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It takes a certain temperature for CO to ignite. Generally all of the other volatiles in the wood burn at lower temps so if you burn the CO everything else is long gone. If the firebox temp is less than the minimum, the CO goes right up the stack. Even if that minimum temperature is met there has to be enough turbulence for the CO molecules to directly interact with oxygen (close is not good enough they need to touch). Cold air coming in cools down the temps so preheating it keeps the temps up. That usually means a hot fast fire to get full combustion. All a cat does is reduce the ignition temperature of the volatile gases and the intermediate combustion gas CO. Once the reaction happens there is a blend of hot gasses that have to interact with heat exchangers to transfer some hat sink like a room, a block of mass or tank of water. Ideally this heat exchange is done through a series of heat exchangers with low mass. If its a clean burn there is no creosote but there is water vapor mostly from the water in the wood and some trivial amount formed in the combustion process. If that vapor is condensed there is a bit more energy to be grabbed (1000 btus per pound of water that runs through the stove). The device to do that is called a condensing heat exchanger. If there is low temp demand for warm water the stack temps can be brought down to very low temps to the point where this a fan needed to get good dispersion out of the stack. During start up and shut down there can be corrosive gases that make it past full combustion and they in combination with water vapor can make conditions acidic so the heat exchanger is usually made out of stainless and has fairly open clearances and a way of cleaning it.

Is there a point at which NOx is formed in wood combustion in high enough concentrations to require mitigation?

As you've stated the obvious answer for clean wood combustion is to get the gases hot enough (I believe I've read 1600F is sufficient) with enough excess oxygen to progress the reaction to completion, but does this eventually produce NOx like an internal combustion engine does?

If it does I would imagine mitigation of the NOx becomes difficult, gasoline engines have the advantage of constantly cycling between lean and rich combustion and by using a 3-way catalytic converter effectively convert NOx and the unburnt hydrocarbons and residuals to nothing more than N2, H20 and CO2. I would think wood combustion would be more like that of a diesel engine, which is always oxygen rich, removing the simple 3-way cat as a mitigation method, which then leads toward more complex systems like Urea and an SCR which is used on the current generation of diesel engines.
 
Darn someone asked the NOx question;). Note NOx is just a short version for multiple nitrogen compounds, thus the "x" There is fuel bound NOx and thermal NOx. A good hot fast burn that minimizes NOx does cause an increase in NOx. If I was tuning a big biomass boiler with NOx limits I would need to deal with it but small sources are currently exempt. There are two types of NOx precursors, fuel bound and thermal. There is minimal nitrogen compounds in biomass fuel most of it is mixed in with combustion air. So fuel bound really does not factor in. Thermal is stickier, if the combustion zone is very hot, the nitrogen in the air starts to "burn" from N2 to NOx. It would be rare for wood stove but I think the Jetstream type units did produce some. The trick with big biomass boiler similar to oil or coal boiler is the mess with the combustion zone by lengthening it out so the the peak temps stay low but for a longer time. The general term is Low NOx burners for liquid fuels and even coal boilers use the term. On a biomass boiler, messing around with where the air gets introduced extends the combustion zone that is hot enough to burn CO farther up the boiler while keeping peak flame temp lower. If that does not work ammonia can be sprayed in at a certain temp above the combustion zone to convert the NOx back to Nitrogen. Its moderately effective but very dependent on operation of the boiler. If very strict limits are required (Mass used to require advanced NOx control on biomass power generators until they decided that biomass was bad fro power plants) then the boiler has to be equipped with Selective Catalytic Reduction catalyst. Within a certain range of temps if ammonia or urea is mixed into the flue gas upstream of the catalyst, the NOx is then converted to ammonia. They work really well but its a proverbial cork in the tailpipe and expensive to install and run due to the increased draft lost. If the controls are off a bit and they overdose the ammonia there is the distinct odor or cat urine that settles down in the surroundings. We put one on power boiler and I could smell cat p*ss on occasion when driving to plant. The regulators politely call it "ammonia slip".

