New code requirememts Concerning CO regulations

[BrotherBart]

We have CO and smoke detectors up stairs and down and in the basement. But I was just wondering. Has anybody ever heard of somebody getting CO poisoning from a wood stove or fireplace? I know it can happen, but I have just never heard of it happening. It seems the smoke and smell would alert you before CO levels got too high.

 

[elkimmeg]

Problem is we neither smell smoke or detect Co when we are sleeping and most of us sleep hours a day and crank up a wood stove to run overnight when we are sleeping and most venerable to Co poisoning . The ones that died from asphyxiation's from wood stoves are not talking

 

[BrotherBart]

Problem is we neither smell smoke or detect Co when we are sleeping and most of us sleep hours a day and crank up a wood stove to run overnight when we are sleeping and most venerable to Co poisoning . The ones that died from asphyxiation's from wood stoves are not talking

And nobody ever found them?

 

[karl]

This worries me now that I live alone. When I go to bed I'm out like a fat kid in dodge ball. I had a golden retriever and a border collie barking their heads off in the middle of the night because I left there food bowl on the porch and some other animal was eating it. I didn't wake up my wife had to wake me up by nudging me, so I would see go what was going on. Do they make smoke and carbon monoxide detectors for the deaf? Maybe one that turns a light on or something. Maybe I could rig one up to a standard detector.

 

[elkimmeg]

Karl place a combination smoke and CO detector in you bedroom as well Believe me it will make enough noise you will wake up Today codes require bedroom smoke detectors.

I mean if you are really concerned then a commercial unit will flash strobe lights as well

Co is not just stove related ITS a d good idea to have protection if you have a furnace or fuel fired hot water heater
With you concerns of getting your stove installed correctly full liner block off plate modern new stove seasoned wood You should have little fear

Usually when things are installed correctly the dangers are of little consequences. Proper maintained, is the next step to keep the appliance running efficiently and safe

 

[kwburn]

i know this thread is mostly discussing gas devices, but is there ever a scenario that a wood burning stove would set off a CO detector? i would think it would set off a smoke detector before anything else. i think it came up in the past and i though the answer was no but i forget.

 

[fbelec]

This was voted in by our congressmen and senators and signed by our Gov There was little opposition the the bill
The people decided it was necessary Not us code officials or code writers this was part of a law passed requiring Carbon Monoxide detectors in every residence nd place of busness That had combustion appliances in the building. Naturally not required for electric heat and appliances
As of April 15 2005 Carbon monoxide detectors are mandatory.

The fire depts are called in with the closing of every home to test the smoke detectors and to test the Monoxide detectors. If none are present, then no certificate of compliance The banks will not pass papers

I have a soft rubber ball I stuff in the vent if the system fails to shut down the final mechanical inspection fails. On the smaller vents I use a tennis ball . They do not shut down right away I have to go back sometimes 3/4 hours later to confirm the shut down and the burners have to be manually reset . Yes there is someone out there checking on these issues

Not a bad idea for the homeowner to check out their own system and get to know how to manually reset it. Like changing batteries in smoke detectors and testing them.

right now I am trying to get code to require automatic shutdown of air furnaces upon smoke detection alarm. This would increase containment and not spread deadly fumes threw out the system

The NFPA is also sponsoring this initiative

i like the idea of carbon monoxide det and the signs for the vents. but teaching the home owner how to reset the manual reset on the burner may not be a good idea.
it's like teaching the home owner about the reset on a fireomatic on a oil burner. they like to keep pushing the button when the burner doesn't light instead of calling the heat guy.

 

[elkimmeg]

You are right about the oil burner reset button. It should only be pushed once. Oil vapors builds up from a prior pushing the button without ignition

IF that vapor exist and it fires the next time the reset is pushed an explosion can occur. you make a real good point about owner resets

 

[fbelec]

i like the idea of the c/o detector shutting the burner down if it goes into alarm.
the hard thing is getting the manufacturers to make up a relay or something like that to work with the detectors. it took a long time for them to come out with a detector system that you can hookup together with smoke detectors for alarm and in all my supply houses there is only one brand that i know of that does this. and none of the company's make a combo smoke/c/o and photo electric to be placed in the small house hallways that have bedrooms and bathroom in a small area.

 

[elkimmeg]

Commercial furnaces come equipped to being wired into the alarm system some are the exact residential models but added switching and wiring.

