New-to-me Firelight issues

[Woody Stover]

it really doesn’t look that bad in the photo.

I'm a bit slow on the uptake..where is the pic?

 

[rayfield]

In fact in hex keys and bits, metric is all I own -- or can find at the moment at any rate; 8mm (size of the Jotul key, correct?) doesn't seat, 7mm rattles around. Hardly seems possible someone replaced the original bolt with a SAE bolt, does it? But if there's an English equivalent to say, 7.8mm I'll head to Auto Zone and buy one, since I borrowed my buddy's impact wrench (meant to say pneumatic) (considering I'm a technical writer you think I'd express myself more articulately).

I was under the impression those extractors were for round head bolts/screws -- granted not this application. At any rate I'm not there yet, and none of the set I got at the bigbox yesterday are large enough anyway.

Yeah, I meant pneumatic impact. The only electric o e I’ve ever used is my 18V Bosch, and it doesn’t gmhave enough torque for a bolt like this. Also, I think those extractors you posted are only for hex bits and hex head bolts and screws, not socket head.

I’m really surprised you can’t get a hex key into your bolt, it really doesn’t look that bad in the photo. What’s the issue, there? You know it’s metric, right?

 

[begreen]

Woodmans says the screw uses a 5/16" Allen wrench.

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[rayfield]

Thanks for the confirmation, that cleared up some confusion.

This morning I brought back a 5/16" impact driver; just now tried with with the i.w. -- afraid now she really is stripped. Maybe the wear on the driver can provide a clue?

Am actually kind of surprised it got in that far, because it never gave me that solid feeling -- in fact I had tried earlier today with a breaker bar, and that didn't seem to grab it either, which leads me to believe it was pretty close to stripped to begin with. I'm sure his house has had three or four different owners since this stove was new; while most everything has been pretty well maintained, I've also been told there were renters who didn't really g.a.s.

Woodmans says the screw uses a 5/16" Allen wrench.

Replacement stove parts | Woodman's Parts Plus | Stove Gas Wood Stove Parts

Woodman's Parts Plus offers over 20,000 in stock parts for your wood, coal, gas, oil or pellet unit, as well as barbecues and outdoor power equipment. Over 400 old and current manufacturers, with unique parts and patterns.

www.woodmanspartsplus.com

 

[begreen]

Might be faster to drill it out and retap it.

 

[Ashful]

Hah... I typed this early this morning, but never hit "post". Here it is, too late, anyway.

I'm a bit slow on the uptake..where is the pic?

post #28 in Ray’s other thread.

In fact in hex keys and bits, metric is all I own -- or can find at the moment at any rate; 8mm (size of the Jotul key, correct?) doesn't seat, 7mm rattles around. Hardly seems possible someone replaced the original bolt with a SAE bolt, does it? But if there's an English equivalent to say, 7.8mm I'll head to Auto Zone and buy one, since I borrowed my buddy's impact wrench (meant to say pneumatic) (considering I'm a technical writer you think I'd express myself more articulately).

I was under the impression those extractors were for round head bolts/screws -- granted not this application. At any rate I'm not there yet, and none of the set I got at the bigbox yesterday are large enough anyway.

5/16” would be 7.9mm, although being made in Norway, I'm surprised they're using SAE.

I see begreen posted Jotul states 5/16" wrench, but I suspect that's just someone's attempt at a metric conversion for us inch-folk. Perhaps that's why it's jammed and stripped, someone put a 3/8-16 SHCS (takes 5/16" wrench) in the hole tapped for a M10x1.5 (takes 8mm wrench).

Now that it's stripped, it might be time to grab a left-hand drill bit and go at it. The OEM bolt is black oxide, which is going to be hard, so a coated bit is your friend. If the bolt is just frozen with rust and not truly buggered and stripped, the left-hand drilling will often spin the bolt out before you even get thru it. If not, now you have a new hole to drill to tapping diameter.

