New member,new stove and new Runaway...super 27

[begreen]

Good to hear there is progress. Yes, modern stoves run quite differently than the old preEPA variety. This takes a bit getting used to and then it is quite nice. Any leakage around the stove door gasket is unacceptable. Just a small amount of leakage can make a large difference in how the stove burns. For example, I just put a new gasket on our PE T6 stove 2 days ago. It is not the OEM gasket, I had to use what I could find until an OEM gasket can be sent to me. The gasket is leaking ever so slightly in spite of being in new condition. I notice this in the flue temps which are too high and in the position of the air control which has to be closed further and there is less secondary activity than there should be. It's still there, but not as much. The new gasket is too stiff and is not making as tight a seal as it needs to. This can't be measured with a dollar bill. That is being clamped tight. But the fire and flue temps say it all. Hopefully I will have a new gasket by tomorrow or Monday and the stove can return to normal operation.

You can not get reliable reading of flue temps from the surface of a double-wall pipe. It takes a probe thermometer. Normally our probe temps are about 100F less than the stove top temp, but with this new stiff gasket they have been the opposite, reading about 100-200F higher. Normally at peak burn the stove top is about 600-650F and the flue about 500-550F.

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

Good to hear there is progress. Yes, modern stoves run quite differently than the old preEPA variety. This takes a bit getting used to and then it is quite nice. Any leakage around the stove door gasket is unacceptable. Just a small amount of leakage can make a large difference in how the stove burns. For example, I just put a new gasket on our PE T6 stove 2 days ago. It is not the OEM gasket, I had to use what I could find until an OEM gasket can be sent to me. The gasket is leaking ever so slightly in spite of being in new condition. I notice this in the flue temps which are too high and in the position of the air control which has to be closed further and there is less secondary activity than there should be. It's still there, but not as much. The new gasket is too stiff and is not making as tight a seal as it needs to. This can't be measured with a dollar bill. That is being clamped tight. But the fire and flue temps say it all. Hopefully I will have a new gasket by tomorrow or Monday and the stove can return to normal operation.

You can not get reliable reading of flue temps from the surface of a double-wall pipe. It takes a probe thermometer. Normally our probe temps are about 100F less than the stove top temp, but with this new stiff gasket they have been the opposite, reading about 100-200F higher. Normally at peak burn the stove top is about 600-650F and the flue about 500-550F.

Ya i'm new to this whole secondary burn stuff and like a little kid i've been on my hands and knees watching the flames and how it all works.
My stove is early 90's so I assume it's one of the first
Stoves with secondary burn technology?

From what I see the super 27's baffle has changed and for the better I assume?

Yes my issues now must be the door gasket. Seems the secondary burn is not 100% just yet.
It's fun to experiment with the stove.
Tonight I was burning some well seasoned tamarack. Wow does it burn hot especislly this stuff that grows so slow in the Rocky Mountains.
Anyway I filled the fire box and had the damper wide open. Didn't let yhe flames get to crazy then put it down to half. Then once it was burning nice and hot I closed damper right off. It was still rock'n pretty good so I opened the door for a minute then shut it and the fire died down a bit.
That's the issue i'm having. The damper should knock that fire back. Hopefully door gasket is the culprit.
One other thing is after i load the wood i'd likevto be able to turn the damper down alot faster than I am now and have it burn better. Seems it just smokes a little too much but again I don't think the secondary burn is 100 percent yet.

Also if any one knows, does my baffle need two of the little square gaskets or just the one? I just put the one in but wonder if it needs two back to back?

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

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Sorry for the wait, hope this helps.

Cool thanks. Yep that sure looks like the same as my early 90's S-27. Seems like the only thing they changed or upgraded was the baffle and diffrent leg options and ash tray. Mine has a squarechole welded up under the bricks I noticed at the bottom.
For the ash dump I assume?

I tried to post a pic off my phone of mine but wasn't succesfull.