Note the same setup is used for diesel trucks as diesel burn hotter and generate thermal NOx plus there is plenty of nitrogen in the fuel. The DEF blue liquid the drivers have to fill up on is Urea which thermally decomposes to ammonia.

I only need to remember this stuff for another year or so and then I will be retired;)
 
Or more practically with a cast iron jacket on a steel stove. That allows the stove to heat up quickly and the cast iron jacket to soak up heat over time.


This also allows some convection for immediate stove love.
 
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Since it isnt too hard to do a heat loss calc, I can see where it would be possible to calculate the exact stove needed for the job. We need a firebox that can hold x lbs of wood. We need x lbs of thermal mass to be able to radiate the correct btus for 12 hours. We need to order a firebox and so many mass plates. Assemble on site.
 
Haven’t read this entire thread and probably won’t, but I wanted to comment.

If they automate controls, then to me they aren’t really a stove anymore. Not only that, but I hope they don’t go in that direction because most times controls like those on pellet stoves often go bad and cost a fortune to repair.

Sort of like modern trucks. Build me a truck from the late 60’s to the late 70’s, maybe mid 80’s, without all the electric windows and gadgets to go out, put a modern engine and drivetrain in it and modern suspension, but leave some of the old appeal.

If they put mechanical thermostats on most all stoves next I think it would be a great improvement. BK type stat leaves a stove to be a stove still. Just one man’s opinion.
 
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I think its a matter of a persons lifestyle. Sometimes I don't mind sitting in front of the stove, and checking on it a few times a day. Other times I'm busy or at work, so the stove gets turned right down to ensure it doesn't overfire with the chance of it smoldering and sending smoke out the stack, or it doesn't get used at all.

It would be really cool to have an automated stove that was loaded, lit, and then the owner walks away. I know I would like that sometimes, especially if it had a smartphone app so I could control the output remotely, and then sent a notification when it was time to reload.

Reliability could be ensured by the proper design of components, it blows me away at the number of threads on here where pellet stoves need new boards/controllers.
 
Darn someone asked the NOx question;). Note NOx is just a short version for multiple nitrogen compounds, thus the "x" There is fuel bound NOx and thermal NOx. A good hot fast burn that minimizes NOx does cause an increase in NOx. If I was tuning a big biomass boiler with NOx limits I would need to deal with it but small sources are currently exempt. There are two types of NOx precursors, fuel bound and thermal. There is minimal nitrogen compounds in biomass fuel most of it is mixed in with combustion air. So fuel bound really does not factor in. Thermal is stickier, if the combustion zone is very hot, the nitrogen in the air starts to "burn" from N2 to NOx. It would be rare for wood stove but I think the Jetstream type units did produce some. The trick with big biomass boiler similar to oil or coal boiler is the mess with the combustion zone by lengthening it out so the the peak temps stay low but for a longer time. The general term is Low NOx burners for liquid fuels and even coal boilers use the term. On a biomass boiler, messing around with where the air gets introduced extends the combustion zone that is hot enough to burn CO farther up the boiler while keeping peak flame temp lower. If that does not work ammonia can be sprayed in at a certain temp above the combustion zone to convert the NOx back to Nitrogen. Its moderately effective but very dependent on operation of the boiler. If very strict limits are required (Mass used to require advanced NOx control on biomass power generators until they decided that biomass was bad fro power plants) then the boiler has to be equipped with Selective Catalytic Reduction catalyst. Within a certain range of temps if ammonia or urea is mixed into the flue gas upstream of the catalyst, the NOx is then converted to ammonia. They work really well but its a proverbial cork in the tailpipe and expensive to install and run due to the increased draft lost. If the controls are off a bit and they overdose the ammonia there is the distinct odor or cat urine that settles down in the surroundings. We put one on power boiler and I could smell cat p*ss on occasion when driving to plant. The regulators politely call it "ammonia slip".

