New Woodstock Fireview owner.....
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Backwoods Savage said:
just for the fact that its not my stove has been keeping me out of this one...
im assuming a lot here , but ive been reading this thread through a few times, i think i see where the misunderstanding may have occurred
the unit was recently purchased at a discount, usually this kind of deal is found at this time of year, when origionally asked about the warranty , the person origionally talked to at the stove company may ahve assumed that the delivery, not the install was going to be in the ensuing fall (i may have missed this being clarified ) but craig, corie and the others are correct in the statement that warranty dates generally start with delivery even if the unit would not be used until the next season, thats simply the way these units are warranted. unlike a car (mentioned earlier)which has an odometer, ther is no way to track usage with a woodstove other than its been burned or not. IMO expecting a company to post date a warranty on a unit especially after selling the unit at a deep discount (no doubt due to it being very late in the hearth sales season ) is asking an awful lot. the fact that they have a 6 month NQA return policy is impressive (very actually) if you are worried about this timeframe, get the installation done and fire it up , it shouldnt take 6 months to figure out if this unit is not suitable. as for the quality of the unit , i cannot speak directly to it as i have never been around one , but the company does have a "no chit" serious reputation in the hearth manufacturers community as far as quality goes, that to me spells "good unit" ive been in the hearth manufacturing buisness for 15 years and have not heard any bad things about these stoves. its a sweetheart deal on a high end unit, i wouldnt worry about a warranty issue like this , think of it this way, they are showing a lot of confidence, if they had any thought that folks would return units in that manner , i guarantee they wouldnt offer that warranty.
just my 2 cents
rmcfall said:
These folks sound like the kind of people most companies would gladly not do business with and are going to be nothing but trouble to deal with.
-Colin
Backwoods Savage said:
Backwoods,
The others here are correct...this company is the least complained about woodstove company in the nation.....just read the user reviews on this forum...I think every one of their stove reviews are the highest ratings that can be received and they are consistent across the board. Their 6 month no questions asked return policy is also the best I've ever seen...almost unheard of.....a person could burn it 6 mo and then return it saying they didn't like the color of the stove. Also, I lived in Michigan for 23 years before joining the Air Force and moving and you're wrong that you can't burn this stove until next winter right now in Michigan......take any cold day after you receive it and fire it up...you'll know immediately if you like it or not......
As far as the warranty, it's (as others mentioned) like a car.....you can let a car sit for 6 mo and not put miles on it but the warranty is still ticking away because they're usually a combination of miles and/or time...whichever comes first.......example.... 3 yrs or 36,000 miles, which ever comes first. So, them wanting to start the warranty upon shipping and/or you receiving it, isn't unusual....you just come up with lame excuses as to why you can't burn it in Michigan until next year........pick a cold day and burn it......
Also, if you can't tell the difference between a "mis-communication" within a company vs a "lie", well then there are other "issues" here.....
Bottom line: do you want "red meat or fish" with that whine (wine)??? ;-)
cast, thank you for the kind words. It's kind of like a snake trying to shake hands. Yes, the whine. I could get nasty but refuse. So please folks, in the future keep it more civil and I will to.
Please allow me to review what has happened so perhaps those who wish to know more can be more enlightened and understand that:
1. Woodstock is a good company. No doubt about that and no arguement from anybody that I can see.
2. They have an excellent guarantee and the six months is outstanding. Why do they even offer the six months? It does not take much thought to understand why they do it. They have no dealer system which brings its own problems. Without saying more (people can think for themselves to understand more about this point) they have to offer something as an incentive because of the way they sell.
