New wood stove install

[j7art2]

Boy, if they were trying to sell you a VC over a Osburn, I'd question if they really have your best interest in mind...I'd say no.
VC was good years ago, but not in a long time now.

It was more or less an argument of plate steel vs cast iron and the benefits and drawbacks of both. After doing a quick search, it sounds like VC is a sh*tshow right now, so I'll notably avoid.

I'm going to get an estimate from another place, and they're a Kuma, Quadrafire, and Hearthstone dealer. Their average cost was actually almost a thousand less than the place that came out today. The QF 4300 looks great at a glance (and will apparently start it own fires at a push of a button), and Kuma and Hearthstone seem to have good offerings at a glance without doing any research, but they're both cat stoves.

I'm going to be doing some digging here to see what some of the best options are out there. In speaking to the wife who does taxes for a living, she's perfectly okay (and would prefer) not getting the tax credit as it's less work and headache on her, so I guess this particular selling point has become a non-issue.

I'd prefer not to deal with a cat anyway to be honest, and I'm not sure there's many (if any) non-cat stoves that meet the standard except for on crib wood. I'm not sure if they're using crib wood just to pass regulations or if they expect people to burn kiln dried lumber in their stoves, but at the very minimum it sounds like I'm going to need to start doing more research; specifically on what to avoid if anything.

 

[begreen]

It's good to look at the options. The Quad 4300 does not have a self-starter, it has ACC which is a startup air control on a timer. Lopi stoves have a self-starter option. In addition to Quad, Lopi, and Osburn, also consider Regency and Pacific Energy while looking.

 

[j7art2]

The quote installed for the QF4300, hearth pad, chimney, cap, and installation is $7800.

Still waiting on the Osburn 3300 quote, I'll likely get that one tomorrow. I imagine it'll likely be around the same; or within $1000.

Unfortunately there aren't any PE dealers near me, but the place that sells QF also sells Regency. I'll check out their models too. I'm gonna give Hearthstone a pass, as they seem to also have potential issues.

If it came down to the Osburn 3300 or the QF4300, which is the better go?

Osburn claims 90k BTU, heating 900-2300 sqft, with 3.3cu ft firebox.
QF 4300 claims 61,700 BTU, heating 1100-3000 sqft with 2.3 cu ft firebox.

I'm surprised the QF has a much higher claimed square footage rating for being a smaller box and smaller BTU. Maybe I'm missing something here.

I'm leaning toward the Osburn for less loading times despite it claiming to heat 700sqft less due to the higher BTU and bigger box. I still question if I shouldn't go for the 3500 like initially planned as it's not that much bigger, but that's not what I was initially quoted for as he talked me out of one that size saying I'd be heating us out of house and home with it.

My home is 1800 sqft, 2 floors, with unheated unfinished basement. The stove would be in the living room on the main floor. My bedroom is directly above the stove on the second floor with my son directly across the stairs, my daughter would be in the next room on the main level, so we wouldn't pushing heat down long hallways or anything like that.

Michigan winters where I live CAN occasionally see rare -20 or -30 F nights a few nights out of the year in winter, but average around 20 F to 0 F.

Will this guy be able to keep up?

 

[begreen]

Ignore the maximum potential BTU output. The firebox size is more important. There are other factors like firebox shape (N/S loading depth), ease of use, ease of cleaning, durability, etc. that are more important. I will have to go back over this thread to review what you are heating but i would lean toward a 3 cu ft stove unless the stove area is cut off from the other rooms.

The quote installed for the QF4300, hearth pad, chimney, cap, and installation is $7800.

Ouch. The Drolet HT3000, Escape 2100, or a Legend III is sounding more attractive.

 

[EbS-P]

trying to heat 2000+sq ft with less than 3 cu ft on a cold night isn’t fun. Bigger is better. Osborn is decent product from most accounts. Auto start is silly to me. Top down with a torch. Done…..

ACC startup air. Not needed. You have plenty of draft and or a damper.

I’d be choosing between Osborn, regency and Lopi. Tax credit on the lopi might be worth it. But you have to figure in cat cost for the life of the stove. A 250$ cat every 4 years for 20 years…..

Just my thoughts

Evan

 

[marty319]

I have the osburn 3300 with the blower and I am very happy with it.i only burn pine and can still get over night burns.the winters here can be pretty harsh.i burned over 5 cords this past winter.