Note the same setup is used for diesel trucks as diesel burn hotter and generate thermal NOx plus there is plenty of nitrogen in the fuel. The DEF blue liquid the drivers have to fill up on is Urea which thermally decomposes to ammonia.

I only need to remember this stuff for another year or so and then I will be retired;)

So I guess if NOx ever was regulated for wood stoves it would probably be better to go down the road of catalytic units to reduce combustion temps. Which I guess opens up another issue with NOx, if a wood stove ever got to the point of having a condensing heat exchanger NOx is probably the last thing you'd want to be producing, the nitric acid produced in the water vapor would be hard on components.
 
The beauty of a BK style mechanically dialed in (manually by hand) and bi -metallic operated regulator compared to computer or phone app controlled regulator is this:

1. Zero chance of someone hacking it, this burning your house down.

2. Zero chance of over-fire once set for to low burn.

3. You turn the stove up to “catch” the wood on fire and allowing temp to increase and “burn off” all the wood. Then you set it to a much lower burn rate manually and the bi/metallic runs the stove maintaining a proper stove:house temperature at all times.

4. Should the bi-metallic stat ever fail it is designed to shut the stove down, or in BK’s case run off the “hole”. That is, it only allows a very small amount of air in to the fire.

I totally understand wanting to control the fire via a phone app though. Me, I’d simply rather monitor temps via phone app myself and that can be done already.

The beauty of the bi/metallic is its simplicity and safety. It really doesn’t get any safer to run or any more simple. It offers real piece-of-mind.

A fire started in the home and run by a computer board and/or phone app is complicating it more than is necessary. The only time there are temp swings is when you are there reloading. The rest of the time it maintains temperature itself and is trouble and worry free.

I don’t want to have to worry about some hacker gaining control over a fire in my stove in my house.

So to me...where should the next step go? Bi -metallic thermostats to run stoves. I love mine and there’s no chance I’d ever want to worry about a hacker burning my house down by melting my stove while I am away from home and I certainly wouldn’t want to pay for controllers going faulty. Harmon pellet stove boards cost a fortune.

Reliable heat is just that, reliable. Either manually control the stove, or control it by use of bi-metallics being offered on more stoves. I really think if more people could experience their use then they would understand.

I do love gadgets though. Even those with phone apps.
 
The beauty of a BK style mechanically dialed in (manually by hand) and bi -metallic operated regulator compared to computer or phone app controlled regulator is this:

1. Zero chance of someone hacking it, this burning your house down.

2. Zero chance of over-fire once set for to low burn.

3. You turn the stove up to “catch” the wood on fire and allowing temp to increase and “burn off” all the wood. Then you set it to a much lower burn rate manually and the bi/metallic runs the stove maintaining a proper stove:house temperature at all times.

4. Should the bi-metallic stat ever fail it is designed to shut the stove down, or in BK’s case run off the “hole”. That is, it only allows a very small amount of air in to the fire.

I totally understand wanting to control the fire via a phone app though. Me, I’d simply rather monitor temps via phone app myself and that can be done already.

The beauty of the bi/metallic is its simplicity and safety. It really doesn’t get any safer to run or any more simple. It offers real piece-of-mind.

A fire started in the home and run by a computer board and/or phone app is complicating it more than is necessary. The only time there are temp swings is when you are there reloading. The rest of the time it maintains temperature itself and is trouble and worry free.

I don’t want to have to worry about some hacker gaining control over a fire in my stove in my house.

So to me...where should the next step go? Bi -metallic thermostats to run stoves. I love mine and there’s no chance I’d ever want to worry about a hacker burning my house down by melting my stove while I am away from home and I certainly wouldn’t want to pay for controllers going faulty. Harmon pellet stove boards cost a fortune.

Reliable heat is just that, reliable. Either manually control the stove, or control it by use of bi-metallics being offered on more stoves. I really think if more people could experience their use then they would understand.

I do love gadgets though. Even those with phone apps.
I think you worry way to much. Lol.

