Ashful
Minister of Fire
There are more who will benefit from the elimination of such wasteful redistribution programs.
North East Free Wood Stove with Change out Program
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That program is not even tax funded so you are really pissing on the wrong tree here.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Not really interested in continuing this debate, or completely derailing the thread, but to correct your statement: The American Lung Assoc. takes approximately $1.5M in direct Federal funding per year, plus significant additional grant money, plus a lot of indirect tax money funneled thru the EPA. The elimination of that federal funding would very likely translate to the elimination of this program, so it's not honest to imply there's no tax funding of this program.
Apparently you are interested in continuing this debate and derailing this thread as two requests to stop posting your "anti-government" rants did not stop you from posting a third one. In addition, as my earlier post clearly shows the funds are coming from a settlement between the EPA and Dominion Energy and the ALA is just administering the program. Thus, reducing the direct or indirect federal funding to the ALA would certainly have an impact on its other programs but would not take anything away from this particular changeout initiative. It is very likely that it was actually Dominion who contracted with the ALA to oversee the changeout program. If it would be the EPA they would have gone through federal and state channels.
And I was restraining myself so far but for someone whose salary indirectly depends on Department of Defense spending, your "wasteful tax spending" rants don't lack in irony.
Call me a naive treehugger but I value clean air and people who stay warm in the winter more than tanks, missiles etc.
Can you please look for another playground now?
Ashful
Minister of Fire
There are bad people out there, Grisu. Someone has to protect you naive tree huggers from them.
Not sure why you're going for personal attacks, or bringing my job into this thread (not at all related). Let's not confuse paying for unfortunately necessary national security infrastructure with free handouts, whether it be stoves or not.
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we're doing well, building a boatload of stoves getting loaded up for the "host orders" to the mass merchants which are just starting to ship. the new "smartstove" is in production though most of the ones we are building now are going to Canadian Tire to our neighbors to the north. Northern Toll will be carrying them as well I think as a stock item, IFAIK the big boxes will offer on line this year which is typical of them with models we introduce the first season, then carry as stock in following seasons we have them on the assembly line as I type this, running CPM multi-fuel units behind them. goal for the month is 3K units and it looks like the guys are up to the challenge as we'll hit that mark probably with a day or two to spare.
guess it sounds cliché but I suppose the best way to honor the boss is to keep "dropping the lid" and making stoves to the standard he set many years ago, we're doing just that.
and I appreciate the sentiment my friend. I truly do
Sounds great; the company doing well I mean. So I can keep cautiously suggesting the Madison when people are looking for a budget mid-size stove? Any idea when you will have some info about it on your website?
It was not me either who started the personal attacks. Although I never had one of those "wasteful redistribution" grants from the American Lung Association, I am sure several of my colleagues in the Vermont Lung Center were supported in their research by one of ALA's programs. At least, I acknowledge that I am benefiting from the government instead of taking its money with one hand while protesting with the other. But certainly scientific research is not as important as the military. That the US spends 10 times as much on the military than on research shows the priorities here. Or railing against a $10 million stove changeout program while apparently supporting $600 billion in "defense" spending ("necessary national security infrastructure" LOL).
When you agree that much with military spending than just pretend all your taxes go there while I pay mine to support science, healthcare, and the poor. That way we can both be happy.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
I see that a bigger issue in wood stoves emissions is getting the smoke dragons out of operation, than trying to squeeze juice out of a prune as in spending a ton of money trying to get a couple more percent efficiency out of new stoves.
This way we dont give them more of an excuse to ban wood burning all together.
So these programs where ever the money comes from helps the cause.
This way we dont give them more of an excuse to ban wood burning all together.
So these programs where ever the money comes from helps the cause.
Well OK, but we can still rail against corporate welfare, the military-industrial complex and 'survival of the fittest' economics.
Yeah, Joful, you oughta be lined up against the wall and shot along with the illegal immigrants, welfare recipients and the rest of the bass turds that are getting rich off my redistributed tax dollars!
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Truth be told, only perhaps 5% of my sales are to the US government, or direct government-funded facilities. Commercial enterprise (automotive, commercial avionics, aerospace) is our primary revenue, and we get far more orders from the total sum of foreign governments than from our own.
this is PRECISELY my point of view on the subject, making the industry have to move to a tighter standard isn't going to change the emissions coming out of the literally indestructible Fishers still out there. just replacing all the non EPA units with Phase 2 stoves would do far more for cleaner air than the dropping of a few grams per hour off the already markedly cleaner stoves will.
well said Huntindog!
I've been saying for a while that helping ensure the wood supply is fully seasoned will do more than tighter emissions standards. Regulate the wood sellers for honest and fair advertising. If they say it is a cord of seasoned wood then it should be verifiable at <20% moisture and 128 cu ft..
