I've been heating with a jotul nordic and although I'm impressed with the simplicity and heat output, the single front loading door and small firebox makes this an extremely inconvenient stove to load. So I do like jotul performance but the only side-door stoves they offer are way too large for my house. The black bear looks like a nice design for loading up on those deep freeze nights but I thought I heard some negative feedback about it in the past. Anybody familiar with this model??
opinions on jotul blackbear?
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Really there has been little feedback on this website about that stove. I can say some things about it, but I'm slightly biased because I've spoken at length with the design engineer and I am impressed with the operation of the unit.
Some complaints that I have heard is that the stove burns wood quickly, leaving HUGE coal beds and no room for refueling. I don't know if this is a problem everyone is having, but I have heard it from one or two people.
Otherwise though, the flashfire system is a niec feature on the stove, combined with great looks, the ability to vent in any direction and the big heat output. It takes a good long log, burns with gorgeous flames out of those long parallel secondary tubes and I personally didn't see any of the serious coal build up others had talked about, although m experience with the stove is very limited.
The president of Jotul North America heats his home with one of these stoves and was very impressed by the big heat output and the good burn times he is getting.
I think if the F100 is sufficient to heat your home, you'll be more than happy by performance of the F118.
Some complaints that I have heard is that the stove burns wood quickly, leaving HUGE coal beds and no room for refueling. I don't know if this is a problem everyone is having, but I have heard it from one or two people.
Otherwise though, the flashfire system is a niec feature on the stove, combined with great looks, the ability to vent in any direction and the big heat output. It takes a good long log, burns with gorgeous flames out of those long parallel secondary tubes and I personally didn't see any of the serious coal build up others had talked about, although m experience with the stove is very limited.
The president of Jotul North America heats his home with one of these stoves and was very impressed by the big heat output and the good burn times he is getting.
I think if the F100 is sufficient to heat your home, you'll be more than happy by performance of the F118.
Use the search feature on this site, for "f118" and "black bear", the downsides of this stove have been pretty thoroughly written about, by myself for one. I think it's an intriguing stove design but it's liabilities exceed it's strengths, and I would encourage you to look at another model.
Looking through some other posts regarding this stove yields as many, if not more users which are overall satisfied with the unit. Like MSG has said before on here too, he's never had a service call or complaint on that stove.
Like I previously said, if the heat output of the F100 was good for you, you should be able to tweak the 118 to give you much longer burns and better heat output.
To address what sounds like a problem with sufficient room for a stove though, what are the constraints of your installation?
Like I previously said, if the heat output of the F100 was good for you, you should be able to tweak the 118 to give you much longer burns and better heat output.
To address what sounds like a problem with sufficient room for a stove though, what are the constraints of your installation?
Sorry Corie, but I disagree. You may get long "burn times" (i.e. hot coals in the stove) because of the ability to cut off all the air supplies completely, but you're not going to get long periods of flame out of the F118, due to the small diameter of wood you must use in it. Remember that it's loading door is the same size as the little F602. You're looking at 3-4" diameter wood at best, in a stove that ignites the whole fuel load at once. It's a recipe for short, hot burns, not a long burn.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think you're considering the circumstances that the stove is being installed in.
From what I gathered from the original post, the F100 almost kept up with his heating needs on all but the coldest nights. He doesn't mention short burn times being a problem, even though the current stove is significnatly smaller in firebox volume than the F118. Therefore I've reached the conclusion that the F118 might be just enough extra stove for his needs.
I know you were unimpressed with the 24-7 operation and whole house heating ability of the stove, but IMO that's not what he's looking for if he's already almost satisfied with a much smaller stove.
Then again, we might both be preaching to the choir here! haha
Original poster, any input?
From what I gathered from the original post, the F100 almost kept up with his heating needs on all but the coldest nights. He doesn't mention short burn times being a problem, even though the current stove is significnatly smaller in firebox volume than the F118. Therefore I've reached the conclusion that the F118 might be just enough extra stove for his needs.
I know you were unimpressed with the 24-7 operation and whole house heating ability of the stove, but IMO that's not what he's looking for if he's already almost satisfied with a much smaller stove.
Then again, we might both be preaching to the choir here! haha
Original poster, any input?
getting back to this subject a bit late... Although the nordic heats my house adequately the short burn time is a problem. Also the fire box is so small that loading the stove to it's capacity is tricky and if you don't let the wood burn completely down before opening the door the embers will spill out. Its also a chore having to split the wood down to the smaller sizes the stove requires. Just not a good choice for a primary heat source unless you're super insulated and don't need constant heat output. The black bear will stick out into my very small living room much more than I'd like but the loading design appealed to me. If I get too large a stove it'll be hard to not overheat the house during milder winter temps. I like jotul but maybe will have to forgo them for another manufacturer.
