ol timers theory

[Dune]

I have always, probably like most burners on the right coast, just cut dead pines. Two years ago I whacked a huge live pine to experiment. After two years on the stacks that stuff is as heavy as hardwood and burns beautifully. I credit it to the fact that the juice in that sucker hardened during seasoning. The ones before had lost that stuff.

Up here on the upper right coast, we let the dead pines rot, and burn the live ones that the retirees from the big city pay the tree services to cut.

Problem with the dead pine, you just don't know where it's been.

 

[Battenkiller]

I've been thinking this over all night... couldn't sleep because of this puzzling bit of info. Then it dawned on me. That old timer is right after all.

Wood is made up of about 70% hemicellulose. Hemicellulose is just hundreds to thousands of sugar molecules that are chemically bonded together. So it is sugar that causes bad creosote... and good creosote (is there such a thing?)... or no creosote.... all depending on how you burn. So, when all the sugar is gone (rotted away), there will be no more bad creosote because there will be no more fuel left to burn. Brilliant.

This is only the opinion of another old timer, so take it with a grain of salt.... or sugar.

 

[kettensäge]

Where can a buy a meter to measure sugar content?

Will those blood glucose meters work?

What is the correct range for most oak species?

 

[Backwoods Savage]

One licks the sugar after splitting.

Hickory has just about the sweetest, tastiest sap going. Problem is it doesn't run in the spring like maple sap does, so you can't really tap a hickory tree to make syrup. It does, however, leak out of the ends of the splits and hardens into crystals near the bark. When nobody is looking, I lick the ends to get the sugar. It's delicious.

Pictures would be appreciated.

 

[Battenkiller]

One licks the sugar after splitting.

Hickory has just about the sweetest, tastiest sap going. Problem is it doesn't run in the spring like maple sap does, so you can't really tap a hickory tree to make syrup. It does, however, leak out of the ends of the splits and hardens into crystals near the bark. When nobody is looking, I lick the ends to get the sugar. It's delicious.

Pictures would be appreciated.

No pics of lickety split, but here's what happens to you if you lick too much:

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Yup. Now I understand completely.

 

[onetracker]

ok here's a question then:

if you cut a live hardwood in july and a live hardwood in december, what would the difference in moisture content be?

if it was significant, then it surely would make sense to cut in the winter when the sap is down.
given a choice i would always cut later in the year.

others are of the school where you cut in summer, leave it sit for a w few weeks and let the leaves suck alot of the moisture out.

these would be helpful experiments for you guys with moisture meters.

any observations/opinions on this?

OT

 

[Battenkiller]

ok here's a question then:

if you cut a live hardwood in july and a live hardwood in december, what would the difference in moisture content be?

if it was significant, then it surely would make sense to cut in the winter when the sap is down.
given a choice i would always cut later in the year.

others are of the school where you cut in summer, leave it sit for a w few weeks and let the leaves suck alot of the moisture out.

these would be helpful experiments for you guys with moisture meters.

any observations/opinions on this?

I recently looked into this pretty extensively, and there is little scientific evidence for winter wood being significantly different in moisture content than any other season. A few percentage points, depending on species. This was a complete surprise to me because I had always assumed that winter-cut wood was a lot lower in MC. That's one of the reasons I always bought wood in the winter.

As far as the leaves sucking moisture out, there are feedback loops in living things to adjust for varying environmental conditions. Trees transpire primarily through tiny openings in the leaves called stomata. These are like little valves that close when the tree needs to conserve water, but open up to allow transpiration to occur when needed. Evapotranspiration is one way that tress move water up the tree. Both water and carbon dioxide are needed for photosynthesis, so the tree will pull that water up during daylight hours but close the stomata when dark comes in order to conserve water.

I have no idea if that mechanism completely shuts down after a tree bole is severed from its roots, but I think maybe it stops at that point, so the stomata would remain closed. I looked far and wide on the Interweb for this key piece of info, but so far I've found nothing definitive one way or the other. Anybody else know more about this?

 

[snowleopard]

Hickory has just about the sweetest, tastiest sap going. Problem is it doesn't run in the spring like maple sap does, so you can't really tap a hickory tree to make syrup. It does, however, leak out of the ends of the splits and hardens into crystals near the bark. When nobody is looking, I lick the ends to get the sugar. It's delicious.