A 3/8-16" takes a 5/16" drill for tapping, and the M10 takes an 8.7mm drill (or bit "R"), which is just slightly larger than 5/16". Since left-hand bits are usually sold in sets of fractional size, I'd be using a 5/16" left-hand bit either way. Then you can just tap 3/8"-16 if you don't mind bastardizing the stove with an English thread, or re-drill for a proper M10x1.25 tap.

Welcome to the Firelight 12. I hope you like working on stoves!

 

[Mech e]

Instead of a left hand bit, you could also try an easy out.

 

[rayfield]

Might be faster to drill it out and retap it.

Hah... I typed this early this morning, but never hit "post". Here it is, too late, anyway.


post #28 in Ray’s other thread.


5/16” would be 7.9mm, although being made in Norway, I'm surprised they're using SAE.

I see begreen posted Jotul states 5/16" wrench, but I suspect that's just someone's attempt at a metric conversion for us inch-folk. Perhaps that's why it's jammed and stripped, someone put a 3/8-16 SHCS (takes 5/16" wrench) in the hole tapped for a M10x1.5 (takes 8mm wrench).

Now that it's stripped, it might be time to grab a left-hand drill bit and go at it. The OEM bolt is black oxide, which is going to be hard, so a coated bit is your friend. If the bolt is just frozen with rust and not truly buggered and stripped, the left-hand drilling will often spin the bolt out before you even get thru it. If not, now you have a new hole to drill to tapping diameter.

A 3/8-16" takes a 5/16" drill for tapping, and the M10 takes an 8.7mm drill (or bit "R"), which is just slightly larger than 5/16". Since left-hand bits are usually sold in sets of fractional size, I'd be using a 5/16" left-hand bit either way. Then you can just tap 3/8"-16 if you don't mind bastardizing the stove with an English thread, or re-drill for a proper M10x1.25 tap.

Welcome to the Firelight 12. I hope you like working on stoves!

Instead of a left hand bit, you could also try an easy out.

Yeah, definitely not my area of expertise, under ordinary circumstances it would be time to hand over to a professional, but in the present circumstances, and since I'd like to see if I can get a few more years out of the stove, looks like it's my job. I'll cross my fingers a left-hand drill bit pulls out the bolt.

begreen or Ashful -- would you mind pointing me to the best bit for the job? Closest I came is this

https://www.napaonline.com/en/search?text=left%2Bhand%2Bdrill%2Bbits&q=N%3D2500055%2B2605507%2B2807604%2B106484200%2B106487600%26Nty%3D1%26Ns%3DP_PCCSeq%7Casc%7C%7CP_MPCCDisplaySeq%7Casc%26Score%3D0.9&referer=PLP&leftNav=leftNav

 

[Mech e]

Start with a smaller left hand bit. If that does not budge it, have one of these ready to try:

(broken link removed)

If that doesn't work, drill it out to the tap size like Ashful said and have a tap ready to go.

 

[Ashful]

So, I was just thinking thru this problem, and realized there's a complicating factor, here. I believe that delicate and insanely expensive refractory chamber has no corresponding hole behind that fastener. I'm wondering if someone else can confirm. If that's the case, the bolt likely pushes into it a bit, but does not penetrate. This creates two potential issues:

1. Drilling and tapping might result in accidentally punching thru the refractory during either operation, although this could be mitigated with a few simple techniques.

2. Drilling the fastener out will result in any part of the fastener currently penetrating the plate to remain trapped back there, no way to remove it, although you could probably just slide it down out of the way of the new fastener.

In this case, as much as I hate the things, Mech-e's suggestion of an easy-out is probably the best next step. These things more often break than work, in fact I just broke one this past weekend, but sometimes they're the least destructive thing to try.

The OEM bolt is a hardened black-oxide socket-head cap screw, and assuming that's what's still here, you're going to want a cobalt bit. So, you're likely buying a bit anyway (unless you happen to already have a full set of coated bits), and so you might as well go lefty. With any luck, you may spin the fastener loose before even reaching for the easy out.

