I agree with everyone's post on insulation. Cannot get more bang for the buck. But one thing I would remind people to do, b all the caulking, sealing, and insulation is to a radon test. Most people do not know that radon exposure accts for 40% of all lung cancer cases. Also, another thing to look out for is indoor humidity. Tight buildings are notorius for black mold and molds that cannot be seen.
Need some Opinions!! Insulate the Basement Ceiling??
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Some more temps to report. Basement like I said earlier was 53.9* near the ceiling, the living space floor above the same spot was 63.6*- thats 10* in about 4 inches or so of space. Dunno if that means anything to anyone, just thought I'd post it.
sstanis said:
Thanks for pointing out another safety factor many are not aware of. and it is true the tighter one makes their home the more radon becomes an issue.
The tighter we make our home the less air intrusuins and movement to dissipate radon presence Simple radon test can be purchased just to see if it is present ans is an issue than needs to be remediated
Weather man I know you have studied this convergence zones. That is the function happening at floor level Another reason to insulate to a reduction or isolation of the convergence zone,.
I agree with Rhone, that aviation wire and fiber glass insulation application, is not the best installation. I also argee that r value is lost because of this.
However even if 6" r19/r21 looses its system r value down to R12 you are going to feel the difference. and create a positive gain in your home preventing drafts and heat loss and manitaining more heat to the living space. The other factor is it will also sound deaden the floors noise on each side of the insulation will be deaded That may be the first thing you will notice,
A Note one other area not mentioned is the rear of the stairs. The stairs if enclosed by walls, is still a huge opening 3'/9' insulation should be installed if open stairs insulation has little effect
The next area is not to look at your cellar door today code requires it to be insulated and weatherstripped. Howmany here have ignored their cellar door that old door is one big leak
1/4 self stick foam tape applied to the jam can cut that leak down considerably coupled witha draft stop floor level weather stripping
Lets take this to another level what if take another 45 minutes and do this examine your basement ceiling look up anf lollow pipes and wires as they enter into your upper living space
Every drilled hole you see is a draft channel. I would caulk or stuff insulation in every single one especially around you shower or bathtub trap. The drafts you are stopping, is also fire prevention. Its these holes that lead to acceleration of fire to your upper levels or supply air to fire that that is in an upper level.
Thats right, the cellar ceiling fiberglass insulation creates a draft stop,and increased fire containment. It has saved lives affording valuable extra seconds for safe exit
Not only are you saving heat loss and draft prevention you just made your home safer. Even if you don'rt insulat right away if you take care of the sill area
and all the breaches in your floor and address you cellar door, you have gained a lot. You will notice bathrooms being warmer once those pipe holes and traps are stuffed with insulation
If you draft stopp you will make any insulation that much more effective
.
I agree with Rhone, that aviation wire and fiber glass insulation application, is not the best installation. I also argee that r value is lost because of this.
However even if 6" r19/r21 looses its system r value down to R12 you are going to feel the difference. and create a positive gain in your home preventing drafts and heat loss and manitaining more heat to the living space. The other factor is it will also sound deaden the floors noise on each side of the insulation will be deaded That may be the first thing you will notice,
A Note one other area not mentioned is the rear of the stairs. The stairs if enclosed by walls, is still a huge opening 3'/9' insulation should be installed if open stairs insulation has little effect
The next area is not to look at your cellar door today code requires it to be insulated and weatherstripped. Howmany here have ignored their cellar door that old door is one big leak
1/4 self stick foam tape applied to the jam can cut that leak down considerably coupled witha draft stop floor level weather stripping
Lets take this to another level what if take another 45 minutes and do this examine your basement ceiling look up anf lollow pipes and wires as they enter into your upper living space
Every drilled hole you see is a draft channel. I would caulk or stuff insulation in every single one especially around you shower or bathtub trap. The drafts you are stopping, is also fire prevention. Its these holes that lead to acceleration of fire to your upper levels or supply air to fire that that is in an upper level.
