Is it cost effecting to insulate my basement ceiling now that I'm running an insert for alot of my heating?? 10-12hrs /day? Any and all opionions welcome!
Need some Opinions!! Insulate the Basement Ceiling??
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FWIW, IMHO you are much better off sealing any basement leaks and then go about insulating the basement walls unless they are continually damp. There can be a lot more benefits from this approach.
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wxman said:
Insufficient data - what's the house setup?
Where's the insert?
How much heat are you loosing, where is it going?
How much is it likely to cost you to insulate?
What are you paying for fuel in the insert?
Lots of questions, you aren't giving anything like enough to answer, sort of like me asking you what tomorrows weather will be w/o telling you where I live...
Gooserider
according to HUD floor insulation accounts for saving as much as 20% of heat loss. Begreen is correct to also include draft provention around your sills.
notorious for leakage Energy tax credits can still be taken for insulation or energy improvements. Minium to consider is R19 All pipes and duct work should be insulated.
why loose so much heat/ energy in tranmission?.
I have said this many times supplememtal heat is only one part of energy independence, keeping the heat and preventing the cold from entering is more important
notorious for leakage Energy tax credits can still be taken for insulation or energy improvements. Minium to consider is R19 All pipes and duct work should be insulated.
why loose so much heat/ energy in tranmission?.
I have said this many times supplememtal heat is only one part of energy independence, keeping the heat and preventing the cold from entering is more important
Ok, here's some more info.
The house is a Cape style, About 1000 Sqft on ground floor and 500 on the 2nd. The basement is the size of the first floor ecxept for about 150sqft thats in a really tight crawl space about 20ft away from the insert and of cinder block construction. The insert is on an outside wall in the livingroom. I am burning a VC Dutchwest 2500 insert and paying 150.00 for a seasoned delivered cord. I have no idea how to measure how much heat i'm losing, I guess that's why I asked this question. The stove when well loaded gives me about a 4-5 hr burn to a nice bed of coals. Thats heated the house to 70* last night when it was 24* and wind blowing. Let me know if you need more info.
Thanks!!
The house is a Cape style, About 1000 Sqft on ground floor and 500 on the 2nd. The basement is the size of the first floor ecxept for about 150sqft thats in a really tight crawl space about 20ft away from the insert and of cinder block construction. The insert is on an outside wall in the livingroom. I am burning a VC Dutchwest 2500 insert and paying 150.00 for a seasoned delivered cord. I have no idea how to measure how much heat i'm losing, I guess that's why I asked this question. The stove when well loaded gives me about a 4-5 hr burn to a nice bed of coals. Thats heated the house to 70* last night when it was 24* and wind blowing. Let me know if you need more info.
Thanks!!
Hi wx,
YOu have a small house so that insert should heat things well. 4-5 hrs seems normal. That is what I get with my stove. If I clamp it down a little longer, but less heat per hour, so the house cools down faster.
I have had hard foam insulatation sprayed in the basement last spring (sill plates). Best thing I ever did. Not only can I get a tax brake for the investment, the investment was small ($1,150 for a 26x67 basement of which 22x26 was an impossible access crawlspace). I completely illiminated any cold infiltration, draft etc. The house stays a LOT warmer and feels more comfortable.
I suggest getting a couple of quotes to see what it would cost you to get the same work done. See if LI prices are similar to mine and what the differences are. My quotes were 20% different.
More importantly though: stop any airleaks into the house. Get caulking, weather stripping, etc. That does more and costs less than anything else you can do.
Thanks
Carpniels
YOu have a small house so that insert should heat things well. 4-5 hrs seems normal. That is what I get with my stove. If I clamp it down a little longer, but less heat per hour, so the house cools down faster.
I have had hard foam insulatation sprayed in the basement last spring (sill plates). Best thing I ever did. Not only can I get a tax brake for the investment, the investment was small ($1,150 for a 26x67 basement of which 22x26 was an impossible access crawlspace). I completely illiminated any cold infiltration, draft etc. The house stays a LOT warmer and feels more comfortable.
I suggest getting a couple of quotes to see what it would cost you to get the same work done. See if LI prices are similar to mine and what the differences are. My quotes were 20% different.
More importantly though: stop any airleaks into the house. Get caulking, weather stripping, etc. That does more and costs less than anything else you can do.