3. I do not expect to be treated differently than another customer. I only stated what I was told.
4. As for the warranty, for God's sake, quit comparing this to a car! (see number 2 above)
5. It appears lots of folks either do not read or understand some of what I have posted. For example, cast lived in Michigan so he knows that stove can be fired up right now. But did he read and understand that this stove would not be installed until next summer? Perhaps I should have been more clear is what happened. So moving right along:
Now for the real review:
1. When I originally contacted Woodstock about a stove (some time before this sale cropped up) I asked several questions about the stoves, one being about the 6 mo. guarantee. I informed the gentleman that we would not want the stove immediately but if we bought a stove at all we would want it sometime between this year's heating season and next (We do not have a backup heating system and we are remodelling next summer). When he talked about buying one then I asked him why I should because if (notice I was not even ready to buy at that time) I bought one then the 6 month guarantee would be worthless and a good share of the 1 year gurantee would also be the same. His statement to me was that when they run into this situation they normally would not start the 6 mo. guarantee until the heating season began the next fall. Please notice that I asked for nothing!
2. I asked that the company send literature.
3. After a few weeks I once again called for information on the stoves. They looked it up and I was on the list and should receive it soon. (How long does it take? Shouldn't you immediately recognize a prospective buyer? Without selling things you won't stay in business long!)
4. We waited.
5. We received a sale flier. Wow. That's a good sale!
6. I sent an email to the company stating that I was beginning to have doubts about them. They won't send the information they claimed they had but could send me a sale bill. Ah ha! Interested only in making that sale but perhaps they don't know how to get to that point. I've been in sales folks and this is not the way to do it!
7. I received a reply to my email and if I'd send them my address they would get information out immediately when they received my address.
8. Wait a minute! When I called to see about that literature (the second time) the guy looked it up on the computer and even verified the name and address. Yet now they apparently DO NOT have my address. What is going on here. Now I'm really beginning to have my doubts.
9. I sent them my address again.
10. The literature finally gets here.
11. After looking at all their literature and DVD, I called to ask more questions. One of those questions was concerning that 6 month guarantee and I stated what I had already been told about it. He stated that he would need to get it cleared but expected no problem.
12. We had to make up our minds fast because now we are now nearing the end of the sale. We finally decide, even though we still had a few doubts (but had read good things about the company and the stoves), to go ahead and get one and hopefully we are making the right decision.
13. I called to order the stove. A lady answered the phone.
14. I stated what we wanted to buy but also wanted to clarify a few points. One being the 6 month guarantee.
15. She balked and made a statement that perhaps I took wrong but she sounded rather brash and it did not set well with me. I thanked her and said no deal. Now perhaps I might not have taken her words so bad but we had already been frustrated just trying to learn about this company. After all, we requested information so they knew there was some interest. They did not send the information but I was on the list. Then they apparently "lost" my address. No wonder we didn't receive anything.
16. I threw away our notes and literature and considered the deal dead.
17. I posted on this thread and several people started getting on my case. Guess they all think I am a jerk. Maybe so!
18. Woodstock contacts me a few more times so we do reconsider.
19. Woodstock contacted a previous customer not too far from us and asked us to go look at the stove and talk with the owner.
20. I used to do lots of business with this family name years ago! It was practically as if I knew this gentleman. They were kind folks to accept us into their home without knowing us.
21. Last Saturday I once again talked to that lady and we did order the stove. Not only that, but we won't have to take immediate delivery! They asked only for a deposit, however, the entire bill was paid in full.
22. That, of course is not the entire story but hopefully you can understand it more now.
23. Hopefully you guys will get off my case and for sure I won't ask about our next car purchase. lol
24. No hard feelings.
25. We surely hope that stove is good... To be continued.
Please allow me to review what has happened so perhaps those who wish to know more can be more enlightened and understand that:
1. Woodstock is a good company. No doubt about that and no arguement from anybody that I can see.
2. They have an excellent guarantee and the six months is outstanding. Why do they even offer the six months? It does not take much thought to understand why they do it. They have no dealer system which brings its own problems. Without saying more (people can think for themselves to understand more about this point) they have to offer something as an incentive because of the way they sell.