Thats right, the cellar ceiling fiberglass insulation creates a draft stop,and increased fire containment. It has saved lives affording valuable extra seconds for safe exit
Not only are you saving heat loss and draft prevention you just made your home safer. Even if you don'rt insulat right away if you take care of the sill area
and all the breaches in your floor and address you cellar door, you have gained a lot. You will notice bathrooms being warmer once those pipe holes and traps are stuffed with insulation
If you draft stopp you will make any insulation that much more effective
.
Planned on addressing all the through floor connections and wires etc. but thanks for reiforcing the basement door issue. Dont laugh but mine is hollow with absolutly no weatherstripping. I guess thats next. Man I never knew I had a house with so many air leaks, but the detective work to find them all is kinda fun.
So just how did you do "the ole draft test"? I have heard everything from walking around with a stinky incense stick burning to just feeling for it.
options for hollow core cellar doors weather strip them as I mentioned in a proir post but one could also apply styrofoam insulation to the back side to gain r value
If one purched a piece of ridgid syryofoam pannel they could cut it down and apply it to the backside of the door tacking it in the cornors and applying construction
adheisive with a caulking gun.
What about changing the door most interior doors are setup for 1 3/8" jams and most insulated doors are 1 3/4" so that is not going to work ou too well plus it is time consuming cutting out hinge locationsand getting ti to fit right. Plus if never doing it it will be a project one might want to have your wife entertain the kids while doing it, I'm sure a few swears will be uttered.
the next possibility is to remove the existing door and install an exrerior all weather stripped pre hung exterior door If all things went smooth it can be done in 2 hours but the exterior door has a build in threshold and one might have to cutout some existing flooring to make it fit You just added another hour to the job and cutting the floor neatly takes skill. If you have head room it may be possible to use a piece of pine spacer and set the door threshold over the existing floor. requiring no cuts and leaving a professional looking job
MNow that you are in the leak detection mode take a look at your existing entry doors also you existing windows That same foam self stick weather stripping could seal the bottom leak in windows where the sash makes contact with the sill.
Got a n attic pull don staire what about applying the foam weather stripping to that seal? Even if it is a hatchway in the closet its a leak.
Now if you do decide to buy a sheet of styrofoam. The left over pieces can be used under the stairs of your pull dow attic access glued to the plywood assembled in pieces if necessary I can take a digital photo to illustrate what I' talking about
All esterior wall electrical outlets leak there are syryofoam covers that can be installed under the plate that eliminates drafts
Honey don't bother me I'm tightening up the home this weekend ... Or to the wives here , hubby might need a honey to do list . a lot of inexpensive things can be done to stops drafts and hold heat in. like I said supplemental heat is one part of the independance of fossil fuel, keeping the heat in and cold out is the other part.
71 degrees in here and my furnace has yet to come on for heating this year. I still have 3/4 tank of oil I purchased in Aug. The oil used is for hot water.
If one purched a piece of ridgid syryofoam pannel they could cut it down and apply it to the backside of the door tacking it in the cornors and applying construction
adheisive with a caulking gun.
What about changing the door most interior doors are setup for 1 3/8" jams and most insulated doors are 1 3/4" so that is not going to work ou too well plus it is time consuming cutting out hinge locationsand getting ti to fit right. Plus if never doing it it will be a project one might want to have your wife entertain the kids while doing it, I'm sure a few swears will be uttered.
the next possibility is to remove the existing door and install an exrerior all weather stripped pre hung exterior door If all things went smooth it can be done in 2 hours but the exterior door has a build in threshold and one might have to cutout some existing flooring to make it fit You just added another hour to the job and cutting the floor neatly takes skill. If you have head room it may be possible to use a piece of pine spacer and set the door threshold over the existing floor. requiring no cuts and leaving a professional looking job
MNow that you are in the leak detection mode take a look at your existing entry doors also you existing windows That same foam self stick weather stripping could seal the bottom leak in windows where the sash makes contact with the sill.