 

[begreen]

Make sure that ash hole is sealing tightly. There should be no air feeding the fire from that location. I don't know the year that the switch occurred but I think the original Super series had a steel baffle and support rails instead of stainless steel.

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

Make sure that ash hole is sealing tightly. There should be no air feeding the fire from that location. I don't know the year that the switch occurred but I think the original Super series had a steel baffle and support rails instead of stainless steel.

Ya that hole is welded shut. I got the stove from a relative so not sure if the sealed it up but it's solid from what I see.

Not sure if mine is stainless or not but I know it looks like new. Not all rusted or bent so I would guess it's stainless?

 

[Squisher]

Possibly replaced at some point, the baffle that is.

Glad to read you've got it tamed down a bit and are starting to regain some confidence in it.

 

[Squisher]

You should just need one of the baffle gaskets if everything is sitting flat. If it isn't all sitting flat, then a second or thicker custom made gasket might help seal it up better.

I think Begreen ran double gaskets on his? So couldn't hurt.

 

[begreen]

I ran double factory gaskets at the secondary collar on mine because they were cheap. As of this season I now have a homemade gasket there that should last for years.

 

[Woody Stover]

My opinion is even if I loaded the whole fire box with 2 x 4's you should still be able to damper that stove down by choking off the air supply.

That is not how it works.

Yeah, they have to make it idiot-proof. The whole idea is to reduce emissions, so they want to make sure there is always some air going to the fire, to keep it burning clean. Otherwise, some operators would be cutting the air, trying to get a longer burn, and would end up smoldering the stove and smoking out the 'hood.

UPDATE. I just wraped some haywire around the part that wedges onto the fixed latch on the stove and it's nice and tight now.

Sounds like a fix I would do...baling wire and duct tape. I'm having a hard time visualizing it though...need pics...lots of pics of everything.

So I never messed with the air intake at all I just left it as is then I put some kindling in and intentionally made it so that it would smoke quite a bit so I could check for leaks. Sure enough smoke was coming out from around the door. ( has anyone tried this test and should it Seal 100%)

If smoke was coming out of the stove, there must not have been much draft from that short chimney at the time, which is what I would expect. The fact that this short stack can sometimes generate enough draft to make the stove hard to control, is perplexing. I guess that's possible but there would have to be a fairly big air leak into the stove, besides the air from the EPA gap in the air control.

is it OK to put a chimney damper in or is this frowned upon with these new EPA stoves? I'd still like to be able to snuff out the fire if I have to and I would think a damper would help do that.

I don't think a damper would help, since I can't envision that short stack creating all that much draft, and a pipe damper plate allows some air to leak around it anyway. They only work on tall stacks that are sucking like a tornado. Out of curiosity, what happens when the stove is burning well, and you open the door. Is there an immediate roaring fire which is scary, sucking up the chimney? I kind of doubt it, given your stack height.

one thing I can tell you is that I promised myself I will never be without wood heat ever again so long as I'm living in this cold climate here in Canada lol. Unbelievable difference in the comfort of my home now.

Beats the heck out of keeping room temp under 65*, trying to keep the furnace from running.

for now the stove is working just fine the way it is. I have been watching it like a hawk and taking notes etc until I find out every little detail about how it works, every stove seems to be different.

Experiment with your technique when ramping up a fresh load. You should be able to control the amount of wood you get burning at the beginning, and this will enable you to control the entire burn. Once you get too much wood gassing at the beginning, it becomes a self-feeding loop and it's hard to slow it down by just cutting the air.

The top of the stove seems to get around 600°F or a little higher...I want to be able to crank this thing up but I want to be safe about it.

Master your start-up procedure, keeping it under control like I said, then if you want a little more stove top temp, you can give it a little more air. Go to the PE website and download your manual, if you haven't already. They may mention in there what that maximum stove top temp can be.

You should just need one of the baffle gaskets if everything is sitting flat. If it isn't all sitting flat, then a second or thicker custom made gasket might help seal it up better.

I ran double factory gaskets on mine because they were cheap. As of this season I now have a homemade gasket there that should last for years.

