New Water Heater

[pdboilermaker]

Tmonter:

I do not know the codes for natural gas. As mentioned in my original post, I use LP and copper may be used for LP in Indiana and in most states I assume. Look at the "propane and propane acessories" to quote Hank Hill. The small camp stoves, grills, some grill tranks, the heater buddy all use copper

 

[Metal]

You can also use CSST (corrugated stainless steel tubing) to run gas lines.

 

[TMonter]

I do not know the codes for natural gas. As mentioned in my original post, I use LP and copper may be used for LP in Indiana and in most states I assume. Look at the “propane and propane acessories” to quote Hank Hill. The small camp stoves, grills, some grill tranks, the heater buddy all use copper

I realize that but codes are different in many areas so in many cases it's not as easy as just running two more feet of copper. Like I said we need some more details to do an analysis and tell him what his best option is.

 

[Czech]

Just for kicks, I took a look at my NG supply when I got home tonight, it is 1/2" soft copper with flare fittings. I'm guessing it is type L, but don't see it labeled as such. It's labeled every 8' or so with tags that say 2 PSI HIGH PRESSURE NG GAS LINE, DO NOT DISTURB. I agree with TM that we may need more info, often times a few more feet of copper turns into a mess, esp if you have high pressure lines that may need a special regulator to knock it down some like I do.

 

[pdboilermaker]

Installing one of these is a piece of cake, about 2 hours tops. Here is mine installed, plugged in, copper pipe extensions on the existing water lines, copper pipe extensions on the gas line, and less than $50.00 in exhaust. Saves me about $35.00/month in LP @ $1.25/gallon (Currently over $2.00/gallon).

Total cost was about $1200.00 vs $500.00 for the tank type I was looking for ($1200 tankless/$500 50 gallon)=$700 difference between tankless and 50 gallon. $700 difference between tankless and 50 gallon/35 dollars per month saved with LP at @1.25/gallon=20 months payoff to cover difference.

We have 2 adults and 4 kids (ages 9-17) in the house that shower, need dishes washed daily, and need cloths washed daily.

If you install a new tank type water heater, I am surprised that you drive a car instead of riding a horse. All change need not be feared, some change should be embraced.

 

[TMonter]

If you install a new tank type water heater, I am surprised that you drive a car instead of riding a horse. All change need not be feared, some change should be embraced.

As previously stated, not all people can save money with a tankless type heater. Yours saves so much because you're on a relatively expensive fuel and you're high use.

Lets take me (Myself, My Wife and two kids):

I use average 29 Therms of gas per month with a price of $1.01 per therm

My current tank unit is 0.65 efficiency

This means I purchase 2.9 Million Btu of gas but get 1,885,000 btu out of the gas

A tankless has an efficiency of 90% (actually 85% but there are no standby losses).

If I were to use a tankless I would need to purchase

1,885,000/0.90 = 2,094,444 btu of gas which is ~21 Therms

29-21 = 8*$1.01 = $8.08 per month

For a tankless to pay back lets look at price:

Tank Unit $450.00 no new hardware required (I did add a flex and a strap for safety but it wasn't required).

Tankless Unit $1100 for the unit, $150.00 for venting Kit, $75.00 for gas line and accessories, $80 for new copper + solder + new torch to relocate water lines, $75.00 misc new fittings.

Total cost $1480 - 450 = $1030 more

Yearly savings 8.08*12 = $96.96, payback term = 1030/96.96 = 10.62 Years

I didn't know if I would be in this house for 10 years hence purchasing a tankless unit was a waste of money, plus I would have had to buy it on credit.

At the time the home depot credit card was 29% interest and I figured the extra $1030 would take me about a year to pay off. Not a good deal. Even if purchased on a regular credit card at 14% interest this is an additional $140 which delays payback to basically 12 years.

If I invested that modest $1030 in a solid mutual fund in 10 years I would have $2274.28.

I'll let you be the judge of the conclusion.

 

[wallis54806]

I did a similar, though not as extensive, comparison last year as TMonter did. My payback was even longer as I only use about $9.00 per month to heat water with natural gas. As for unlimited hot water I have found that our direct vent 40 gal. water heater can keep up with our low flow showerhead almost indefinatly.

 

[downeast]

Go for the tankless water heater. We originally had a Bosch/Aqua Star ( reliability problems) , then a Rinnai.
Check out the comments/reviews on both online,and ask owners. Restaurants use Rinnai for code required hot water.
Yes, you will have a longer amortization payback, but other factors are more important to us.

The unlimited hot water anytime for consecutive running of appliances is a joy ( unit must be sized correctly). We can take a shower, do a wash, use the dishwasher at the same time with no loss of hot water. Big problem with the tankless is that we tend to stay in the shower longer after a workout or working the woodlot.

Tank heaters take up at least 4x the space of tankless heaters.

No useless heating of water in storage 24/7 when it is not being used.

Tankless controls give you temperature flexibility at any time.

The technology ( now improved with circuit boards ) has been around in Europe and Japan for over a generation. On demand water heaters used to be installed "in your face" in Norweigian showers; kind of fun to see the gas pop on a few inches from your nose. Brit showers needed shillings for a few minute shower.

The Rinnai has been in use for two years now without any problems. The pics above show the Rinnai installed well.

 

[downeast]

One other thing: I installed a flush kit on the Rinnai called an Isolator. Boilermaker from Kokomo did not have it. The Isolator connectors are to flush the copper tubes in the heater with vinegar about once a year for deposits such as calcium from your water. Simple install. The flush with a drill pump takes a few minutes.