Got a n attic pull don staire what about applying the foam weather stripping to that seal? Even if it is a hatchway in the closet its a leak.
Now if you do decide to buy a sheet of styrofoam. The left over pieces can be used under the stairs of your pull dow attic access glued to the plywood assembled in pieces if necessary I can take a digital photo to illustrate what I' talking about
All esterior wall electrical outlets leak there are syryofoam covers that can be installed under the plate that eliminates drafts
Honey don't bother me I'm tightening up the home this weekend ... Or to the wives here , hubby might need a honey to do list . a lot of inexpensive things can be done to stops drafts and hold heat in. like I said supplemental heat is one part of the independance of fossil fuel, keeping the heat in and cold out is the other part.
71 degrees in here and my furnace has yet to come on for heating this year. I still have 3/4 tank of oil I purchased in Aug. The oil used is for hot water.
What do you think of the "bubble wrap" insulation for use on doors? It comes in a roll and is basically two sheets of a reflective material with a layer of strong bubble wrap (like used in packaging only stronger) in between. I was thinking of getting a roll for my cellar door.
homebrewz said:
Per ELK, its a bit of a scam, doesn't actually deliver the claimed R-values by a very large margin.
Gooserider
Unfortunately I have cat door cut into the basement door cause the little monsters litter box is in the basement. Replacing doors is on the list. I even have an upgraded better sealing cat door that needs to be installed in the basement door.
johann said:
They are real high tech, but I've seen super fancy cat doors that seal quite well - they have an RFID tag (not sure if it's one of those injected pet-ID tags or in a collar) on the pet, and a reader in the door. The door is quite solidly insulated, and is magnetically latched except when a pet with the right tag comes up to it. Supposed to be good for keeping the pet from bringing home uninvited guests, and better weather proofing.
Don't know how well they work in practice or where to find them. Probably expensive...
Another approach I've seen is a "pet alcove" which acts like a minature airlock. Make an insulated tunnel slightly longer than the pet and put a snug sealing flap on each end. I've heard that is also fairly effective at keeping down the air leaks.
Gooserider
I actually saw those in a skymall catalog for basement windows. The woman keeps wanting to get an RFID door for the guy to the outside or a window airlock or something. I keep telling her no though. I don't want him outside at night, nor coming and going as he pleases, he's spoiled enough as it is 
.
.
I put the cat door to the basement in the stairway wall. I thought it would be a long step for the cat if I only cut into the panel of the door and not the frame, plus it's easier to fix the wall. It's working out well.
I don't believe code allows one to just glue styrofoam up willy nilly, and that it needs to be covered with a fire resistant material such as 1/2" sheetrock.
I don't believe code allows one to just glue styrofoam up willy nilly, and that it needs to be covered with a fire resistant material such as 1/2" sheetrock.
- Nov 21, 2005
- 827
If your basement is lingering around 55F in winter time, do not spend much time or effort on insulating the floor. Redoing the calculations at R5 and 55F you'll save yourself around 1/2 cord of wood/year. The general rule is, anything that pays for itself in 5 years or less is a wise investment. So, you don't want to spend more than $375 to do this, and that includes the money spent insulating & sealing the sill plate/rim joist area which is a definite must, that is a notoriously bad area and any improvement there usually is very noticeable.
Air sealing it doesn't matter if you seal the floors or the walls in your basement, just one or the other will do. Since you have old tongue & groove floors you'll find it much easier sealing the walls but make sure you foam around any plumbing & wire penetrations you find in the floor anyway. The foam is only good to around 240F so, if you have steam heat it may not be a good idea to use expanding foam around your heating penetrations. In the future, air seal your attic. That's the single most important place that will reduce drafts & improve comfort in the main living area & basement because of what's called the Stack effect. It causes hot air to want to escape out your attic in winter, drawing in cold air in your basement and main area that your heating system has to work harder to replace, and in summer it reverses and wants to push hot air through any penetrations in your ceiling pushing cold air out your main living area and basement causing your AC to work harder in summer. The next best place to reduce it, is the basement, lastly followed by the main living area. I know it seems strange that air sealing the attic & basement has the biggest impact on reducing drafts and improving comfort in the main living area but... that's how it goes!