I do agree personally I don't want complicated electronics on my stove but I am sure we will see more of it. But I can guarantee they will all have mechanical overrides and multiple layers of fail safe shutdowns.

As far as bimetallic controls they aren't all they are cracked up to be. They don't really increase efficiency on their own at all.
 
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I think the Wittus Twinfire is probably the most efficient freestanding stove design without getting into automation or heating up some form of thermal mass.
It's the most radiant heater that I have experienced. When the afterburn kicks in, the heat coming off the front of the stove is intense.
 
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It's the most radiant heater that I have experienced. When the afterburn kicks in, the heat coming off the front of the stove is intense.
It's a neat stove, but definitely a stove used to heat a single room while in use. For some reason I thought it was a "water stove" and could heat thermal storage.
 
My guess is the next step us capturing the heat from a fast, hot burn and slowly giving it off via thermal mass. Maybe they don't give us controls anymore. It seems to me that the weak point in the operation is the operator, whether its wet wood, choking to a smouldering hunk of charcoal, etc. If there was 1 or 2 thousand lbs of mass to absorb the heat, and we could load up for a full day, we may be quite happy with a light it and forget it stove.

You've described exactly the rocket mass heater: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_mass_heater
I've spent some time reading about them, but never took the leap to install one. There's a "homemade" aesthetic to them that wouldn't really fit my house, as each one is custom built onsite.
Properly built, they are much more efficient than a woodstove; I've seen the exhaust temps just above 100C which is far cooler than wood stove exhaust even in a high-efficiency catalytic stove.
 
You've described exactly the rocket mass heater: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_mass_heater
I've spent some time reading about them, but never took the leap to install one. There's a "homemade" aesthetic to them that wouldn't really fit my house, as each one is custom built onsite.
Properly built, they are much more efficient than a woodstove; I've seen the exhaust temps just above 100C which is far cooler than wood stove exhaust even in a high-efficiency catalytic stove.
I think there is definitely some value in rocketmass heater design. The problem is the tiny firebox that needs lots of feeding for the time it takes to charge the thermal mass. I personally have no interest in sitting there feeding kindling into a stove for an hour a couple times a day.

And most of the claims of incredible efficency gains come from one group who will not provide their data or even say what stoves they are comparing against
 
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I think there is definitely some value in rocketmass heater design. The problem is the tiny firebox that needs lots of feeding for the time it takes to charge the thermal mass. I personally have no interest in sitting there feeding kindling into a stove for an hour a couple times a day.

And most of the claims of incredible efficency gains come from one group who will not provide their data or even say what stoves they are comparing against

there is a side-shoot of that group in the Netherlands, led by Peter van de Berg working on rocket mass heaters.


https://donkey32.proboards.com/

He's getting the burn tube over 1200 C which as peakbagger pointed out is the key to complete combustion

As far as efficiency, whoever has the lowest exhaust temperature wins, and they're getting stack temperatures below what we would consider safe with stoves due to creosote buildup concerns.

Their solution to "feeding twigs for hours" problem was the "batch box" rocket heater - which provides a masonry chamber that allows you to load a reasonable number of full-size splits, similar to what I feed my stove 2x a day

The design hasn't been standardized and productized like it was for stoves yet, but even with my BK there are a lot of BTUs going out my chimney and if someone can figure out how to scavenge that heat they could approach the efficiency of condensing propane furnaces.
 
there is a side-shoot of that group in the Netherlands, led by Peter van de Berg working on rocket mass heaters.


https://donkey32.proboards.com/

He's getting the burn tube over 1200 C which as peakbagger pointed out is the key to complete combustion

As far as efficiency, whoever has the lowest exhaust temperature wins, and they're getting stack temperatures below what we would consider safe with stoves due to creosote buildup concerns.

Their solution to "feeding twigs for hours" problem was the "batch box" rocket heater - which provides a masonry chamber that allows you to load a reasonable number of full-size splits, similar to what I feed my stove 2x a day

The design hasn't been standardized and productized like it was for stoves yet, but even with my BK there are a lot of BTUs going out my chimney and if someone can figure out how to scavenge that heat they could approach the efficiency of condensing propane furnaces.