 

[begreen]

But you have to figure in cat cost for the life of the stove. A 250$ cat every 4 years for 20 years…..

The Lopi Liberty is a non-cat, 3.6 cu ft., but doesn't qualify for the tax credit.

 

[j7art2]

Given the astronomical $7800 quote from the one place, and still not having an estimate from the very first place that came out, I decided to go to the local Amish dealer who is also a professional installer.

Very glad I did.

Osburn 3500 (not the smaller 3300 I was talked into) installed is $5780.10. He has everything in stock and is booked a month out.

He ALSO happens to be a Blaze King dealer, and has a Blaze King Princess in stock as well, but would add $700 to the total.

IIRC, Blaze King has quite a good reputation, but then again, so does Osburn.

Osburn 3500 vs Blaze King Princess? That $700 could go toward fixing my leaking barn roof which was going to be next year's project, but it may be worth investing in the stove if there's a good enough reason to.

I've been here quite some time off and on and have learned a plethora of information from you all, so I highly value your opinions on this.

Thanks!

 

[bholler]

Given the astronomical $7800 quote from the one place, and still not having an estimate from the very first place that came out, I decided to go to the local Amish dealer who is also a professional installer.

Very glad I did.

Osburn 3500 (not the smaller 3300 I was talked into) installed is $5780.10. He has everything in stock and is booked a month out.

He ALSO happens to be a Blaze King dealer, and has a Blaze King Princess in stock as well, but would add $700 to the total.

IIRC, Blaze King has quite a good reputation, but then again, so does Osburn.

Osburn 3500 vs Blaze King Princess? That $700 could go toward fixing my leaking barn roof which was going to be next year's project, but it may be worth investing in the stove if there's a good enough reason to.

I've been here quite some time off and on and have learned a plethora of information from you all, so I highly value your opinions on this.

Thanks!

Just be careful with Amish installers. Atleast around here they are much cheaper for very good reasons. They cut lots of corners. Not saying this guy will. But when someone is that much cheaper than everyone else you should question why

 

[j7art2]

I understand. This guy has been in business for 10 years. He isn't cutting corners, he just isn't marking up 20% on everything.

The Osburn itself was $1000 less than the QF, which is part of it too.

The other place was nickel and diming EVERYTHING. Charging me extra for the pedestal for the stove, charging me extra for the door (seriously) didn't include a blower, the cheapest hearth pad they had was $600 (as opposed to the Amish guy using the $350 one I was going to order online) and astronomical mark up on pipe.

$351 for one 4' section of Duravent double wall insulated galvanized used in the attic was a prime example. I have plenty of this laying around at home, almost 20 feet. The one company refused to use used anything despite it being nearly new.

 

[coaly]

I use the cheaper galvanized pipe outside instead of stainless. The roof flashing is exposed galvanized steel, without rusting issues.

Triple wall is insulated, but not near as well as double wall. The triple wall has a thin insulation wrap around the inner liner. I’ve had the galvanized spacers that hold the pipe sections apart rust away in between the stainless inner and stainless outer shell. Stick with the double wall for a more efficient chimney, and absolutely double wall for an exterior chimney that will have more exposed outside than going through the roof.

 

[j7art2]

He uses double wall insulated galvanized in the house, and double wall insulated stainless outside from my understanding. Duravent.

All 3 of them said the double wall insulated galvanized in the house is standard which I didn't know, one of them refused to use anything used though regardless of condition.

 

[begreen]

Galvanized in the interior space is fine. Stainless should be used for the exterior work. See if you can pick up a hearth pad locally. They are heavy and the shipping costs are high. The Osburn only needs ember protection so a sheet of hemmed sheetmetal would suffice.

 

[bholler]

I generally won't install used pipe either if something goes wrong regardless of who supplied the pipe it my ass on the line.

As far as charging for the parts of the stove that's how some manufacturers sell their stoves. That way they can offer options without retesting each one as a different model.

And make sure the Amish crew is insured. That is one of the main places they save money here. I know if I wasn't paying $15 to $20000 a year between liability and workers comp I could certainly reduce my prices

 

[j7art2]

I generally won't install used pipe either if something goes wrong regardless of who supplied the pipe it my ass on the line.

As far as charging for the parts of the stove that's how some manufacturers sell their stoves. That way they can offer options without retesting each one as a different model.

