New house - Creosote dripping - Help

[mcmurray]

Invaluable info, thanks again.

I don't however, know enough about the stove and chimney setup to fully answer all your questions.

The builder and stove installer are going to call in the next few days to take a look. If they don't find a suitable solution that I'm happy with, I'll get an independent check done.

Will update in a few days.

 

[HotCoals]

. Any combustion by-product should remain in the flue liner.

100% concur. There is no dancing around that. Something has to be wrong and again I don't believe that to be creosote.
Seems like a roofing cement/sealer tar like substance was use somewhere..maybe near the top of the chimney and ran down the outside of the pipes if they are together correctly or not.

 

[BurnIt13]

I'm still getting over my firewood withdrawals.....subscribing as I'd like to see what happens.

 

[SteveKG]

I'

Something has to be wrong and again I don't believe that to be creosote.
Seems like a roofing cement/sealer tar like substance was use somewhere..maybe near the top of the chimney and ran down the outside of the pipes if they are together correctly or not.

From the first post, I've been having trouble imagining that much "creosote" being produced AND being enough to be dripping down after only a couple very small fires in a brand-new construction. Doesn't make sense. In any case, I would not do any more burning until I knew exactly for certain what that is and what is causing it and where it is coming from. It may turn out to be a simple explanation and an easy fix. Though I still can't imagine what it is. The dripping creosote situations I've witnessed over the years normally involved stovepipe/chimneys that had not been cleaned in a while and had had a number of fires burning green wood. That is not the case here.

 

[begreen]

Hope the builder didn't use tar sealant in this system.

 

[blades]

TAr sealant is what it looks like( not much differance between tar and creosote visually) although I have seen foam insulation melted do the same.

 

[BurnIt13]

If it were tar....wouldn't it stink like heck??? Especially when heated? I imagine that stuff would be pretty flammable too, so if this was dripping on to a 500 degree stove, or onto the chimney and stove pipe I'd be real nervous.

I'm real curious how this even happened.

 

[Chimney Smoke]

Is it just me or do the pipes look pretty used for a new install also?

 

[Nick Mystic]

I also think the pipe going through the ceiling of the alcove looks strange. In fact, to me it looks like it six inches at the pipe and then it looks like it connects to some sort of adapter making it larger. It reminds me of a thimble on my basement stove that goes from 6" to a thimble that adapts it to a larger circular clay tile piece that goes into the side of my clay tile flue.

 

[mcmurray]

I also think the pipe going through the ceiling of the alcove looks strange. In fact, to me it looks like it six inches at the pipe and then it looks like it connects to some sort of adapter making it larger. It reminds me of a thimble on my basement stove that goes from 6" to a thimble that adapts it to a larger circular clay tile piece that goes into the side of my clay tile flue.

Well, the above post pretty much sums it up.



After all your very helpful advice and possible solutions, I was able to do some more research into the installation and have found the reason for the problem.

There is no flexible steel lining within the flue system. What the installer has used is a rather simple and nasty flue adaptor that sits within the 8 inch terracotta flue. This is obviously not sealed properly and any moisture is leaking out. As the chimney is a larger diameter than the stove pipe, the chimney system is over-rated. This is probably the source of all the moisture due to condensation?

I found a very helpful local company that really know their stuff. They were able to advise me over the phone. They're going to carry out an inspection of the stove installer's work and advise of what further work needs done to make it work as it should. This will probably involve installing a 6 inch steel flue and insulating it within our existing chimney.

Our builder confirmed this when I spoke to him the other day. He pretty much said he didn't know the steel flue was needed and that the stove installer hadn't pushed to install one. I'm guessing they've both taken the cheapest route and hoped it would work fine.

My main grievance is that I've spoken to the stove installer a couple of times over the past few weeks and he's continued to insist it was wet wood and it would stop after a while. Not once has he mentioned about the steel flue liner. Either he's been trying to fob me off or he really is just a cowboy installer who knows very little about his profession. One thing is for sure, he won't be carrying out the steel flue install as I think he's seriously incompetent and I wouldn't want him in my house ever again.

Once the inspection is carried out, I'll present the report and quote for the further work to the builder and push that he contribute to paying for the work.

I just have the small issue of the £600 I owe the installer for extras (the granite hearth and stone back wall). I'm not sure where I stand as these are now stained from the dripping but I'll worry about that later.

Here is a link to a PDF I found really helpful the other day: (broken link removed to http://cdsf.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/flex-lining-explained.pdf) . This is the company I mentioned earlier who are carrying out the inspection. Page 2 shows what I guessed was the problem I was having. According to that PDF, 'Building Regulations in Northern Ireland state it is necessary to reduce the diameter of the flue to suit the appliance you are fitting, as over sized flues can be unsafe.' This is something I'll need to find out in more depth to see where I stand in regards to paying for any further flue work.

I'll update again after the inspection when I've a proper professional report.