Thanks
Carpniels
Thanks for the input. With my experience the price here on LI would more than likely be about 2x what it is upstate. I was thinking more on the lines of fiberglass batting. Maybe 500-600 dollars worth to fill my space at the Home Cheapo. I've been tightening up the living space. The house is 80 years old but has all new windows but original leaky doors. Weather stipped the help outa them last night and stopped a lot of cold air. Just thinking that the house should be warmer than 70* and maybe do to the basement air coming up now that I'm creating negative pressure in the livingspace? I cant see how insulating the basement walls will help that much as I'm not trying to heat that space. But you guys are the experts and thats why I'm here. So I guess I'm back to my original question. Is it worth it to insulate my basement ceiling?? Am I going to get the results i'm looking for?
How is the insert working? What are the normal operating temperatures it runs at?
The preference is to caulk and insulate the basement sill and walls. You'll get some benefit by just doing the basement ceiling, but far more benefit by addressing the individual issues and thinking warm basement. If you just do the ceiling, you may see up to a 20% gain, depending on how leaky the basement is, but at the risk of frozen pipes and more work for the hot water system.
A good way to think about this is that you are not heating the house, you are replacing the heat that the house is losing. Fixing the leaky door helped, fixing other leaks will too. Also look at the windows. How much glass is in the house, how good are the windows and are they all thermopaned or with storm windows? Have you considered adding night curtains? How much insulation is there in the attic and in the wall?
In the crawlspace, if there is no exposed plumbing, go ahead and insulate the floor, then consider an insulated ponywall to block that area off. If there is plumbing, it will need to be thoroughly and very well insulated first.
The preference is to caulk and insulate the basement sill and walls. You'll get some benefit by just doing the basement ceiling, but far more benefit by addressing the individual issues and thinking warm basement. If you just do the ceiling, you may see up to a 20% gain, depending on how leaky the basement is, but at the risk of frozen pipes and more work for the hot water system.
A good way to think about this is that you are not heating the house, you are replacing the heat that the house is losing. Fixing the leaky door helped, fixing other leaks will too. Also look at the windows. How much glass is in the house, how good are the windows and are they all thermopaned or with storm windows? Have you considered adding night curtains? How much insulation is there in the attic and in the wall?
In the crawlspace, if there is no exposed plumbing, go ahead and insulate the floor, then consider an insulated ponywall to block that area off. If there is plumbing, it will need to be thoroughly and very well insulated first.
BG thanks for the input, now i have more questions. I have 95% of the hot water pipes wrapped. One big problem is that there is one sink in the crawl space area and I dont think I can get in there (really tight) Its never really that cold in my basement. Never took an actual reading but cant be below 50* ever down there. I'll stick a thermometer down there tonight. Will insulating the basement ceiling really make the basement that much colder?? I have only 3 small windows (1'x2'? and no bilco door in the basement. If I did everything but the crawl space would it not be productive or would it only help if I did all the spaces? I have filled alot of the sills with expanding foam and other than the crawl space area I have it pretty tight I think.
Oh, the insert seems to work fine. Its got no real good place for a thermometer but I have one on the corner of the door. Normally runs at about 400*-450* Had it at 500*-550* last night, musta been some better wood. Mostly burn red oak that I bought, not the driest but still plenty dry. Have some that once in a while just doesnt seem to be totally dry. I'm not a wood expert and I know there are some other species mixed in.
I live south of you in northern NJ, with my gas boiler off in the basement and just my gas water heater which has a thick insulation on it, my basement only has gotten to about a low of 39deg so far from a thermometer that is right by a basement window. I've insulated the entire sill plate with R19 leftover from my attic walls so it is somewhat insulated and most of my pipes are insulated with plain polyethelyene foam. My basement floors are uninsulated and I was considering the same thing with some leftover R19 but might hold off for now.
Jay
Jay
BASEMENT FLOOR?? You mean basement ceiling no? Also help me with some terminolgy. The sill is where the foundation meets the house right? Did you jut put a run of batting around the outside edge? and leave the rest undone?? that sounds like a good idea to cut down on some airflow.
oops, mean basement ceiling... I could insulate the floor so I could walk on it barefoot (if not for the fiberglass)... Oh, that would be comfy. Yes, the sill is the part of the exterior wall above the foundation (in my case, concrete) but before the drywall and floor for the main living area. Mine is about 8" tall and wraps around the entire house... My basement case windows and any exterior faucets and stuff are drilled through this and caulked up and now insulated. Especially if you have water pipes or hydronic heating pipes around the sill plates (pretty common), insulating the sill is a good idea...