Maybe the Jotul F3 would be enough of a step up to address your needs? It takes 18" wood and isn't as prone to things rolling out the front as the F100 is. But it sounds to me like you were looking at the F118 for it's front-to-back geometry, a logical move. Unfortunately, there's a limited selection of small stoves like that. The F602 is, but it's firebox is even smaller than the F100. The VC Aspen is a possibility, but seems to have other issues. Maybe Corie can give some input on that, he recently rebuilt one. Maybe you're looking for that elusive small stove with a big firebox... 
Any stove you get that is adequate for the deep of winter will have to be operated in throttled-down mode in milder weather. Smaller fires, essentially. Or open a window to regulate temps...
Any stove you get that is adequate for the deep of winter will have to be operated in throttled-down mode in milder weather. Smaller fires, essentially. Or open a window to regulate temps...
Yes, I was thinking of the F3CB Jotul as well. Sweet little stove. It will hold 18" wood, though just a few medium splits. Expect to load it every 3-4 hrs.. If that is OK, then it should work well. Or consider the VC Intrepid if you like the idea of the longer burning catalytic. I have a friend heating an A frame house with one and it does well.
Otherwise, I would go to a medium sized stove and just burn smaller, shorter fires in the shoulder seasons.
Otherwise, I would go to a medium sized stove and just burn smaller, shorter fires in the shoulder seasons.
dvellone, I think you will love the F118 Black Bear. The firebox isn't
that much smaller than the old 118 (which was an amazing stove). The
Black Bear's secondary combustion system should make the burn times
between the old and new 118 comparable and you're sure to have much
longer stretches between load times than you would with the Nordic and
3CB. I didn't see any details on the area you're trying to heat but for
what it's worth, I thought the Oslo was going to be way too big for my
house. Turned out to be a perfect fit...
that much smaller than the old 118 (which was an amazing stove). The
Black Bear's secondary combustion system should make the burn times
between the old and new 118 comparable and you're sure to have much
longer stretches between load times than you would with the Nordic and
3CB. I didn't see any details on the area you're trying to heat but for
what it's worth, I thought the Oslo was going to be way too big for my
house. Turned out to be a perfect fit...
Drafty, do you have any experience burning the F118? It's a totally different animal than the old 118.
When I purchased the nordic I considered the f3 because I knew from past experience with my old dutchwest that during full time heating I didn't like the lack of an ash pan, but the f3 was 50% more in cost and didn't seem to be 50% more stove. In other words, the fire box is marginally larger than the nordic and for the jump in price it was hard to justify. That is the point where I convinced myself that I could live with ash removal through the loading door! I've only got two seasons of use on the nordic and it's in great shape - do jotuls hold value well or is it not really worth selling it for the hit I'd take? It would be hard to justify taking a big loss on the stove and then spending more on a larger stove but I know though that I'm not looking forward to the next heating season and the frustrating chore of trying to stuff the nordic to it's capacity.
New Jotuls hold value pretty well. You should be able to get a good chunk of what you put into the stove back. But don't sell it now if you are going to sell it. Wait until the end of the summer when the gas prices are soaring. There will be lots of eager buyers then. I would however, recommend buying a new stove soon, rather than waiting until the dealers also see that surge in sales.
precaud said:
I'd love to burn an F118 but I'll admit I've only run one in my
dreams
I realize that there are a few people on the forum who haven'tfound the stove to be satisfactory. For myriad reasons, no stove is
going to be right for every install. I learned this when I purchased
my Castine; the stove wasn't a good fit for my house but it's a great
stove in other homes and on other hearths. I've done some homework on
the Black Bear and talked to people outside the forum who love it. It
seems to me that the stove would be an excellent fit for dvellone's
replacement needs. I burn a 3CB currently and it's great too (although I
think dvellone's going to be happier with more stove)...the prices are
comparable. Either way, you can't go wrong with Jotul...
precaud said:Yes, but the question was about used ones...Corie said:
Newer (USED) Jotuls hold there value well putz
precaud said:Maybe the Jotul F3 would be enough of a step up to address your needs? It takes 18" wood and isn't as prone to things rolling out the front as the F100 is. But it sounds to me like you were looking at the F118 for it's front-to-back geometry, a logical move. Unfortunately, there's a limited selection of small stoves like that. The F602 is, but it's firebox is even smaller than the F100. The VC Aspen is a possibility, but seems to have other issues. Maybe Corie can give some input on that, he recently rebuilt one. Maybe you're looking for that elusive small stove with a big firebox...
Any stove you get that is adequate for the deep of winter will have to be operated in throttled-down mode in milder weather. Smaller fires, essentially. Or open a window to regulate temps...
That elusive stove is exactly what I'm looking for! The front to back geometry of the black bear is definitely what appeals to me but I will have to sacrifice precious floor space in my living room. The f3 does seem to be the answer in some respects - bit of a longer burn time, some more btu's and most importantly the ash drawer. When I bought the nordic I had been considering the vc intrepid because of the ash drawer and top loading feature and now those are the features I wish I had. Though a friend has the intrepid and it doesn't seem to achieve as many btu's as the nordic. Its too bad they don't engineer a side loading door on the small and mid stoves. That would solve some headaches for folks that heat full time with wood. That front loading feature just doesn't make much sense to me from a practical standpoint.