I would go with McMaster-Carr extractor item 2566A15, and use McMaster-Carr drill 3474A16. I've never tried this type of extractor, but it has to be better than the standard easy-outs I normally use. Also, note the left-hand bit I'm calling out is 1/64" larger than the recommended pilot hole for this extractor, since lefty drills don't generally come in the spec'd 13/64" pilot size for this extractor. I expect this is fine, as this extractor is spec'd for use with 1/8" pipe (.269" to .312" ID). You may want to check that with McMaster, you could always left-drill it to 3/16" and then right-chase it with the spec'd 13/64", but I wouldn't think that should be necessary.

If all that fails, there are two ways to go at it from there:

1. Drill and tap very cautiously in-place. This might mean installing a stop collar on the bit, so you can work 1/8" at a time, and not worry about punching completely thru the refractory when you do your tap drill. Then slide the remaining tip of the old bolt aside (it would be trapped between back plate and refractory), and start tapping. Start the job with a plug tap, and finishing it with a bottom tap (or hand-grind your plug tap to make a poor-man's bottom tap).

2. Remove the entire fireback, so you can drill that bolt without concern. This means you'll be doing a lot of gasket work for the re-install, but you'll know you have a good stove when you're all done.

Again, that OEM bolt is black oxide, so you're going to want a coated bit for the drilling. I'd use a 5/16” cobalt steel lefty bit (McMaster-Carr 3474A21), and then chase that with a letter "R" bit (or 8.5mm), and tap it M10x1.5mm. If you want to save some cost and effort, you could simply tap 3/8-16 right after the initial 5/16" drill. I can provide those part numbers, if you end up going that route, but I'd be apt to try the screw extractor mentioned above, first.

 

[rayfield]

So, I was just thinking thru this problem, and realized there's a complicating factor, here. I believe that delicate and insanely expensive refractory chamber has no corresponding hole behind that fastener. I'm wondering if someone else can confirm. If that's the case, the bolt likely pushes into it a bit, but does not penetrate. This creates two potential issues:

1. Drilling and tapping might result in accidentally punching thru the refractory during either operation, although this could be mitigated with a few simple techniques.

2. Drilling the fastener out will result in any part of the fastener currently penetrating the plate to remain trapped back there, no way to remove it, although you could probably just slide it down out of the way of the new fastener.

In this case, as much as I hate the things, Mech-e's suggestion of an easy-out is probably the best next step. These things more often break than work, in fact I just broke one this past weekend, but sometimes they're the least destructive thing to try.

The OEM bolt is a hardened black-oxide socket-head cap screw, and assuming that's what's still here, you're going to want a cobalt bit. So, you're likely buying a bit anyway (unless you happen to already have a full set of coated bits), and so you might as well go lefty. With any luck, you may spin the fastener loose before even reaching for the easy out.

I would go with McMaster-Carr extractor item 2566A15, and use McMaster-Carr drill 3474A16. I've never tried this type of extractor, but it has to be better than the standard easy-outs I normally use. Also, note the left-hand bit I'm calling out is 1/64" larger than the recommended pilot hole for this extractor, since lefty drills don't generally come in the spec'd 13/64" pilot size for this extractor. I expect this is fine, as this extractor is spec'd for use with 1/8" pipe (.269" to .312" ID). You may want to check that with McMaster, you could always left-drill it to 3/16" and then right-chase it with the spec'd 13/64", but I wouldn't think that should be necessary.

If all that fails, there are two ways to go at it from there:

1. Drill and tap very cautiously in-place. This might mean installing a stop collar on the bit, so you can work 1/8" at a time, and not worry about punching completely thru the refractory when you do your tap drill. Then slide the remaining tip of the old bolt aside (it would be trapped between back plate and refractory), and start tapping. Start the job with a plug tap, and finishing it with a bottom tap (or hand-grind your plug tap to make a poor-man's bottom tap).

2. Remove the entire fireback, so you can drill that bolt without concern. This means you'll be doing a lot of gasket work for the re-install, but you'll know you have a good stove when you're all done.