Air sealing it doesn't matter if you seal the floors or the walls in your basement, just one or the other will do. Since you have old tongue & groove floors you'll find it much easier sealing the walls but make sure you foam around any plumbing & wire penetrations you find in the floor anyway. The foam is only good to around 240F so, if you have steam heat it may not be a good idea to use expanding foam around your heating penetrations. In the future, air seal your attic. That's the single most important place that will reduce drafts & improve comfort in the main living area & basement because of what's called the Stack effect. It causes hot air to want to escape out your attic in winter, drawing in cold air in your basement and main area that your heating system has to work harder to replace, and in summer it reverses and wants to push hot air through any penetrations in your ceiling pushing cold air out your main living area and basement causing your AC to work harder in summer. The next best place to reduce it, is the basement, lastly followed by the main living area. I know it seems strange that air sealing the attic & basement has the biggest impact on reducing drafts and improving comfort in the main living area but... that's how it goes!
Might I add to Rhome information, the standard of sealing holes wire penetration pipes ect. is ASTM-E standard 136.
This standard is for draft-stopping these holes or cavities for fire protection .to meet the standard thre sealant must withstand 1200
degrees, commonly sold in caulking tubes. Home Cheapo sell the 3m brand other home centers hardware store ,sell the Dap brand ,
then there is the Boss brand .The 240 degree foam will seal the hole pervent drafts but melt out when exposed to a fire
I call this killing two birds with a stone preventing drafts and enhancing fire protection..
Rhome look at floor insulation in terms of payback money based upon r value I don't dispute his calculations
But he missed the fact Fiberglass insulation also adds to contaimnet and increases your fire protection Plus it also acts as a buffer in a temperature convergence zone. Finally it also sound deadens the floor area and to boot it insulates.. In any controled experiment it takes many reading of data, under different conditions to determine an average, to base decisions.
One temp reading at 55 degrees is not enough info to draw conclusions. One should consider the outside temp, whether the home has full sun exposureand the amount of wind. Last Friday Saturday we had up to 45 mph cold winds and cold temps. I am willing to bet they would influence the temps take during that time. Friday will be an acid test here to jugde stove preformance -20 wind chills bellow zerro at night and only making it up to single digits. That extreme condition should be factored and temps read
Temps read should be taken after the sill and box plate are insulated.. Did we mention pipe insulation of duct insulation? Could the 55 degrees be effected by far too much transmission loss of the heating system?..
Rhome we have to wiki some of this data the past week we have seen post where the wood stoves are not providing the heat the owners expected. It is my contention , the cellar ceilings sills rim joist contribute to lack of stove preformance or persieved preformance
This standard is for draft-stopping these holes or cavities for fire protection .to meet the standard thre sealant must withstand 1200
degrees, commonly sold in caulking tubes. Home Cheapo sell the 3m brand other home centers hardware store ,sell the Dap brand ,
then there is the Boss brand .The 240 degree foam will seal the hole pervent drafts but melt out when exposed to a fire
I call this killing two birds with a stone preventing drafts and enhancing fire protection..
Rhome look at floor insulation in terms of payback money based upon r value I don't dispute his calculations
But he missed the fact Fiberglass insulation also adds to contaimnet and increases your fire protection Plus it also acts as a buffer in a temperature convergence zone. Finally it also sound deadens the floor area and to boot it insulates.. In any controled experiment it takes many reading of data, under different conditions to determine an average, to base decisions.
One temp reading at 55 degrees is not enough info to draw conclusions. One should consider the outside temp, whether the home has full sun exposureand the amount of wind. Last Friday Saturday we had up to 45 mph cold winds and cold temps. I am willing to bet they would influence the temps take during that time. Friday will be an acid test here to jugde stove preformance -20 wind chills bellow zerro at night and only making it up to single digits. That extreme condition should be factored and temps read
Temps read should be taken after the sill and box plate are insulated.. Did we mention pipe insulation of duct insulation? Could the 55 degrees be effected by far too much transmission loss of the heating system?..