I'm going out on a limb here, but I think you need a Castine. But it can be draft sensitive, so first tell us what chimney the stove is connected to.
The F400 can work a wide range of temperatures and will provide an overnight burn with good fuel. I think it has the flexibility you are looking for.
The F400 can work a wide range of temperatures and will provide an overnight burn with good fuel. I think it has the flexibility you are looking for.
There are two models of Intrepids. one being a cat combustor stove, the other a non cat. Vermont Castings dropped the non Cat from its line up ,due to it never preformed as well as the .
cat model. I have the Cat model and have burned it two seasons. This is by far the best smaller stove area heater in the market
Realistically one can achieve 6 hours of productive heat per load (Productive heat is above 450 griddle top temps) At times I have been alble to rake the coals 8 hours later and have enough to fire the re load the hours beyond the 6 productive heat dropp off anywhere between 200 to 300 griddle top temps. Here are some advantages as mentioned the convience of top loading.
I am able to pack the sd stove better than side or front loading . The Cat combustor produces a secondary burn that extracts more heat out of the wood. Third and most important is thermatically controled secondary air supply to the combustor compartment. This automatically controles the burn rate and extends the productic the burn time. IT evens off the high end quick burning of you wood to delivering an even burn of say 500 to 550 griddle top temps for close to 6 hours per load.
Again any stove has to be sized correctly. Meaning a stove able to heat the area while opperating under 700 degrees. Once one has to push any stove over 550 ,the price paid is shorter burn times, especially in a smaller fire box. You may really need to move into the medium size stoves. Stoves that heat in a renge of 35,000 to 50,000 BTUS Again I have had exoerience in this range the Resolute Acclaim and the Cat Encore of the two I would suggest the Cat Encore knowing it is normal to produce 8 hours of produvtive burns. No guess work, but from actuall burning experience. ARE these the best stoves debatable, not but they are the ones I can draw direct experience from. Also the stoves I have rebuilt Jotul is a fine quality company no taking anything away from that. as are all the other suggestions others have made
[quote author="BeGreen" date="1176453222"]I'm going out on a limb here, but I think you need a Castine. But it can be draft sensitive, so first tell us what chimney the stove is connected to.
The nordic is vented into 6" close clearance double wall stainless from the top of the stove to the 1st floor ceiling where it adapts into double wall insulated stainless chimney (selkirk metalbestos) through 2nd floor, roof (the house is a cape) and terminating 5 feet above house peak. It is a straight run from the top of the stove to its cap. 21 feet total.
The nordic is vented into 6" close clearance double wall stainless from the top of the stove to the 1st floor ceiling where it adapts into double wall insulated stainless chimney (selkirk metalbestos) through 2nd floor, roof (the house is a cape) and terminating 5 feet above house peak. It is a straight run from the top of the stove to its cap. 21 feet total.
Sounds similar to our install. It should be fine with a Castine. You might even want to add a draft damper.
I'm going to join you out on that limb, BG, and point out that, in use, the Castine is a completely different animal than the F100. If you're burning 24/7 then I'd say it would be fine. But if you're starting fires from scratch daily, as many of us do who use smaller stoves, the Castine is going to feel like a PITA real quick. You'll be using 2-3 times as much kindling and smaller splits to get fires started.
What bothers me about recommending such a larger stove is that he says the F100 is heating his space just fine, and his complaints are more in the nature of user-friendliness than heating performance. A north-south burning arrangement more accurately solves his complaints than a simply larger stove does.
What bothers me about recommending such a larger stove is that he says the F100 is heating his space just fine, and his complaints are more in the nature of user-friendliness than heating performance. A north-south burning arrangement more accurately solves his complaints than a simply larger stove does.
I appreciate all the input. Wish I'd referenced this site prior to purchasing the nordic. In retrospect had I really been thinking and been familiar with front loading small stoves I might have figured that the nordic would be a chore. Also, if were to offer anyone advice on this stove as I wish the dealer had done with me I would say that as a supplemental heat source, or heater for just a part of a house, a room, etc, the stove would be fine but to rely on it 100 percent wouldn't be a good idea unless heating an extremely well insulated and very small house.
Devellone,
If you should decide to sell the Nordic I could be a potential buyer. I'm looking for a small used stove for a retirement home. The home is not used in the winter so it wouldn't be burning 24-7. Anyway, the Nordic is one of the stoves I've considered so keep me in mind. Where are you located?
Chip Tam
If you should decide to sell the Nordic I could be a potential buyer. I'm looking for a small used stove for a retirement home. The home is not used in the winter so it wouldn't be burning 24-7. Anyway, the Nordic is one of the stoves I've considered so keep me in mind. Where are you located?
Chip Tam
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