And make sure the Amish crew is insured. That is one of the main places they save money here. I know if I wasn't paying $15 to $20000 a year between liability and workers comp I could certainly reduce my prices

I will certainly ask. Our Amish deal with the "English" as they call us quite a bit, so I'm hoping they are. They get a lot of business from us.

I frequent the local Amish hardware store quite often because they seem to get deals at prices that don't seem possible at times. I remember buying a pair of brand new in the box Muck boots for $26, and Walmart selling them for close to $100. Same brand, same boot.

Its not like that with everything, but many things. I know we're talking apples to oranges here but that was my first *holy crap I need to shop here more often" moments.

I'm passing by there on my way home from work so I'll stop in to verify.

The BK Princess looks promising. It has a cat which I'm not thrilled with, but they have (had?) a solid reputation. I convinced the wife to consider the credit, which would cost us $700 more up front, but save $1600 long run if we are able to go this route.

This person certainly seems happy with their purchase.

Blaze King Uphoria

First week with Blaze King Princess 32……AMAZING……..I’ve seen people refer to it as an appliance and completely understand as I sit and watch it turn the fire on and off using old bimetallic technology and no electricity. I was hesitant when replacing our ancient but trusted Schrader Fireplace...

www.hearth.com

 

[j7art2]

Good news!

They are fully licensed and fully insured. They will pull the permit for an extra $100, otherwise I am responsible for it.

I checked Google reviews and they're fantastic too. 4.9 stars.

We discussed the tax credit, and he indicated within the last month, the Osburn 3500 now DOES meet the criteria for the 26% after re-testing from the EPA. I need to double check this, but he seemed quite certain. I may email Osburn to verify.

The Osburn 3500 will need replacement fire board and burn tubes eventually, BK will need a replacement cat eventually. Six of one, half dozen of another it looks like.

If you guys had to pick the BK or the Osburn, which would be your preference? Is this BK worth the extra $700?

 

[EbS-P]

Good news!

They are fully licensed and fully insured. They will pull the permit for an extra $100, otherwise I am responsible for it.

I checked Google reviews and they're fantastic too. 4.9 stars.

We discussed the tax credit, and he indicated within the last month, the Osburn 3500 now DOES meet the criteria for the 26% after re-testing from the EPA. I need to double check this, but he seemed quite certain. I may email Osburn to verify.

The Osburn 3500 will need replacement fire board and burn tubes eventually, BK will need a replacement cat eventually. Six of one, half dozen of another it looks like.

If you guys had to pick the BK or the Osburn, which would be your preference? Is this BK worth the extra $700?

If I wanted to heat 100% with wood even in the shoulder season then the BK. If I wanted even heat the BK.

If I wanted max btus during the cold of winter the 3500.

Burn tubes probably won’t be a maintenance item unless repeatedly overfired.

Do you like staring at dancing flames every time you light a fire? Then the 3500.

 

[j7art2]

The $700 saved would probably get me a new splitter. I wasn't sure I was going back to wood heat, so I sold my old one. Wishing I wouldn't have now. I'd be heating shoulder season, but normally do small hot softwood fires to take the chill out and then call it good. If all things are equal on the credit, its even more compelling.

Those flames sure are pretty too.

I'll shoot Osburn an email and get back with you guys. Thanks so much for the input so far.

 

[bholler]

I will certainly ask. Our Amish deal with the "English" as they call us quite a bit, so I'm hoping they are. They get a lot of business from us.

I frequent the local Amish hardware store quite often because they seem to get deals at prices that don't seem possible at times. I remember buying a pair of brand new in the box Muck boots for $26, and Walmart selling them for close to $100. Same brand, same boot.

Its not like that with everything, but many things. I know we're talking apples to oranges here but that was my first *holy crap I need to shop here more often" moments.

I'm passing by there on my way home from work so I'll stop in to verify.

The BK Princess looks promising. It has a cat which I'm not thrilled with, but they have (had?) a solid reputation. I convinced the wife to consider the credit, which would cost us $700 more up front, but save $1600 long run if we are able to go this route.

This person certainly seems happy with their purchase.

Blaze King Uphoria

First week with Blaze King Princess 32……AMAZING……..I’ve seen people refer to it as an appliance and completely understand as I sit and watch it turn the fire on and off using old bimetallic technology and no electricity. I was hesitant when replacing our ancient but trusted Schrader Fireplace...

www.hearth.com

Yeah Amish do allot of business with English here as well. And there are absolutely some crews here that are fantastic at what they do. But others whose work clearly reflects their low price.