Search "Hogwildz home made gasket" and see if you can find that thread. I think if this baffle gasket is leaking, the secondary won't work as well (something you voiced concern about earlier)...but maybe I'm mistaken.

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

Yeah, they have to make it idiot-proof. The whole idea is to reduce emissions, so they want to make sure there is always some air going to the fire, to keep it burning clean. Otherwise, some operators would be cutting the air, trying to get a longer burn, and would end up smoldering the stove and smoking out the 'hood.
Sounds like a fix I would do...baling wire and duct tape. I'm having a hard time visualizing it though...need pics...lots of pics of everything.
If smoke was coming out of the stove, there must not have been much draft from that short chimney at the time, which is what I would expect. The fact that this short stack can sometimes generate enough draft to make the stove hard to control, is perplexing. I guess that's possible but there would have to be a fairly big air leak into the stove, besides the air from the EPA gap in the air control.
I don't think a damper would help, since I can't envision that short stack creating all that much draft, and a pipe damper plate allows some air to leak around it anyway. They only work on tall stacks that are sucking like a tornado. Out of curiosity, what happens when the stove is burning well, and you open the door. Is there an immediate roaring fire which is scary, sucking up the chimney? I kind of doubt it, given your stack height.
Beats the heck out of keeping room temp under 65*, trying to keep the furnace from running.
Experiment with your technique when ramping up a fresh load. You should be able to control the amount of wood you get burning at the beginning, and this will enable you to control the entire burn. Once you get too much wood gassing at the beginning, it becomes a self-feeding loop and it's hard to slow it down by just cutting the air.
Master your start-up procedure, keeping it under control like I said, then if you want a little more stove top temp, you can give it a little more air. Go to the PE website and download your manual, if you haven't already. They may mention in there what that maximum stove top temp can be.

Search "Hogwildz home made gasket" and see if you can find that thread. I think if this baffle gasket is leaking, the secondary won't work as well (something you voiced concern about earlier)...but maybe I'm mistaken.

Hay wire... Lol I almost didn't want to mention that. Lol It's not as bad as it sounds. I just wraped a few turns around the door latch and ot tightened it right up. Before my dog could walk by it and rub agaist it i'm sure it would have opened.

I read the PE manula and ot says min length from stove to chimney cap is 15'... Mine is almost 9', so too short by there standards but 15' would make sit way over my roof. Is mine somehow unsafe now because I only have 9'??

When I open the door with a good fore it doesn't go crazy no.

The stove is working good but sometimes I want to damper it down to extend burn times and it smokes like any old stove would. I wonder if that gasket isn't sealing. I have my baffle bolted inplace but I saw on a you tube video where PE just has a little metal bent rod that holds the baffle in place. You'd think mine being bolted in would be better but maybe it needs to float with expantion??
I know if I get the fire rocking really good and then I turn the damper off all the way I can see the secondary burn happening but often it doesn't last for very long and the fire dies down lower and you could see smoke coming out the chimney. I was thinking that the stove maybe isn't supposed to do that?
I know I can get along burn time if I put the wood in let it roar for about two minutes and then damper it completely off I'll get about 7/8hours out of it. The other day I put nothing but solid logs in and I got 10 hours and it was producing good heat but was smoking quite a bit for the first while until it cleaned up probably halfway through the night while I was sleeping. I will have to go up and see what my chimney looks like as far as creosote is.
Are these new stoves and is even my stove design to burn real slow but clean or not I honestly don't know. With my old smoke dragon stoves I would just damper off and It would smoke like crazy for the first little bit and then clear up as the night went on but I'm thinking with these new EPA stoves it's designed to burn clean almost all the time Or is it?

 

[begreen]

It could be smoking when turned down due to insufficient draft being unable to support secondary burn. The baffle is going nowhere. It's pretty heavy and is held captive by the secondary feed tube in the rear.

 

[VirginiaIron]

Here is an article by the chimneysweeponline regarding mill ends and them being the common denominator to premature stove/stove pipe failure.