I was told that is could be done relatively inexpensive probably less than $50 To me it is a no brainier for the safety it provides. A very simple addition to the boiler/furnaces that get tied into the existing smoke alarm system or expanded to the co alarms

I know 3 way detectors are on the drawing board ion , photo electric and CO I don't know if they are in the market place yet .

In the past I posted the pros and cons of ion and photo electric detection. Did you know who requested iron detectors to be less sensitive?

Fire marshals too many false alarms so the ion ones were rendered less effective. Very easy to make them detect the smoldering fire sooner like they used to

 

[Gooserider]

i know this thread is mostly discussing gas devices, but is there ever a scenario that a wood burning stove would set off a CO detector? i would think it would set off a smoke detector before anything else. i think it came up in the past and i though the answer was no but i forget.

I can say from personal experience that yes there is... We had one evening last winter where somehow the door on our smoke dragon didn't get properly latched, :red: and came open a bit. We were woken by the CO detector INSIDE our bedroom going off, but NOT the smoke detector outside the bedroom, in the same space as the stove, or the smoke detector in the downstairs hall, two open doorways away, or the smoke detector in the basement down the open stairway from the room with the stove in it...

I smelled the smoke and felt my eyes burning once I was woken by the alarm and even more when I opened the door to the bedroom, but it was NOT enough to wake me by itself. I ended up opening a bunch of windows, and after lengthy discussion with the GF, we decided to stay in the house and NOT go to a hotel for the rest of the night (3-4 hours) According to discussion here at the time, this was about what the FD would have done except that they would have used their big forced air fans to get the air moving a bit more.

However the CO detectors are a good idea for sure. I would have replaced our three hard wired Firex smokes last year, except there were some changes in MA codes that the available Firex models didn't meet, I need to revisit the question now to see if they released the promised update and get them. I also need to check with the FD to find out just what additional detectors I might need to meet the current requirements.

I might also try doing a test on our HVAC furnace to see if it does shut down when the intake or exhaust vent is blocked - I've been told it's supposed to, but haven't actually tried it...

Gooserider

 

[fbelec]

hey elk do you know if any smoke detector companies make a relay for their smoke or c/o detectors for the burner hookup. i know the burglar alarms have a separate relay for stuff like that but i haven't heard anything about the hard wired 120 volt ones

 

[Gooserider]

This is mostly for MA residents, but I just had some interesting discussions on the phone today about CO detectors.

Our house currently has three hardwired, interconnected Firex smoke detectors - I replaced them last in 2000 w/ model FADC units. As part of going to the new stove, I'd like to replace them with combo CO / Smoke units. (Currently I have a couple of separate CO units to supplement the smokes - one in the living room w/ the stove, one in our bedroom) Apparently the MA legislature in it's infinite non-wisdom passed a code standard about 18 months ago that mandated use of a product that DID NOT EXIST :exclaim: :-S They required combo units use a photo-electric smoke detector, not an ionization detector, and the alarm had to either talk or have different tones for C/O and smoke.

I first learned about this about a year ago when I was initially wanting to upgrade. Firex said they didn't have anything that met the MA regs, but they were working on it - try back in a year. So I tried them again this morning, and was told they STILL didn't have a product that complied, however the tech was good enough to send me to BRK / First Alert, saying they did. I couldn't find anything on their website, so I called their tech support, and was told that they literally had just started shipping a compliant product this week. They are not compatible with the Firex units, so I will need to change the connectors and baseplates, but the wiring will work.

They said it is model number SC-7010-BV. Their local distributor is Holbrook Assoc. in Rockland, MA - phone # 781-871-0011. I called them, and they said they literally started sending them out to local vendors yesterday. They said my closest dealer was Granite City Electric in Billerica - phone # 978-458-3364. Granite City said the number was in their computer, but that they didn't have any yet - if I was told that Holbrook was shipping them yesterday, they would probably have them some time around the middle of next week, and would be selling them for $64.20 each...

I called the local FD, and was told that this was news to them, but that they were glad to hear it.