Again, that OEM bolt is black oxide, so you're going to want a coated bit for the drilling. I'd use a 5/16” cobalt steel lefty bit (McMaster-Carr 3474A21), and then chase that with a letter "R" bit (or 8.5mm), and tap it M10x1.5mm. If you want to save some cost and effort, you could simply tap 3/8-16 right after the initial 5/16" drill. I can provide those part numbers, if you end up going that route, but I'd be apt to try the screw extractor mentioned above, first.

Ordered those two bits yesterday, with luck they'll arrived by the end of the week. Will hope they will work to remove it, 'cause I'm really not sure I'm up to tapping... but we'll see. Thanks as ever.

 

[rayfield]

Going to pick up a drill, since I'm assuming my B&D cordless won't do -- will this one have enough torque/horsepower to do the job?

(broken link removed)

 

[rayfield]

Have drilled (the left bit counterclockwise) altogether around ten minutes now, with not much to show for it. I'll keep at it if need be. A couple of buddies are suggesting drilling a smaller pilot hole might help things along, but I'm not convinced.

 

[Ashful]

Yeah, black oxide bolts are hard. The cobalt bit should cut, but it takes a lot of force and slower speed to not overheat and dull your bit. I’m always reminded how much force it takes to drill hard steel when transitioning from the drill press, where it’s quite easy to put a lot of force on the quill, to a hand drill.

Yes, a smaller bit will be a lot easier, as it requires less force. It’s a force divided by area (psi) thing, so the same amount of force onto the bit will have much more effect on a smaller bit. But at more than $10 per bit for coated bits, I was trying to keep you from buying multiples.

Sorry I never replied about the hand drill, I started typing one, but got interrupted before sending. I have several corded drills, but other than the hammer drills I use for drilling masonry, their use has been reduced almost entirely to specialty woodworking tasks (eg. Kreg pocket holes) or sweeping my chimney with the SootEater. If I were not doing woodworking, I think I’d put a corded high speed drill lower on my list of drills to buy, for the average DIY homeowner:

1. Good cordless drill > 15 volts (I like my Bouch 18V right now, but there are many good options)
2. Impact driver (I bought a Bosch 18V, so I got a second charger and extra pair of batteries compatible with my drill)
3. Corded 1/2” or 5/8” hammer drill. I suppose this could be a rental tool for most folks, but I’ve used mine (Milwaukee) enough that I’m glad I own it.
4. Corded 3/8” high speed drill (like the one you showed above), good for when you need to drill more holes in wood than your cordless battery likes

Years ago, I’d have also put a 1/2” corded gear drill with T-handle for drilling steel on that list, but nowadays almost all of the hammer drills can be switched over to non-hammer mode, and can serve the purpose of a big gear drill for steel, if you don’t mind carrying the extra weight of a hammer drill.

For you, today, I’d be using your cordless on its low-speed setting. Keep some oil on the bit, to keep it cool. If you don’t already know, YouTube “how to drill steel”.

 

[rayfield]

The pilot bit I got at Napa for three bucks did the trick, and the cordless at low speed managed it. I got fairly deep in with the left-handed bit -- not sure exactly how far, and I probably should have stopped to check the depth before trying the extractor but I figured if I was in deep enough for the extractor to get in, that would be good enough. Once again, however, was handicapped by the difficulty of access: I'm afraid that my attempts to twist the extractor -- first with the vise grip, then with a big crescent wrench -- managed to bend the extractor & bolt head up. I'm less concerned with snapping off the bolt head than deforming the threads. (OTOH maybe it's just looking more inevitable I'm going to have to just drill out the bolt, in which case at least I've got a pilot hole for the purpose.)



What I need is to find some kind of wrench small enough to grab hold of the extractor perfectly perpendicular. But between the back plate and the lip at the top there's not much room.



Wish there was some kind of socket for what appears to be a 5/16" square back end to the extractor, for one thing I borrowed a big breaker bar that would turn it in a second.

 

[rayfield]

A buddy suggests this -- any reason I should not use?

https://www.walmart.com/ip/3-8-Drive-x-5-16-Square-Female-Pipe-Plug-Socket/26598469

 

[Ashful]

That could work, if it’s the right size. The extractor is actually meant to be held in a tap handle:

Micro Trader M3-M12 Capacity Handle Adjustable Tap Reamer Tapping Wrench Tool Amazon product ASIN B077M6XPVL
Note this style is less common than t-handle style, but offers more torque. Just check the size, each handle only fits a range of taps or extractors.