3. I do not expect to be treated differently than another customer. I only stated what I was told.
4. As for the warranty, for God's sake, quit comparing this to a car! (see number 2 above)
5. It appears lots of folks either do not read or understand some of what I have posted. For example, cast lived in Michigan so he knows that stove can be fired up right now. But did he read and understand that this stove would not be installed until next summer? Perhaps I should have been more clear is what happened. So moving right along:
Now for the real review:
1. When I originally contacted Woodstock about a stove (some time before this sale cropped up) I asked several questions about the stoves, one being about the 6 mo. guarantee. I informed the gentleman that we would not want the stove immediately but if we bought a stove at all we would want it sometime between this year's heating season and next (We do not have a backup heating system and we are remodelling next summer). When he talked about buying one then I asked him why I should because if (notice I was not even ready to buy at that time) I bought one then the 6 month guarantee would be worthless and a good share of the 1 year gurantee would also be the same. His statement to me was that when they run into this situation they normally would not start the 6 mo. guarantee until the heating season began the next fall. Please notice that I asked for nothing!
2. I asked that the company send literature.
3. After a few weeks I once again called for information on the stoves. They looked it up and I was on the list and should receive it soon. (How long does it take? Shouldn't you immediately recognize a prospective buyer? Without selling things you won't stay in business long!)
4. We waited.
5. We received a sale flier. Wow. That's a good sale!
6. I sent an email to the company stating that I was beginning to have doubts about them. They won't send the information they claimed they had but could send me a sale bill. Ah ha! Interested only in making that sale but perhaps they don't know how to get to that point. I've been in sales folks and this is not the way to do it!
7. I received a reply to my email and if I'd send them my address they would get information out immediately when they received my address.
8. Wait a minute! When I called to see about that literature (the second time) the guy looked it up on the computer and even verified the name and address. Yet now they apparently DO NOT have my address. What is going on here. Now I'm really beginning to have my doubts.
9. I sent them my address again.
10. The literature finally gets here.
11. After looking at all their literature and DVD, I called to ask more questions. One of those questions was concerning that 6 month guarantee and I stated what I had already been told about it. He stated that he would need to get it cleared but expected no problem.
12. We had to make up our minds fast because now we are now nearing the end of the sale. We finally decide, even though we still had a few doubts (but had read good things about the company and the stoves), to go ahead and get one and hopefully we are making the right decision.
13. I called to order the stove. A lady answered the phone.
14. I stated what we wanted to buy but also wanted to clarify a few points. One being the 6 month guarantee.
15. She balked and made a statement that perhaps I took wrong but she sounded rather brash and it did not set well with me. I thanked her and said no deal. Now perhaps I might not have taken her words so bad but we had already been frustrated just trying to learn about this company. After all, we requested information so they knew there was some interest. They did not send the information but I was on the list. Then they apparently "lost" my address. No wonder we didn't receive anything.
16. I threw away our notes and literature and considered the deal dead.
17. I posted on this thread and several people started getting on my case. Guess they all think I am a jerk. Maybe so!
18. Woodstock contacts me a few more times so we do reconsider.
19. Woodstock contacted a previous customer not too far from us and asked us to go look at the stove and talk with the owner.
20. I used to do lots of business with this family name years ago! It was practically as if I knew this gentleman. They were kind folks to accept us into their home without knowing us.
21. Last Saturday I once again talked to that lady and we did order the stove. Not only that, but we won't have to take immediate delivery! They asked only for a deposit, however, the entire bill was paid in full.
22. That, of course is not the entire story but hopefully you can understand it more now.
23. Hopefully you guys will get off my case and for sure I won't ask about our next car purchase. lol
24. No hard feelings.
25. We surely hope that stove is good... To be continued.
Backwoods Savage said:
Hi,
you say "quit comparing it to a car" but that's exactly how car w work.......you could park a car in your garage for 3 years, put ZERO miles on it and, at the end of 36,000 miles or 36 months (which ever comes first) your warranty od done...over...period....No exceptions for "I want to buy it now, put NO miles on it for 2 years and then want the warranty to begin AFTER the second year is over.......doesn't work that way and you know it but instead of acknowledging it you skirt the issue by saying "quit comparing it to a car warranty".........