But how is it more efficient if it get fed the same amount of fuel as your BK...? If it is heating the same home.

I'm not saying these are bad stoves, they are absolutely not. But it seems to be getting complicated for not much better than "normal" modern stoves have for the same efficiency.

The law of diminishing returns...
 
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there is a side-shoot of that group in the Netherlands, led by Peter van de Berg working on rocket mass heaters.


https://donkey32.proboards.com/

He's getting the burn tube over 1200 C which as peakbagger pointed out is the key to complete combustion

As far as efficiency, whoever has the lowest exhaust temperature wins, and they're getting stack temperatures below what we would consider safe with stoves due to creosote buildup concerns.

Their solution to "feeding twigs for hours" problem was the "batch box" rocket heater - which provides a masonry chamber that allows you to load a reasonable number of full-size splits, similar to what I feed my stove 2x a day

The design hasn't been standardized and productized like it was for stoves yet, but even with my BK there are a lot of BTUs going out my chimney and if someone can figure out how to scavenge that heat they could approach the efficiency of condensing propane furnaces.
First off there is no such thing as complete combustion. It just isn't possible. And the batch box rocket heaters are masonry heaters like what has been used in europe for a very long time.

Again I do think there is value in what they are doing. But many of the claims are pretty outlandish
 
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I agree that as far as lab testing goes, manufacturers have maxed out on efficiency, but there could still be efficiency gains compared to how folks burn their stoves - and not just with wet wood. But the real goal at this point is not efficiency, but its lowering PM in the hands of consumers. ESPs hold some progress but are expensive. Germans and Swiss are experimenting with them pretty aggressively and there are likely going to be local codes that require them there.
 
ESP = electrostatic precipitator? I'd like to see stoves having better instrumentation that inform the operator about the combustion status. If it showed stack temp and PM output, that would be a great help. The second focus has to be on ensuring that "seasoned" firewood meets certain standards of moisture content.
 
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Maybe the stove-o-meter could make an unhappy face when high moisture and PM levels are detected in the stack output?
 
Emissions after treatment scares me, its like a genie you can never get back in the bottle. I fear if regulatory bodies find that they are effective (ESP, particulate filter, etc) then emissions regulations will changes to almost require them. Not that I don't agree with cleaning up emissions, I just believe there is much room for improvement within the stove.

One thought I've had is catalyst preheat, if an external source of heat was applied to the catalyst in the form of resistive electric or a propane flame, the bypass on a stove like a Blaze King could be closed as soon as the fire is lit. A stove like this should never emit visible smoke.
 
I think preheating is a worthwhile avenue to explore. This could be expanded to secondary tubes to get them to light off faster too.
 
I wonder if the preheated air, if hot enough, would light off the smoke in a cold stove. I'd think it would. It would probably charge the flue on borderline draft cases too.
 
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I wonder if the preheated air, if hot enough, would light off the smoke in a cold stove. I'd think it would. It would probably charge the flue on borderline draft cases too.
Preheating secondary air manifolds on most stoves would make lighting very easy and quick. My cookstove lights off the smoke very quickly, I can't imagine how nice it would be if the secondary manifold were preheated!
 
I think the ignition point of CO is around 1100 F that is major consituent of the "smoke" you see. (Note as I have been reminded pure CO is colorles) but when I see dull yellow "smoke" in boiler its usually loaded with CO. Large biomass boilers have an air tube preheater section down stream of the economizer to heat up the incoming combustion air. All the air combusution air is preheated although some "tramp" outside air sneaks its way in through the fuel chutes.
 
First off there is no such thing as complete combustion. It just isn't possible. And the batch box rocket heaters are masonry heaters like what has been used in europe for a very long time.

Again I do think there is value in what they are doing. But many of the claims are pretty outlandish
At best they can only be 20% more efficient than a blaze king right? 5 cords a year to 4....