(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/homillends.htm)

 

[Elciteeve]

I read the PE manula and ot says min length from stove to chimney cap is 15'... Mine is almost 9', so too short by there standards but 15' would make sit way over my roof. Is mine somehow unsafe now because I only have 9'??

From what I understand the specs for safety only (and not the ones for functionality, which are also mandatory) are that if your chimney is less than 3' above where it protrudes from the roof, and less than 10' over then you are at risk for sparks landing on your roof, or a chimney fire going sideways and catching the roof on fire. So it is all about the height past your roof as far as safety. The other rules are about keeping the draft flowing properly. That's what I was able to discover at least. I wondered about these rules also as I just installed my chimney last week.

 

[BigFir]

The sealing is the big unknown it seems. If the door doesn't seal up, then the stove may be impossible to tame. Even with one of our slippery $20's it should hold the bill firmly. Seem like you're going to tear it before it'll pull out, or at the least take quite a tug to 'slide it' at all. If you can pull it out fairly easily it's to loose.

It would take a lot of force to tear our new bill compared to an american bill. They are very tough and water proof. Ask me, I washed 600$ a little while ago.......

 

[Woody Stover]

it is all about the height past your roof as far as safety.

That's the 3-2-10 rule. I think that in addition to safety considerations, adhering to this rule will also make for better draft.

 

[Elciteeve]

Yes. I think the OP was asking specifically about the safety aspects. I know I was concerned with the "why" of those rules. It seems like the "2" part of that rule is for draft purposes. The "10" and "3" aspects seem to be for safety. I like to know why the rules exist, I don't do well with blindly following orders. That was what I was able to find at least.

Hopefully understanding this concept and continuing to learn I'll be able to help someone figure out their stove queries in the future.

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

It could be smoking when turned down due to insufficient draft being unable to support secondary burn. The baffle is going nowhere. It's pretty heavy and is held captive by the secondary feed tube in the rear.

Injust thought if I stuffed a log in and it lifted the baffle slightly then the secondary burn wouldn't work right because of the leak at gasket area. Mine is bolted in. I just saw a video on the newer ones where there is just a pin that slides in to hold baffle in place. Not sure maybe mine had a pin too? I tapped mine and put a bolt in. It seemed like it had threads but bolt/pin was missing when I got it.But if I take the bolt out there's nothing holding it down, it will lift up I believe.
And yes I could have a draft issue since recomended stove to rain cap is 15' and i'm at 9. I will try my door gasket and see what changes if any that makes then i'll double up my secondary baffle gasket. I like to only make one change at a time so I know what did what.

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

Yes. I think the OP was asking specifically about the safety aspects. I know I was concerned with the "why" of those rules. It seems like the "2" part of that rule is for draft purposes. The "10" and "3" aspects seem to be for safety. I like to know why the rules exist, I don't do well with blindly following orders. That was what I was able to find at least.

Hopefully understanding this concept and continuing to learn I'll be able to help someone figure out their stove queries in the future.

Ya was just wondering if the 15' that PE calls for is a manditory height or if it's just a recomendation for propper draft. The stove is mobile home approved so can't see the 15' spec being manditory. It would be sticking almost 10 feet above the roof.
The stove is working great now as is and will only get better as I address the little issues.
Even with the door gasket leaking that one time upon start up I never get smoke leaking out of it once it's fired up. Replacing it with factory gasket just to be safe.

 

[EPA RUNAWAY]

I need to get a pipe temp gauge. What's the best bang for the buck? I saw one where an alarm goes off if pipe gets hotter than what you set it at.
Brand name and price as well if anyone knows please. I'll start researching in the mean time.