Backwoods Savage said:
comment: I also sent them my info on-line and it took about 5 weeks to get to me.....why they take so long, I don't know however, they have a lot of info on-line...even tell you how to make your own hearth pad....
Backwoods Savage said:
comment: I know of no other stove company that would go to those lengths to let you see their product..... Also, you said this in your first post:
"This lady sounded to me to be a but full of herself and would not honor the 6 mo. guarantee as stated by other people whom I had already discussed this with.."
comment: at that point and going forward, the mis-communication was your fault....when confronted with two different answers, you should have demanded to talk to the company owner and/or the most senior staff member on the premises and then you should have told him/her both stories and gotten it in writing from that person before ordering......bottom line: you failed to go to the top to get it resolved and then you vented......called them "liars", etc......as I stated earlier, there appear to be "other issues" here...... ;-)
Excuse me castiron. You say I should have asked, no, demanded to talk with the company owner. I was informed this lady was the president and general manager! And evidently you don't quite understand. Get off the buying of a car. What has that to do with the price of eggs in Chicago?
It is apparent that you can't read and understand and in the interest of better relations on this forum, I won't answer your posts on this threadfrom this point onward so if you wish to post and answer to try to make me out to be the goat, have at it. I'm done as this can't go any further. Still, no hard feelings.
It is apparent that you can't read and understand and in the interest of better relations on this forum, I won't answer your posts on this threadfrom this point onward so if you wish to post and answer to try to make me out to be the goat, have at it. I'm done as this can't go any further. Still, no hard feelings.
Backwoods Savage said:
Backwoods,
Then if you were talking to the president, why didn't you ask her to canvas her people to find out who said something different to you and then have her give it to you in writing???? This is clearly a mis-communication and for you to rant and rave about them being "liars" is, well, perplexing.....as I said....there are other "issues" at work here... Were you by chance a "difficult child"..... ??
Dennis, virtually everything in this thread is educational - for us, for woodstock (who are forum members) and for anyone in business.
I hesitated to add to the thread because it really did seem that you tend to take the various opinions very personally. That's your prerogative - I am highly sensitive myself and know a lot of other people who are the same way.
No doubt other forum members may fall at different places on the scale - and I have more than once suggested sensitivity training for certain posters. However, I do not see too much in this thread that would be considered over the line......you have to understand that many people may not have the writing or communication skills that you do, and therefore you have to gleam the meaning behind certain posts - for instance, if someone says "maybe you are the kind of customer that a manufacturer can do without"....this is not a person who knows you. However, they may know (as a retailer, etc.) that once in a long while it is OK for a business to turn customer away. And they may be asking you "are you being too tough?"
You are certainly welcome to use the forum now and forever - we love our customers here (even Frank Ivy). However, if it becomes a source of upset for you, I would suggest that you try to either ignore or "translate" those posts which offend. BTW, I'm sure you noticed there is an "ignore" feature to this forum - you can selectively ignore members.
The moderators and I try to keep things relatively civil, while at the same time we think the least moderation is often the best.
I hesitated to add to the thread because it really did seem that you tend to take the various opinions very personally. That's your prerogative - I am highly sensitive myself and know a lot of other people who are the same way.
No doubt other forum members may fall at different places on the scale - and I have more than once suggested sensitivity training for certain posters. However, I do not see too much in this thread that would be considered over the line......you have to understand that many people may not have the writing or communication skills that you do, and therefore you have to gleam the meaning behind certain posts - for instance, if someone says "maybe you are the kind of customer that a manufacturer can do without"....this is not a person who knows you. However, they may know (as a retailer, etc.) that once in a long while it is OK for a business to turn customer away. And they may be asking you "are you being too tough?"