Gooserider

 

[fbelec]

hey goose

i guess what suppose to happen and what really does are two different things.
in my experience dealing with the building dept in the different towns and citys and the fire dept's,
the fire dept is always the last to know. if one officer in the fire dept. knows about something most time they are not on the same page as the next guy. brk and firex are the 2 top names. if i were to go to a customers house to replace smoke detectors i like to use brk because they seem to last longer than the firex. i see alot more old brk than firex. i never see a firex that is more than 10 or 12 years old, but i have seen brk that is 20 years old and still goes thru the smoke test fine.

what i am doing now is firex has out there right now smoke and carbon detectors that can be wired together. so i normally do what i am doing now on a job i got going is setup the smoke detectors like normal top and bottom of every staircase one in every bedroom and one heat detector over the kitchen cook stove. then add a carbon in the basement in the same room as the heating appliance and one or two depending on how long the hallway is in the upstairs hallway by the bedrooms. so to comply for the code the smoke at the top of the stairs on the floor with the bedrooms if it's anywhere within 10 feet of the bathroom has to be photo electric type sooooooooooo far until now they didn't make photo electric/ carbon detectors only ironazation/ carbon so you put in the photo electric smoke and add the 2nd carbon detector over by the bedrooms. there was some discussion about the code change for smoke detectors that elk brought up about all smoke detectors had to be photo electric. but the fire dept. has not stressed to us that that is what they wanted to see.
elk can you tell me what code number that was so that i can read it.
i think it was you elk.

 

[mayhem]

When I installed my stove this past spring I went out and bought a pair of combo CO/Smoke detectors (Kiddie I believe) to replace the smoke only detectors that I installed when the house was built in 2003. I called the inspector to clarify the code requirements as to how many i needed and where they were to be installed (I had at the time a total of 6 hardwired smokes...one in the common area of each floor near the stairs and one in each bedroom...I added a battery operated CO detector in the basement about 15 feet from the power vent exhausted oil burner)...I was told by the inspector that I was not obligated to install any CO detectors to accomodate the stove installation becuase my house met code as it was written as of 2003. I did not opt to return the detectors though...better safe than sorry. My combo detectors signal which alarm is which by voice and a siren, I ran each test as I installed them and verified that they integrated with the other smokes to set the whole system off instead of a zoning alarm. I further verified that they actually work by purchasing a CO test kit...it cost me $15 to test the two alarms, but now I know they work. CO is colorless and odorless...you don't know its there until you feel its effects, but they can come on so subtly that you may not know until you pass out...test your detectors once you have them.

I can tell you why alot of homeowners don't opt to get the detectors though...they're expensive. Sure a battery CO only is maybe $15-20, but if you have hardwired smokes already you probably don't want to keep screwing more detectors into your ceiling so you'll want to buy the hardwired combos...those suckers were $60 each. Small change compared to my family's lives, but if you don't make that connection its very easy to convince yourself that you don't need them because the cost is too high. Please note, I'm not personally suggesting that they're not worth the money...just listing a possible reason why people don' get them.

I have a powervent on my boiler...its about 5' above grade...I'm trying for the lfe of me to figure out how one could ever get plugged up from snowfall unless you shovel the thing under...mine gives off enough heat that the grass is visible during all but the heaviest winters.

 

[elkimmeg]

mayhem & fbelec To answer some concerns not all states have adopted 2006 International codes some are at 2000 some at 2003 and others at 2006

This code in MA has changed and been revised at least 8 times and there may be revisions beyond what I posted

To answer mayhem power venters got grouped in with direct vent appliances due to their location from the ground I too doubt 5' up it really is an issue and much of this language concerning sinage outside is exclusively a mass law not a code, however pushed on our desk for enforcement.

Do you know Insurance companies are pushing to have us enforce Osha Regs. I was at the open forum while the state was considering it So I raised my hand and asked if you are delegating the responsibility of Osha enforcement I do suppose you plan to fund it and educate us. I mean the room got silent. I guess nobody was supposed to ask that question neither that it gets passed without anyone q questioning the issue. You know the next response was the do I here any discussion? then the gavel is pounded done deal.. So far It has been placed under advisement They knew full well that if questioned a budget line item in the state budget was required.

At the same meeting Fire marshals are pushing for requiring combo photo and ion detectors. So I asked the fire marshal is it possible to make the ion one more sensitive to cover a broader range of detection ? this is after his big presentation Ion one were not providing the coverage Well He admitted they could sensitized to expand coverage. Again I think they never expected to be questioned and that they had done all the research and they are used to getting rubber stamped their recommendations. Again this proposal got shelved for advisement.

I'm amazed what will slips by without any questions asked till it comes time when we are told to enforce it

Fbelec Photo electric is not exclusive code yet but who know a meeting takes place and decisions are done Ion ones still can m be used in there usual locations

Did you hear this one The monoxide sensor in the room was supposed to be on the same circuit as the fuel burning appliance So now we that The fire marshals dictating code to Electricians

That got amended because No one representing the electrical code was present at the time of adoption there fore it was done without their input and they had to appeal that language