And getting great burn times with solid logs on the bottom and split logs on top. Just want to keep my chimney clean as possible so knowing pipe temp will help.
I noticed I have this brown sticky stuff on the outside of my chimney, mostly on the storm collar and around the flashing. Not much, barely any but it is there. Creosote I assume?
In my home built woodstove I had that I installed in my camper I never once in 3 years of burning did I ever see that? I had thousands of fires and regularly had flames shooting out the chimney. Stove to tip of chimney was only about 7 feet. I burnt EVERYTHING u can think of. All my garbage, plastic , oil cardboard etc etc. I didn't have a rain cap on either and about once a month I'd go up and pop off the 6" stove pipe I had at the very top of the chimney. All the creosote would end up on it and i'd just run my flat screwdriver around the edge and it would fall back down into the stove to be reburned.
Of course having flames shooting out the top and burning anything went against all rules but you know I never once had to clean the chimney itself. It was spotless.
Having said that, nothing but wood will get burned in this stove.

 

[Elciteeve]

Brown sticky stuff on the storm collar... sounds like mastik.

 

[blades]

Ya was just wondering if the 15' that PE calls for is a manditory height or if it's just a recomendation for propper draft. The stove is mobile home approved so can't see the 15' spec being manditory. It would be sticking almost 10 feet above the roof.
The stove is working great now as is and will only get better as I address the little issues.
Even with the door gasket leaking that one time upon start up I never get smoke leaking out of it once it's fired up. Replacing it with factory gasket just to be safe.

had an 90's tube stove in a mobile home flue height was maybe 9 ft , draft wasn't a problem for mine . Don't remember the name but they got out of it when the EPA testing regs came into play . as such it was about a 2 cubic ft stove rated for around 1000 sq ft. secondaries didn't last that long heck they don't last forever on the NC 30 either. But that depends on the type of ( wood) being used. soft woods like silver maple and such are going to be pretty short on the 2nd burn time Vs Oak or other very dense species. Kinda needs to relatively dark in the stove room to really see the 2nd action going on. It does take a bit for the stove to get up to temp and the 2ds to light off from a cold start much faster on a good bed of coals. with DRY fuel of course ( wondrous deference in heat output between 20% so so and 15 % moisture content fuel)

 

[blades]

Brown sticky stuff storm collar could be creosote (but then you should see drip marks down the pipe as well I would think )- which would be an indication that fuel has too much moisture content or that perhaps throttling it back a bit soon or too low an air setting. I never got that on the storm collar only just around the cap area which is normal as the gases condense at the flue exit in the cold air, for me more of staining rather than a sticky coating.

 

[Attaboy]

EPA Runaway I believe you are going through a learning stage with your stove, you must forget everything you ever knew about operating wood stoves prior to EPA stoves, you must learn how to operate these current stoves which are very different animals all together as they do require more refined mastering.


EPA stoves are designed to burn much cleaner and greatly reduce creosote build up therefore minimizing chimney fires and even more importantly house fires, to achieve this cleaner level stove manufacturers inject far greater quantities of air in current stoves than our previous old smokers and polluters and they are designed to always allow a minimal constant quantity of air in to the stoves, you cannot shut them down completely/totally and this is to promote cleaner burns, it would be counter intuitive to close the air inlet completely as we would again revert back to smokers and polluters .


1- In a mobile home you must use double wall flue pipe, and to operate your stove correctly and efficiently you require a quality flue thermometer deigned for double-wall flue pipes, here is what I use and it is better than my previous Taylor brand flue thermometer:

(broken link removed to http://www.condarcanada.com/index.php?id_product=32&controller=product&id_lang=1)

A good thermometer will help you in using your stove properly and efficiently.


2- According to PE, your stove requires 1/2'' medium density fiberglass rope door gasket, from 20+ years of experience with mine it is almost impossible to find as high a quality aftermarket medium density fiberglass rope door gasket online or from stove dealers, (in my area anyway) , about the only supplier I have found for high quality medium density fiberglass rope is PE and this by ordering via a stove retailer the OEM gasket which seems to last at least twice as long vs aftermarket gasketing. Stove dealer 1/2'' gaskets do fit very well, however I have found on my stove that these gaskets become very hard and ineffective after 2 burning seasons or so requiring a new gasket change again (no big deal doing this every 2 years if required, easy job). When I spoke directly with PE in British Columbia I was told that in a pinch I could use 5/8'' but 1/2'' was preferable as the stove was engineered for 1/2'' medium density fiberglass rope. I believe that in the mid to late 2000's this stove design was changed to use much larger door gasket now.


