Old stove, new user

[manooti]

That's a lot of good info there. Thank you.

Using coal right now it keeps going out. I'm afraid of giving it too much air because I don't want to over fire it. Sometimes it seems like I have to open the ash door completely for it to start up. Other times it's fine. But end result is always still unused coal and its out. How do I know if draft is good without manometer? Is there a way to test that? I noticed the stove top temp get close to 500 and stovepipe is barely hot, well just enough to touch it for a few seconds. With wood you can't touch it.

When I fixed the gaskets the box is now completely air tight.

I'm just paranoid I guess.

 

[manooti]

Well.. after some research... I found out the size I need and it seems the stove is missing the holder. Thought the cat would fit in the brackets but now the brackets are supposed to hold the cat holder.
(broken link removed)

No idea what to do next except make it look pretty. Was hoping on using both wood and coal. Im surrounded by dead trees on my property. Awesome start to the new year.

 

[coaly]

When you have the coal burning a few hours, are you getting blue flames from the top of coal pile and how high are they?
Do the flames go out when you open ash pan door? That is normal when first starting since you don't have enough glowing mass, and not enough coal to slow the draft from lifting the flames off the pile. Once established and deep, you can open ash door without loosing flames. They will grow when you open door and not go out.
It should glow down on the grates when started, then as you put cold coal on top, it covers the fire. Do that until the glow comes up through to the top. Then keep covering until full.
With the air adjustment wide open, the flame should get so high they reach the top. Then close it about half way and see if they die down to a couple inches high. Give it time to respond. Closing it more should have small blue flames. This is all after burning long enough that the coal is burning all the way across the grates. Looking under the grates through ash pan should be a glow everywhere. Dark spots are where it isn't burning yet. It takes hours in most stoves. Without a fan it's going to get that hot on top. 600 to 700 stove top with 100 degree pipe would be normal. As long as ash pan door is closed it shouldn't overfire. It's made to run wide open air shutter for full BTU output. Coal won't melt iron until air is induced with a blower. Ash built up under grates can melt them, but doesn't do harm to other parts of the stove.
Closing the air down to a crack should allow it to glow with no flame. But that is after it is established all the way across. I'm not sure if you have that yet.

When I first learned coal I had to start mine 2 or 3 times.
I was only familiar firing steam engines in locomotives and farm equipment. They all have blowers in the exhaust that is a steam line pointing upwards out of the stack through an orifice like a venturi to induce air flow through flues and firebox to bring air up through grates. When underway, the exhaust from cylinders is exhausted up the stack and that draws air through flues and firebox. I'm used to enough air to lift the fire the size of a pick up bed, so starting a tiny fire on a grate in the house took a while without a way to get lots of air up through it. Time was the answer. It responds very slowly.
You are no where near 800* stove top or glowing to be over fired. I don't think your fully ignited yet.

 

[manooti]

Yeah. I was way off then. My flames are little blue babies. It's weird because with ash door open the flames don't get too crazy but when I added coal and left ash door open the flames blew up to the top of the firebox as soon as I closed the glass doors. Then died down again.

 

[coaly]

The sign that you're getting secondary ignition of blue flame is good. You're getting the mass hot enough to expel gas from the coal and ignite it.
When you start it, little blue flames are all you get. Close ash door and open air fully. Wait until flames are a couple inches high. It takes time. 1/2 hour or more....... Then open ash door to see how much glow there is through grates. It may only be in one spot, or half the firebox. It slowly migrates until glow is across entire grate. Up to 4 to 6 hours, or overnight to establish fully across firebox. That is an established coal fire. I think you're rushing it. It can still be rough the next day, meaning not a solid glowing mass of the entire firebox. The first day or so you also have sticks and kindling mixed with the coal that can flare up as yellow and not allow even air up through the coal bed like holes in it.
When adding coal you probably didn't have a flame and put too much on top. As you close doors, the pocket of coal gas ignites. Doors open, air is rushing in to go up chimney diluting gas mix too lean to burn. Close doors and you get the right mixture and ignition. You may need to keep a shallow spot in the fire like a dish shape so it flames there easily. When filling, it's like a pilot light to ignite gas. Once raw gas mixes with enough air and starts up stack, it usually isn't flammable or as explosive as in the firebox where it's concentrated. It can woof at you opening doors when you give it a gulp of air, but not too common. Some firebox designs need that low spot to keep a flame more than others. My hopper keeps it deep in the center where it gravity feeds from a hopper in the center above grates and falls down hill to the edges where it's thinner, so that is where the flames are to ignite.
Below is a pic of my current coal fire keeping 1880 sf at 68* overnight, 70* day, using a bucket a day.
That is the bottom of hopper in center. It only glows under the hopper on grate and glows up through the pile all around it. It can't burn in the hopper with no air.


It took overnight to spread from the left half to the entire firebox. There are 2 buckets on the grate and one in the hopper. At the end of season when we stop filling it, and only shake it daily, it takes 3 days to burn out.

 

[manooti]

Thanks for the suggestion. I tried it all and it wont stay lit. I leave the air inlet open all the way and a few hours later, gone.
Right now I'm using wood.