Bks are absolutely great stoves. The question is if their low and slow burns will be a good fit for you.

 

[bholler]

Good news!

They are fully licensed and fully insured. They will pull the permit for an extra $100, otherwise I am responsible for it.

I checked Google reviews and they're fantastic too. 4.9 stars.

We discussed the tax credit, and he indicated within the last month, the Osburn 3500 now DOES meet the criteria for the 26% after re-testing from the EPA. I need to double check this, but he seemed quite certain. I may email Osburn to verify.

The Osburn 3500 will need replacement fire board and burn tubes eventually, BK will need a replacement cat eventually. Six of one, half dozen of another it looks like.

If you guys had to pick the BK or the Osburn, which would be your preference? Is this BK worth the extra $700?

Unless you over fire it or hit the baffle with wood the osburn really won't need much more than brick and gaskets occasionally. The bk will need a new cat every 3 years or so. Bk guys like to claim that bks are the only stove that can be used to heat with wood in the shoulder season. That simply isn't true. Yes they are a bit easier to use in milder weather. But many many people heat only with wood and aren't using bks and the princess I am using simply can't keep up in colder weather.


And it's good to hear they are fully licensed and insured.

 

[brenndatomu]

The $700 saved would probably get me a new splitter.

$700 will get you a "new to you" used splitter...maybe...what was $7-800 on sale a few years ago, is now $12-1500, and I have seldom seen sales the last 1-1/2 years or so.

 

[begreen]

We discussed the tax credit, and he indicated within the last month, the Osburn 3500 now DOES meet the criteria for the 26% after re-testing from the EPA. I need to double check this, but he seemed quite certain. I may email Osburn to verify.

I am not seeing this new testing reflected in the EPA database yet. It's still listed at 71% HHV. Ask Osburn for the tax certificate if they verify that there have been new testing results.

 

[BKVP]

It was more or less an argument of plate steel vs cast iron and the benefits and drawbacks of both. After doing a quick search, it sounds like VC is a sh*tshow right now, so I'll notably avoid.

I'm going to get an estimate from another place, and they're a Kuma, Quadrafire, and Hearthstone dealer. Their average cost was actually almost a thousand less than the place that came out today. The QF 4300 looks great at a glance (and will apparently start it own fires at a push of a button), and Kuma and Hearthstone seem to have good offerings at a glance without doing any research, but they're both cat stoves.

I'm going to be doing some digging here to see what some of the best options are out there. In speaking to the wife who does taxes for a living, she's perfectly okay (and would prefer) not getting the tax credit as it's less work and headache on her, so I guess this particular selling point has become a non-issue.

I'd prefer not to deal with a cat anyway to be honest, and I'm not sure there's many (if any) non-cat stoves that meet the standard except for on crib wood. I'm not sure if they're using crib wood just to pass regulations or if they expect people to burn kiln dried lumber in their stoves, but at the very minimum it sounds like I'm going to need to start doing more research; specifically on what to avoid if anything.

Crib fuel standard is 2.0 g/hr. Cordwood is 2.5 g/hr. 66% of current wood stoves and inserts are cordwood tested. However, EPA has rescinded that ATM because of significant questions that remain unanswered. Cordwood tested certificates will not be renewed by EPA. The good news is that the FRM is moving forward. I sit on the steering committee and can update progress periodically.

 

[j7art2]

$700 will get you a "new to you" used splitter...maybe...what was $7-800 on sale a few years ago, is now $12-1500, and I have seldom seen sales the last 1-1/2 years or so.

I figured as much; I wasn't expecting new new. I did snag a Dirty Hand Tools 30 ton at Menards 7-8 years ago on Black Friday for $700, but I didn't expect to find another new at that price. Inflation is hitting hard, and I'm wishing I woulda kept it now. Ah well.

The Harbor Freight 20 Ton is $999, and occasionally they do put out a 20% off anything in the store coupon which would put me close, but I don't need anything special. I've seen lots of Youtube videos of the homemade "post spring" splitters which are intriguing, but I have a feeling that's not going to work all that great trying to split the likes of oak, hickory, or box elder. I've considered building from stuff in the scrap pile, but I hate to waste the time and effort if it isn't gonna work with hard woods.

Video seen here, so people know what I'm talking about. Looks fun, might lose a finger later, idk.

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[j7art2]

Looks like the he was right! EPA database will need an update.