Rhome we have to wiki some of this data the past week we have seen post where the wood stoves are not providing the heat the owners expected. It is my contention , the cellar ceilings sills rim joist contribute to lack of stove preformance or persieved preformance
homebrewz said:
yes bubble wrap is an improvement over plain plastic... I can't tell you if it is worth the extra money for the limited r-value it provides.
In the insulation industry a huge stake out is happening. the foam, fiberglas, celeuos, and bubble wrap, manufactures are compeeting agains one another. On the federal level
Energy codes want to increase r-value requirements. One purposed code, is to increase the duct insulation in unconditioned spaces from r 5,0 to r 8.0
The fiberglass contingent is all for this the bubble wrap dead against it as it would require double wrapping the ducts with a system air space to obtain r 8.0.
Even today single layer bubble wrap cost more than fiber glass but is so much easier to work with no itching required. the r8.0 would price bubble wrap out of the market.
each group has taken the others products and examined them to find flaws bubble wrap people pointer out that fiberglass foil face insulation looses it reflective value after a year due to normal dust and possible condensation attaching it to the foil surface. the same arguement are made that the instalation process is flawed wrapped to tight the fiberglass is compressed and reduces its r value then ther is the cost anyalsis is the increased r value cost effective? What did Owens corning and John Mansvile do? They paid a private certified ASTM-E lab to test the bubble wrap. It was discovered the stated R 4.2 per layer did not afford R4.2 but tested to R 1.1 They also discovered that the flame spread claims were woefully inagequate and the bubble wrap failed the cornor flame test
The battle is on going each manufacture is lobbying for codes to strenghten their market position I wittnessed this debate while attending our state code provisions adoption hearings. All flaws of all manufactures products were pointed out after sitting there one wonders if any of these products should be used and wonder where or how manufacture stamps or r-values are
One final ironic tid bit .The fiber glass industry was addressing the poly arguements. It seems the poly records it r value in 3/4 construction using 4" when the nonminal 2/4 is 3.5"
the poly wall R- values are inflated by 1/2" Poly industry counters the fiber glass rvalues ar flawed due to the application process, then the fiberglass industry point out application flaws of the polly and on and on it went. It got to the point nothing could be believed
I don't disagree, except that the cost of fiberglass has really increased this year. I used both bubble wrap on ducts with an 1.5" spacers and the really expensive, quilted duct blanket (fiberglass) insulation. The bubble wrap was used on the harder to wrap ducts. It is way easier and cleaner to use, but keeping the air space is harder. In a retrofit situation I would use what is easiest for your skill level. Even if you don't achieve R8, it will be an improvement. The really good quilted insulation is harder to get in large rolls. None at our local home warehouse boxes. That's why I started out with the bubblewrap. We also did a long duct run in the neighbors house with bubble wrap. Their kid's room was just blowing cool air out of the vent. After the bubblewrap, the difference was immediately apparent, so it is effective if done well.
Whatever you use, just be sure to use good metal tape for the seams. Duct tape is not appropriate for ducts. As the glue dries out, it turns to dust after a few years.
Whatever you use, just be sure to use good metal tape for the seams. Duct tape is not appropriate for ducts. As the glue dries out, it turns to dust after a few years.
Luckily I have no ducts, all hot water baseboard heating on natural Gas, all the pipes wrapped in that grey foam pipe insulation. As for the passages through the subfloor i'm afraid its too late, I already spray foamed them. Going to finish the sill area this weekend. Real good cold snap coming so I'll be able to feel the leaks better then. I'll also take some more temps readings when Its around 10* outside. Thats a cold night for around here.