 

[coaly]

Something is impeding the flow of air through fire bed.
Did you ever achieve blue flames 3 to 6 inches high or all the way to the top?? Once you get that, closing it down to a crack should not loose a fire.
In post #7 you mentioned trying to add baffle with bricks. You don't have any restriction in the stove for coal burning do you?
In coal mode it should be as shown in video.
Other than that, air leaks into stove above fire, or air leak into chimney reducing flue temperature and draft, or restriction. Coal takes a LOT of air. Seems it burns fine with some wood to get the stack hot and is at first drafting enough. The coal fire runs a much cooler stack and looses draft.

 

[manooti]

Sorry for late reply. The flames dont get that high. I dont think the air is being blocked because when i attempt a controlled overfire you can hear the roar of the fire. With coal, its like waiting behind the school bus on a one lane road.
Also.. I can only get the stove to 600 degrees with the ash door wide open. Is something wrong?My glass keeps getting dirty, I'm thinking its because it doesnt have the catalyst in because its missing the holder



On a brighter note, I passed inspection :D

 

[coaly]

Yes, something is wrong. If you leave the ash door open just a few minutes to empty ash pan, the flames should be to the top of the stove going out the stack.
Your post #24 mentions an added steel baffle plate. That's fine instead of a CAT for wood, but nothing can be there for coal.
Is the 4 foot horizontal pitched upward at all? It should be at least 1/4 inch per foot.
As far as the top temperature; You're comparing temperature of a radiant stove with single wall steel to yours which is a convection heater. The outer shell will not heat up like the top and sides of a firebox that radiates in all directions. Yours heats an air space very well with the hot air that comes out of the holes, not what radiates off the stove. In the morning at its lowest with blower on the top is only warm to the touch. I can always touch mine without getting burned. I can't keep my hand in front of air outlet for long. The moving air out vents should be hotter than the stove shell.
Your thermometer should be on the pipe as far from stove as possible where it enters chimney. Starting with wood it should jump up and as you start coal, temp will go back to almost room temperature. Once filled to top of coal banking plate, 100 to 150* is normal. Wide open air shutter should go above 200.

I assume you're referring to wood burning when you mention glass being dirty. Yours is primarily a coal stove with air bypass around grate to get secondary air above fire. (between banking plate and glass) This keeps fly ash from glass. A wood stove will have a much better air wash getting primary air around glass keeping smoke and soot from glass.

 

[manooti]

I see now. That makes sense. I checked the grate and there is no air space between the grate and the bottom of the doors. The grate's frame sits well on the holder. Wish I had the manual for this thing. Next year wife wants to get a wood stove since I'm battling coal right now lol.

I left in the fabricated steel baffle while using the coal too. Didnt think it needed to be removed. Ill try it again when I get another bag of coal. Can I still burn the unused coal? They werent burning so I just removed them. Theyre orange in color now.
The pipe is at an angle too, more than the 1/4 pitch. My plumbers level broke so guessing about 1/2 inch slope, but 3 90's total including the clean out. Its a rear exhaust stove not top. Top would of been better.

 

[coaly]

Reread my post #32 above.
Adding a baffle above fire changes the flow through fire bed. That is a restriction that probably won't allow enough air up through coal bed. Only use baffle in place of CAT in wood mode. See if flames get much higher without it. The coal fire needs to allow all the heat it can when starting to go up the flue to keep the draft strong enough for air flow through coal bed. Baffle keeps it in the stove, cooling flue and looses draft.

You can use all the old coal. Start it with fresh if you have it, then mix it in. Years ago people sifted their ash for any remaining coal pieces that fell through grates when shaking. Search "coal sifter" on eBay for various models, many are like a drum with holes to leave ash out.

She won't want a wood stove when you figure out the problem ! It won't go out until April when you let it go out.

 

[coaly]

I would not suggest bags.
If you buy your coal at a coal company, they may sell it bulk by the pound. Cost of bagging is more. I haul my own by the ton, but they weigh what you have and don't care what you put it in. I use buckets if I'm short for the year, and right now 5 buckets that weigh 35 lbs. each = 175 lbs for $18. That burns 7 days or more. I've never burned more than 2 tons a year. Delivery is 3 ton minimum and a little more per ton.

 

[SALVO]

Hi. I used to own Salvo Machinery and my late husband was the stove designer. I'll look for an owner's manual if you still need one. I know I don't have one for the model you have. That is quite old. I may have one for the new models that came out after 1988. Coal stoves did not have a catalytic converters. You can burn both coal and wood in the old coal stoves. The clearances are probably the same or at least more stringent in the newer models. Let me know if you want me to look for it.

 

[MCCMotormouth]

Hi. I used to own Salvo Machinery and my late husband was the stove designer. I'll look for an owner's manual if you still need one. I know I don't have one for the model you have. That is quite old. I may have one for the new models that came out after 1988. Coal stoves did not have a catalytic converters. You can burn both coal and wood in the old coal stoves. The clearances are probably the same or at least more stringent in the newer models. Let me know if you want me to look for it.

Hi There,
I am also in need of a manual if at all possible. I just acquired this old Salvo stove that I would like to put in my garage, but need the manual to show the inspector.

Thanks,
Mathew