3- Check your stove for cracked welds, poor or hard ill fitting gasketing and poor door fit that could be letting extra air in. You can hammer the door latch in a bit to close it up a little permitting the door handle to pull the door in more tightly against the stove, therefore sealing better.


4- Somehow I am detecting that you may be overloading your fuel load in your stove on initial start up pushing it in to over fire mode, I recommend you start with smaller fires and build on that, you will eventually with experience become much more proficient with it and know your stove far better. For overnight burning I load 2 very large hardwood log splits north-south nearly covering the floor of the stove, as well I have cut large hardwood log splits to 13'' in length of which I load one large piece east-west over the 2 initials log splits and push this last one all the way against the back of the stove with my poker, this gives plenty of overnight heat and lots of glowing coals to draw back to the front of the stove in the morning to start a new fire with.

Remember softer wood species burn significantly hotter and burn up much quicker, smaller pieces of softwood are good to help start your fires, however if thrown in to a glowing fire or on the top of your hardwoods it will lead to a overfire condition, especially if close to the baffle bottom and secondary burn outlets. Ask me how I know !


5- Experience with my Spectrum has thought me that when flue temp reaches 375°- 400° on my flue thermometer it is time to shut down my air control totally and then immediately crack it open about 1/8'' to 1/4'' or so depending on draw at that time, (yours may be slightly different), the result is that the fire starts intensifying slowly to a higher burn rate and the rising flue temps settle between 450° and 550° or so at peak burn stage if not overfired at start up, now depending on outdoor weather sometimes for 20 to 40 minutes flue temp reaches 600+++° and then settles back down to the 450° - 550° range after the initial wood load exterior core chars and burns down.


Good luck with your learning curve,





NOTE: Quoted from PE's new stove OWNER'S MANUAL for Super 27's and Spectrum's:

'' Smoke-free, clean burning requires small fuel loads, two or three logs at a time or 1/4 to 1/2 of fuel load and leaving the air inlet relatively wide open, especially during the first 10 to 30 minutes after each loading, when most of the smoke generating reactions are occurring. After 30 minutes or so, the air inlet can be turned down substantially without excessive smoke generation. Wood coals create very little creosote-producing smoke. ''

'' Your PACIFIC ENERGY heater is designed for maximum overall efficiency at a moderate firing rate. Overfiring is hazardous and a waste of fuel. Too slow a burn contributes to creosote buildup and lowers combustion efficiency. ''


Wood Selection


'' This heater is designed to burn natural wood only. Higher efficiency and lower emissions generally result when burning air-dried seasoned hardwoods, as compared to softwoods or to green or freshly cut hardwoods. ''


'' Wood should be properly air dried (seasoned) for six months or more. Wet or undried wood will cause the fire to smoulder and produce large amounts of creosote. Wet wood also produces very little heat and tends to go out often. ''


'' DO NOT BURN :


-Salt water wood * -Treated wood


-Wet or green wood -Coal/charcoal


-Garbage/Plastic * -Solvents


* These materials contain chlorides which will rapidly destroy metal surfaces and void warranty. ''

 

[Attaboy]

My opinion is even if I loaded the whole fire box with 2 x 4's you should still be able to damper that stove down by choking off the air supply.

NO ! Your opinion is completely wrong, do not do this with a EPA stove, these are not the old smokers/polluters you choked to death, doing that is very dangerous. You may not understand how clean burning technology EPA approved stoves work.

'' Smoke-free, clean burning requires small fuel loads, two or three logs at a time or 1/4 to 1/2 of fuel load and leaving the air inlet relatively wide open especially during the first 10 to 30 minutes after each loading ''