walking on broken glass for a while there. HC - good on you for getting it all back to code / spec. Awesome.

............
Absolutely lucky, that's for sure.

The home inspector signed off on the woodstove in 2009 before I bought the place. However, he didn't take the insert out, of course. Funny thing was, I had never seen a woodstove back in Alberta where I came from. Even heating with oil was foreign to me. I got both in this new house, so I really should have brought in a specialist. Lesson learned.

I must have made a mistake in one of my first posts---I actually got the chimney sweep the next summer, so 2010, but then again in 2011. I didn't skip 2010.

This time around, I'm erring on the side of obsessive compulsive disorder by making sure I do everything I can to make it as safe and effective as possible.

cheers