Thanks again,
Ryan

 

[kennyp2339]

Ryan, sorry to hear about your whacky install, I read that pdf and then compared the pictures of what you have and the pdf's, essentially the installer took a reducer and turned it upside down to meet the inside of the flu, all I can say is wow. Not only did that illegal connection wreck / stain you hearth and stone back wall, it could have killed you and your family with co gas, absolutely horrible. At the very least send the installer a thank you card explaining how you love the creosote stained hearth area, (didn't know that was an extra option), and the free co gas that leaked into you living space, tell them you fell asleep at night real good breathing that in. On a high note, glad to see you pulled the trigger and got a real professional in there to do the job right. Good luck!

 

[Auzzie Gumtree]

Did the stove get passed off by the building inspector? if it did then this will open up another can of worms..... I wouldn't be giving him a penny of the 600 pounds - or at the very most i would subtract any further cost you incur to make the install up-to your total satisfaction. Hope this doesn't put you off burning wood.

 

[Grisu]

Great to hear that you could identify the problem. It's just sad that the installer did such a poor job. If you have something like a consumer protection office you could ask them about the best way to get recourse from the installer and potentially the builder. Not sure how much the builder is at fault when he was relying on the stove installer for professional guidance.

Seeing that your chimney is pretty tall I would ask the other company whether putting in a slightly undersized liner may be an idea to avoid overdraft. A reduction to 5.5 inches usually still allows good draft and may make your stove more controllable. Does it maybe state a maximum flue length in the stove manual?

 

[paul bunion]

The install that you got is basically what's called a 'slammer' here. It refers to the practice of putting an insert into a fireplace without a properly sized flue liner. Google 'slammer insert' or 'slammer woodstove' and you will find quite a bit of info.

 

[Hogwildz]

A smaller diameter liner is going to pull a stronger draft.

 

[Grisu]

A smaller diameter liner is going to pull a stronger draft.

http://www.woodheat.org/how-chimneys-work.html
"In planning wood heating systems, experienced installers will sometimes choose a chimney that has a smaller inside diameter than the appliance flue collar. This is usually done when the chimney runs inside the house and is very tall. Chimneys that exceed 8 m (about 25 ft.) in height sometimes produce more draft than the appliance needs, so a smaller chimney can be used without any reduction in performance. The decision as to whether the flue size may be reduced from that of the appliance flue collar must be left to an experienced technician."

 

[bluedogz]

Either he's been trying to fob me off or he really is just a cowboy installer who knows very little about his profession.

Possibly both!

I hope one extra lesson here is that this particular forum is populated with a safety-conscious bunch who generally want to help. Your attention to detail in finding that building code and a qualified installer will serve you well in your wood-burning career.

 

[begreen]

So glad to hear that you have made some progress. A properly installed liner that is directly connected to the stove should solve your problems. It looks like the chimney is about 25ft tall. If so, just go with the recommended liner size.

 

[begreen]

http://www.woodheat.org/how-chimneys-work.html
"In planning wood heating systems, experienced installers will sometimes choose a chimney that has a smaller inside diameter than the appliance flue collar. This is usually done when the chimney runs inside the house and is very tall. Chimneys that exceed 8 m (about 25 ft.) in height sometimes produce more draft than the appliance needs, so a smaller chimney can be used without any reduction in performance. The decision as to whether the flue size may be reduced from that of the appliance flue collar must be left to an experienced technician."

A smaller diameter flue will draft stronger, but it will move less volume of air.

 

[HotCoals]

A smaller diameter flue will draft stronger, but it will move less volume of air.

I concur. A big door on a stove needs a bigger flue generally.

 

[Grisu]

A smaller diameter flue will draft stronger, but it will move less volume of air.

I use the word "draft" in the sense of flue gas flow rate which is measured in volume per time (m3/s). Thus, less volume of air will mean less draft. Maybe that's incorrect wording on my part. Is there a better definition of draft and should I use "flue gas flow rate" in the future?

 

[HotCoals]

What the installer has used is a rather simple and nasty flue adaptor that sits within the 8 inch terracotta flue. This is obviously not sealed properly and any moisture is leaking out.

Surely it's wrong but I still doubt the mess is from creosote and moisture though i guess it could be.
This whole setup was new so it's not like there would have been a messy chimney to begin with.

 

[mcmurray]

Surely it's wrong but I still doubt the mess is from creosote and moisture though i guess it could be.
This whole setup was new so it's not like there would have been a messy chimney to begin with.

Could it not just be condensation from the the times I've lit the stove and the chimney not drawing as it should? Coupled with the chimney being new and possibly already having moisture in it?

I'll be better informed after the inspection.

 

[SteveKG]

Well, anything's possible. I've never seen such happen so quickly, but I haven't seen everything. At this point, any further speculation is simple that: just speculation. It will be interesting to learn the outcome of the inspection. I am predicting the inspection will provide the answer to all.

 

[HotCoals]

Could it not just be condensation from the the times I've lit the stove and the chimney not drawing as it should?

Maybe if the wood was from creosote treated rail road ties.

When the fire was going and you opened the door did smoke come into the room..I ask that because that would be somewhat of a indicator of how good the draft was.

What were the temps outside when you had fire in the stove?

I agree with Steve above . Hope things get right for you and certainly not at your expense.