 

[Woody Stover]

I would try heating the surrounding area with a mapp gas torch, to try to get the hole to expand away from the bolt threads. Might be a danger of overheating the cast iron..I doubt it but I don't know.
Then soak the heck out of it with Permatex Fast Break or other penetrant, for a few days, re-moistening it often.
While you soak it, and before you try to remove it, tap the bolt with a punch and hammer to try to break the threads loose. Again, be careful..you could crack the cast iron if you pound too hard..

 

[rayfield]

That could work, if it’s the right size. The extractor is actually meant to be held in a tap handle:

Micro Trader M3-M12 Capacity Handle Adjustable Tap Reamer Tapping Wrench Tool Amazon product ASIN B077M6XPVL
Note this style is less common than t-handle style, but offers more torque. Just check the size, each handle only fits a range of taps or extractors.

On the way, hoping the other arrives tomorrow and works.

I would try heating the surrounding area with a mapp gas torch, to try to get the hole to expand away from the bolt threads. Might be a danger of overheating the cast iron..I doubt it but I don't know.
Then soak the heck out of it with Permatex Fast Break or other penetrant, for a few days, re-moistening it often.
While you soak it, and before you try to remove it, tap the bolt with a punch and hammer to try to break the threads loose. Again, be careful..you could crack the cast iron if you pound too hard..

Must be about half a can of PB Blaster in there already, I douse it more regularly than I water the houseplants. Problem with the torch, as I learned last week, is it ignites the penetrant, which mostly worries me because the flames are right by the catalytic element, which there's a slim chance might still be salvagable.

 

[webby3650]

With the bypass open it won’t hurt that cat. Even if it’s intact, I doubt it’s still alive. I’ve had to use a torch anytime I remove a fireback in a 12.

 

[rayfield]

With the bypass open it won’t hurt that cat. Even if it’s intact, I doubt it’s still alive. I’ve had to use a torch anytime I remove a fireback in a 12.

so then, throw some baking soda on it to put it out?

 

[Ashful]

I’ve had to use a torch anytime I remove a fireback in a 12.

webby is a stove pro, he does this for a living. But on my own three Firelight 12's, two of which came from the same prior owner and the third was purchased on ebay, I had no trouble removing that bolt on any of them. You're supposed to remove that bolt at LEAST once per year for proper cleaning, and I'm sure there are some who don't, but I'm surprised to hear you need a torch every time. You sure that wasn't a typo, webby?

 

[rayfield]

Well, can't say I'm surprised, if my experience is at all pertinent -- I'm someone who generally does a pretty decent job of reading manuals and performing maintenance: the house's previous owner did a good job of keeping receipts, and in this case, the last chimney sweep had indicated the stove had been inspected several months before I took possession of the house in September '18. So impressed was I by the paperwork that when I started having trouble with the stove, I called in the same company. This guy -- no spring chicken, appeared to be in his late 50s at least -- 1) didn't know what the footpedal was for, 2) couldn't explain the purpose/function of the catalyst, and 3) is the one who suggested I keep the ash tray door open to help light it.

 

[Ashful]

I had a similar experience in the purchase of my current house. The prior owners spared no expense in expanding and maintaining this house, but almost invariably chose the worst possible contractor with which to spend their money, in so many areas.

 

[rayfield]

Still waiting on wrench(es) -- as long as the dream of getting this bolt out is still alive, might as well get ahead of myself about replacement parts: Woodsmans shows $88 for the rear burnplate, 240 for the replacement cat. Is that basically the only game in town? ISTR seeing a fair amount of back-and-forth on cats in the forums here, I'm really curious about the current best source for replacements.

Also, is it necessary for me to replace the cracked rear burnplate at this point if I am just testing out the stove? In a way I'd just as soon see if the unit is functional before paying for another part; if it's not, bad enough I've laid out for a cat I won't be able to return.