Would this make you a red-naped sap-sucker?

 

[Mrs. Krabappel]

Would this make you a red-naped sap-sucker?

Nah, at this end of the world we only have yellow bellied sapsuckers. Which seems fitting.


And yeah, from a biological perspective, wood is comprised of long chains of sugars, though I'm not sure that was the inference in the OP.

 

[bogydave]

Last time I talked to an "ole timer" about fire wood, & had him listen, I was looking in the mirror.
I learned to not tell old timer's how to burn wood, I let them know how & why I do it the way I do it but never "tell" them, they'd forget anyway. LOL :lol:
Never heard that one, & probably will never try it.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

ol timer told me the other day...there is sugar in all wood and thats what causes the bad creosote...he said u can have wet wood and still be ok if the sugar has left the wood......i dont know to buy in this or not..im skeptical.....anyone have any info on this?

Your old timer is high

There IS sugar in wood. But that doesn't cause creosote.

1) Creosote is a distillate of crude oil, not a result of wood combustion

2) Soot is caused by lower than prime burning temperatures. Period. And has nothing to do with the sugars present in all plant matter.

 

[Battenkiller]

1) Creosote is a distillate of crude oil, not a result of wood combustion

2) Soot is caused by lower than prime burning temperatures. Period. And has nothing to do with the sugars present in all plant matter.

There are two main types of creosote - coal-tar and wood-tar. Coal-tar comes from petroleum, wood-tar comes from smoke. Burning sugar, hemicellulose, lignin, and the various extractives found in wood creates smoke... primarily wood-tars and elemental carbon (soot). If you can burn 100% of that smoke (that would be 100% efficiency), there will be no creosote formation because there will be no smoke left. If you keep your stack temps higher than the condensation point of the wood-tars, no creosote will form inside the chimney. If your stack temps are too low, you will get some creosote deposition no matter what kind of wood you are burning, or what you burn it inside of.

 

[Monkey Wrench]

Don't be saying wood contains sugar!!

The Food and Drug Administration will step in and take control of wood burning and claim they are here to help!!

I'm from the Gubberment and I'm here to help!!

I can see it now 2% addittional Sugar Tax on wood/stoves.


Delect this thread

 

[Battenkiller]

Delect this thread

Yes, with all this talk of sugar in the wood, it sounds very delectable to me.

 

[onetracker]

ok here's a question then:

if you cut a live hardwood in july and a live hardwood in december, what would the difference in moisture content be?

if it was significant, then it surely would make sense to cut in the winter when the sap is down.
given a choice i would always cut later in the year.

others are of the school where you cut in summer, leave it sit for a w few weeks and let the leaves suck alot of the moisture out.

these would be helpful experiments for you guys with moisture meters.

any observations/opinions on this?

I recently looked into this pretty extensively, and there is little scientific evidence for winter wood being significantly different in moisture content than any other season. A few percentage points, depending on species. This was a complete surprise to me because I had always assumed that winter-cut wood was a lot lower in MC. That's one of the reasons I always bought wood in the winter.

As far as the leaves sucking moisture out, there are feedback loops in living things to adjust for varying environmental conditions. Trees transpire primarily through tiny openings in the leaves called stomata. These are like little valves that close when the tree needs to conserve water, but open up to allow transpiration to occur when needed. Evapotranspiration is one way that tress move water up the tree. Both water and carbon dioxide are needed for photosynthesis, so the tree will pull that water up during daylight hours but close the stomata when dark comes in order to conserve water.

I have no idea if that mechanism completely shuts down after a tree bole is severed from its roots, but I think maybe it stops at that point, so the stomata would remain closed. I looked far and wide on the Interweb for this key piece of info, but so far I've found nothing definitive one way or the other. Anybody else know more about this?

this is helpful, BK

thanks

 

[Battenkiller]

Onetracker, I just found this. Haven't read it yet (grandkids are coming to visit any minute), just thought I'd post the link before I forgot. May help shed some light on the mechanisms involved.

(broken link removed to http://agnewsarchive.tamu.edu/drought/drghtpak98/drght46.html)