But then you need to convince the average woodburner that paying for seasoned wood is worth the premium. Or do you want to keep firewood sellers from even offering green wood?
properly seasoned wood is a biggie no doubt, not certain how to effectively make that happen at the retail level. would the government (local? state ? federal?) certify cordwood for sale? seems a bit draconian heck they don't even certify pellet fuel for woodstoves directly.
public education would be a good place to spend money, though I believe that a company which retails firewood should be required to prove its being seasoned to <20% in order to sell it listed as "seasoned" firewood at point of sale. requiring these companies to moisture test wood is something worth exploring as meters aren't all that expensive. this is something that could be legislated at the state and local level to be most effective IMHO, leave the stove regulation to the feds as the units are sold over state lines commonly where firewood rarely is on any scale (other than pellets)
its a deep subject but worthy of discussion, im thinking a good topic for the green room maybe.
might go start one
this is where education is a key component. selling green wood isn't a criminal act unless its sold under the guise of being seasoned.
around these parts a lot of firewood sales are not what one would call a "storefront" operation, usually you see a stake bed truck or pickup with a load stacked in it with a sign "call ### - #### for firewood" I suppose in other areas there are more of the businesses which have firewood sales, I wouldn't be against anyone selling firewood out of their truck such as I mentioned above having to pull some kind of permit to do it but it should be inexpensive to them and should require certain caveats to sales such as point of sale proof of proper seasoning for sales of "seasoned" wood along with a flyer on hand to allow the buyer to read and understand what seasoned means.
ive bought green wood before got it quite cheap so it was worth it to buy to set up and season myself, but most average burners do not have the education I do being in the industry and would probably try to burn it before its time.
If I would be king for a day, I would outlaw those builder-grade fireplaces. (Which would likely mean my reign will exactly end after one day. ) They are several times dirtier than modern stoves (https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...e-end-of-the-world.126709/page-4#post-1707552) and are just wasting wood and heat. Get an EPA fireplace or a stove if you want to have a fire in your home. Those have at least tangible benefits.
) They are several times dirtier than modern stoves (https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...e-end-of-the-world.126709/page-4#post-1707552) and are just wasting wood and heat. Get an EPA fireplace or a stove if you want to have a fire in your home. Those have at least tangible benefits.
If I would be king for a day, I would outlaw those builder-grade fireplaces. (Which would likely mean my reign will exactly end after one day.
wow , I was eloquent in that thread (musta been drinking the good stuff)
from the post below the one you marked
'ya know, some of the best things i recall over the years were publicly sponsored ads and those which were offered by private organizations with help from government to cover costs. education itself can be made available im sure and would be a worthwhile thing to spend some money on.
i think reasonable discussion is important as well, when you look at the politics of politics these days there is precious little discussion on any topic you can come up with , its been replaced by partisan bomb throwing and intolerance of differing views. until we grow up and start communicating again with healthy respectful debate nothing will get accomplished"
kinda the same thing I was saying earlier (but without the high end booze) remarkable. note the disgust in the "politics of politics"
I agree on the dirty fireplaces though, I say "burn clean or burn electrons"
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Most folks I know with those hated builders grade fireplaces burn them extremely infrequently, if at all after the first year or two. I suspect their contribution to local particulate emissions is immeasurably small, when compared to other sources. Heck, the two OWBs up the street from me belch out more crap per hour, 24/7/365, than most of those fireplaces do in a year.
Is that not just another reason to stop putting them in? It's just like fancy packaging of a product. Entices someone to buy it but has no real value and wastes resources that could be put to better use somewhere else.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
I agree they're senseless, but can't agree on outlawing them just cuz you don't think they have value. Cosmetic indulgence is all around us (ever buy any car care products in your lifetime?), and who is to say what its value is to another?
if you're in it for the "cosmetics" or just to have an occasional fire to sit in front of do it in gas, if its going to be a wood burning unit it should have to meet a reasonable criteria for clean burning. I suspect the reason for infrequent use is the lack of output, bloody things waste far more heat than they retain for in home use. were it a unit which could heat effectively they would get more use IMHO. I get the selling point , everyone wants the ambiance of a fireplace (I wish I had one myself, so I could stuff an insert in it
) my point is that if a heating appliance (and this is just that) is installed in a dwelling , it should be an effective , efficient unit or its just taking up space, think of it this way , would you want a house with a fridge that only cooled to 70 degrees? or a washing machine that used 200 gallons of water for a normal load? heck no you wouldn't! why would you want a heating appliance that was only 25% efficient?
Ashful
Minister of Fire
I grew up in a house with four open fireplaces. Very inefficient, but I have fond memories of countless evenings spent in front of them. To each his own, I guess... but I still don't see any sense in passing a law against them.
(I still own one open fireplace at my current house, in addition to the two fitted with Jotul 12's).
(I still own one open fireplace at my current house, in addition to the two fitted with Jotul 12's).
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