You are certainly welcome to use the forum now and forever - we love our customers here (even Frank Ivy). However, if it becomes a source of upset for you, I would suggest that you try to either ignore or "translate" those posts which offend. BTW, I'm sure you noticed there is an "ignore" feature to this forum - you can selectively ignore members.
The moderators and I try to keep things relatively civil, while at the same time we think the least moderation is often the best.
Ideally, most forum readers, and probably most posters for that matter, would be better served if people didn't post immediately when someone writes something that gets under their / our skin. It is usually tiresome to read, and yields little fruit when confrontations get personal, even though few people would ever admit that anyone can get under their skin. But remember, for those of us not born yesterday, unproductive quibbling is tedious, and in many cases, a waste of time, although not in all cases when the facts are also flying. Take a deep breath, step away from the keyboard, and collect yourself. If you are still steamed, repeat. If still steamed, well, we readers are in for a special verbal treat (sarcasm).
I've been on the Internet since before the graphical user interface based browsers, all based on Marc Andreesen's Mosaic BTW, which I embraced like my first girlfriend (mmmm)... ah, hem... and I feel like I've just about seen it all from the original dial-up bulletin boards, to the Usenet groups (man did those get ugly!), to the modern forum and blog sites. At some point or another, nearly everyone, even Mo, is tempted and succumbs to baiting a fellow poster. This is the point where you either contribute to the elevation of the forum and the Internet community, or bring it down a notch by indulging yourself in petty bickering, baiting, self gratification, or one upmanship.
Just remember, half the time you don't know the person whose post you're reading and have no idea of their tone. The other half the time their message is getting distorted by reader filtering, skimming posts, which misses critical semantics or even entire words, or wholesale misinterpretation. I read somewhere along the line that only about 5 - 15% of an idea is conveyed through written words when compared to face to face conversation where body language and verbal inflection compliment words.
There was one particular poster that irked me to no end. I found myself instinctively reaching for the delete button, but only on a couple occasions did I pull the trigger. I was tempted to put them on my ignore list, but being a moderator I felt I should probably be reading their posts "just in case". On many occasions I was baited, but I always resisted engaging this poster, although it was seldom easy. Some people just rub me the wrong way. I'm sure everyone can relate. But I find it more rewarding later to have resisted a roll in the mud, so I try always to ignore the first salvo or at least to repond in a kinder and gentler way to try and change the tone of the exchange. Try it sometime and see for yourself. We'll be glad you did.
Too bad everyone isn't like me. I guess some people just love a good argument. This has been a public service announcement from Mo. Carry on...
I've been on the Internet since before the graphical user interface based browsers, all based on Marc Andreesen's Mosaic BTW, which I embraced like my first girlfriend (mmmm)... ah, hem... and I feel like I've just about seen it all from the original dial-up bulletin boards, to the Usenet groups (man did those get ugly!), to the modern forum and blog sites. At some point or another, nearly everyone, even Mo, is tempted and succumbs to baiting a fellow poster. This is the point where you either contribute to the elevation of the forum and the Internet community, or bring it down a notch by indulging yourself in petty bickering, baiting, self gratification, or one upmanship.
Just remember, half the time you don't know the person whose post you're reading and have no idea of their tone. The other half the time their message is getting distorted by reader filtering, skimming posts, which misses critical semantics or even entire words, or wholesale misinterpretation. I read somewhere along the line that only about 5 - 15% of an idea is conveyed through written words when compared to face to face conversation where body language and verbal inflection compliment words.
There was one particular poster that irked me to no end. I found myself instinctively reaching for the delete button, but only on a couple occasions did I pull the trigger. I was tempted to put them on my ignore list, but being a moderator I felt I should probably be reading their posts "just in case". On many occasions I was baited, but I always resisted engaging this poster, although it was seldom easy. Some people just rub me the wrong way. I'm sure everyone can relate. But I find it more rewarding later to have resisted a roll in the mud, so I try always to ignore the first salvo or at least to repond in a kinder and gentler way to try and change the tone of the exchange. Try it sometime and see for yourself. We'll be glad you did.