- Nov 21, 2005
- 827
Oops, it sounds like I'm saying don't insulate the floors. If wxman can foam the penetrations, seal the air leaks, do the sill plate/rim joist area, and afterward has enough money to purchase fiberglass for the floors with batt insulation and maintain the cost for this entire project under $375 (actually, it's more like it $415 with the 10% tax credit) it's a wise investment and should be done. As Elk says, doing it also increases sound deadening and improves the safety incase of fire so that factors in there as well but it's a project I can easily see reaching $500+ which puts you over the limit for a wise payback. Some calls we have to determine if it's wise or not, my insert won't have paid for itself in 5 years or less but I still feel it a good investment.
For air sealing around the rim joist/sill plate area I personally like to use Silicone in the toothpaste tubes. The spray polyurethane foam is very difficult to use in that area since it has to be dispensed upside down. It's just very difficult to be up on a ladder, using the trigger with one hand, the other directing the tube, and holding it upside down you can only manuever it between the floor joists which are 16" oc. That system, I couldn't reach far enough and use both hands to do more than 1 bay at a time. So, I had to pull everything out, climb down the ladder, move it over 16", climb back up, and repeat. With the silicone in toothpaste tubes, I can do 3 bays rather easily before having to shift the ladder over and silicone is cheaper. Make sure you vacuum the bays & sill plate area before you apply regardless which you use.
For air sealing around the rim joist/sill plate area I personally like to use Silicone in the toothpaste tubes. The spray polyurethane foam is very difficult to use in that area since it has to be dispensed upside down. It's just very difficult to be up on a ladder, using the trigger with one hand, the other directing the tube, and holding it upside down you can only manuever it between the floor joists which are 16" oc. That system, I couldn't reach far enough and use both hands to do more than 1 bay at a time. So, I had to pull everything out, climb down the ladder, move it over 16", climb back up, and repeat. With the silicone in toothpaste tubes, I can do 3 bays rather easily before having to shift the ladder over and silicone is cheaper. Make sure you vacuum the bays & sill plate area before you apply regardless which you use.
Luckily (unluckily) my basement is only 6'3" so I can stand and do it all. Plus the foam I got can be sprayed upright, 2 cans in so far, leaving the other 2 for a real cold night to check for bad drafts
What if the basement is finished?
Most of our basement was finished by the previous owner, with paneled (w/ real boards) walls over fiberglass bats, and sheetrock ceilings with small amounts of fiberglass shoved into the bay cavities. (at least in the case of the one or two bays I opened up when putting in the network wiring...) There is no insulation in between the sheetrock and the ceiling. About 1/2 the duct work is in the ceiling between the joists, and half is below the ceiling. The part that is below the ceiling has no insulation on the metal ducts. The basement runs 5-10 degrees cooler than the rest of the house, which with this weather seems to be holding in the mid to upper 60's with the woodstove cranking, but not using the furnace.
I don't want to tear down the sheetrock, but there is a trim molding board around the perimiter - Would it be worth trying to pull that board down, and drill a small hole in the rock into each joist space, and give each one a blast of a high expanding foam (hoping to fill the sill cavity)?
Any other particularly cost effective treatments that don't involve major surgery?
Gooserider
Most of our basement was finished by the previous owner, with paneled (w/ real boards) walls over fiberglass bats, and sheetrock ceilings with small amounts of fiberglass shoved into the bay cavities. (at least in the case of the one or two bays I opened up when putting in the network wiring...) There is no insulation in between the sheetrock and the ceiling. About 1/2 the duct work is in the ceiling between the joists, and half is below the ceiling. The part that is below the ceiling has no insulation on the metal ducts. The basement runs 5-10 degrees cooler than the rest of the house, which with this weather seems to be holding in the mid to upper 60's with the woodstove cranking, but not using the furnace.
I don't want to tear down the sheetrock, but there is a trim molding board around the perimiter - Would it be worth trying to pull that board down, and drill a small hole in the rock into each joist space, and give each one a blast of a high expanding foam (hoping to fill the sill cavity)?
Any other particularly cost effective treatments that don't involve major surgery?
Gooserider
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