Too bad everyone isn't like me.
I guess some people just love a good argument. This has been a public service announcement from Mo. Carry on...
Backwoods Savage said:
Backwoods.....just responded to your PM to me...sorry if you thought I was too harsh on you....my only comment is that sometimes we (you in this case and it's happened to all of us at times) are so close to a situation that we (you in this case) felt lied to whereas outside observers who have no axe to grind simply look upon this as a "mis-commumication between you and the vendor".....granted, we didn't have to go through the frustration level that you did but lacking that very experience is what allows outsiders to render what they believe to be the correct decision that there was mis-communication between you and the vendor and not that this vendor lied to you.....if I were in your shoes I'm sure I'd see it a bit differently (as you did) but that's what second opinions (other forum members) are good for......to give you an outsiders view and to let cooler heads prevail...but as I said, we've all been there.... keep posting and I'll stop ragging on you....M GO Blue......LOL
Backwoods,
I hope the purchase works out well for you. It certainly sounds like you got the best of all worlds. It's hard to believe that a manufacturer would go to the lengths that they did in this case. It would be nice to see more of that from manufacturers and retailers at times. I hope things work out well for all the parties involved.
I guess that under the right circumstances you can have your wood and burn it too ;-)
BTW, welcome to hearth.com
I hope the purchase works out well for you. It certainly sounds like you got the best of all worlds. It's hard to believe that a manufacturer would go to the lengths that they did in this case. It would be nice to see more of that from manufacturers and retailers at times. I hope things work out well for all the parties involved.
I guess that under the right circumstances you can have your wood and burn it too ;-)
BTW, welcome to hearth.com
Well I'll be darned. MrGriz, you are the first and only one who has welcomed me to the forum! Hospitality indeed. Thank you.
It's hard to believe that a manufacturer would go to the lengths they did in this case? What about the buyer?! Perhaps if you knew all the details you would understand a little better, but I feel that both parties worked together. Oh how I wish our customers (yes, I was in sales and management) would have done that when we were still in the sales business!
We do hope this all works out for both parties. Because of my background, even though I am no longer involved in the working world, by habit I am presently doing a "learn list." That is, let's analyze the whole situation and see what can be learned from it. It is taking a bit longer than exected but I still enjoy doing it and it is interesting to say the least.
It's hard to believe that a manufacturer would go to the lengths they did in this case? What about the buyer?! Perhaps if you knew all the details you would understand a little better, but I feel that both parties worked together. Oh how I wish our customers (yes, I was in sales and management) would have done that when we were still in the sales business!
We do hope this all works out for both parties. Because of my background, even though I am no longer involved in the working world, by habit I am presently doing a "learn list." That is, let's analyze the whole situation and see what can be learned from it. It is taking a bit longer than exected but I still enjoy doing it and it is interesting to say the least.
I did not mean to overlook your effforts in this case Backwoods. We just seemed to be focusing on what Woodstock was and was not willing to do regarding the warranty, etc....
I've been in sales all my life and now own my own company; I've also bought my share of mid and big ticket items. I try to look at situations from both sides. If you can objectively do that, you can usually find a middle ground. Unfortunately, it is often difficult to remove one's self far enough from their own situation to be truly objective. It sounds like you and Woodstock were able to find that middle ground, meaning you both had to take steps to get there.
Keep us posted as to how things turn out.
I've been in sales all my life and now own my own company; I've also bought my share of mid and big ticket items. I try to look at situations from both sides. If you can objectively do that, you can usually find a middle ground. Unfortunately, it is often difficult to remove one's self far enough from their own situation to be truly objective. It sounds like you and Woodstock were able to find that middle ground, meaning you both had to take steps to get there.
Keep us posted as to how things turn out.
MrGriz, the stove has been paid for and delivery will take place at a later date. We hope to do the installation in July or August.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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