Jay
p.s Actually, I think I am also west of you, not south. Riverhead is in Long Island, isn't it?
wxman said:
Is the boiler insulated too? The lowest temp in the basement will depend on how it is designed. How much is underground vs above ground? If it is say, 1/2 above ground and the boiler never comes on because the stove is doing all the heavy hauling, it could get down in the 30's down there. If the boiler kicks in regularly, maybe it will stay above 40. But heat will continually wicking out of that space until there is a thermal barrier to slow it down. Whatever you do, design with the coldest possible local temp in mind. In your area, will the basement stay above 35 degrees if it is -15 outside? If yes, then insulating the basement ceiling may work well.
You have my sympathy for the crawlspace. That is one of the major reasons why I raised the house. I couldn't really go forward with insulation plans, reducting, etc. until that was done. Noone could work in several areas of our crawlspace, not even a child could. Another approach for the crawlspace would be to consider insulating the outside walls if the foundation wall are well done. In the old days, we used to put a burlap screen about 18" from the outside perimeter and filled the gap with leaves. I've seen haybales stacked around the foundation for the same reason.
Thanks, My basement is about 6-1/2' deep with only the top 12" exposed. Coldest it gets here is maybe 0* and thats rare. I'm on Long Island the the ocean prevents those real cold nights. Looks like I'll concentrate on the sills first. What was the cost of raising your house?? I'll also experiment with temps down there. Wanna make sure I'm not colder down there than I think.
- Nov 21, 2005
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Don't use fiberglass no matter what you do it's particularly bad in the attic and much worse put in a ceiling. To get its rated R-Value it can't be compressed, needs square edges that fit tight, no channels for air flow, has to be cut precisely around objects, and have no air spaces around it. In a ceiling situation you're compressing it, you're not making the edges flat, and increase the air gaps. My new energy books came out with the results of their extensive Fiberglass tests and in ceilings where the issues with fiberglass are less than a floor the results are that Fiberglass in tests acted more like 30-50% their rated R-Value. Now, a ceiling situation is even worse, and if you've priced fiberglass lately last I saw it's over doubled in price the past couple years. Also, don't use fiberglass in the sill plate/rim joist area if you can avoid it. It's good there if it's excess and you didn't have a place for it anywhere else but fiberglass is one of the worst types of insulation for preventing air flow through it and that's a notoriously leaky area. Next, that area is extremely cold and fiberglass's R-Value lowers the bigger the temperature difference. The more you need the Fiberglass to insulate, the worse it does. Fiberglass settles ever so slightly, if you just "place" it in that area, it'll settle slightly and pull away making it about useless after a year. You can use the fiberglass brackets to hold it in place, but they compress it and the edges aren't flush hurting it's r-value, or you can oversize the pieces and try to jam them in there, but in that case you're compressing it, and not giving it good contact, there too hindering its effectiveness.
I have a program that calculates this kind of thing, tell me what you think your average basement air temperature is at the ceiling, and take a measurement of what the air temperature is at your floor in your house and I can tell you what the effects of the insulation should have.
I have a program that calculates this kind of thing, tell me what you think your average basement air temperature is at the ceiling, and take a measurement of what the air temperature is at your floor in your house and I can tell you what the effects of the insulation should have.
wxman said:
Sounds like a good start. It cost a small fortune to raise this old house and I'm not 100% done yet. The costs make spraying foam on those walls seem like pocket change. From what you've told us, that sounds like it's worth getting some quotes for the job. Though I would replace any old piping (ie: galvanized) in the crawlspace area first, especially if it's going to get encased in the foam.
Wow, info overload. I'll get the temp readings for you. What other type of DIY insulations do you recommend. I really would hate to pay someone to insulate down there. Never knew that fiberglass was such a bad insulator in batts. Learn sumtin new everyday.
BG. All the piping in the house was replace 4 years ago along with the windows and boiler and roof right before I bought it. Maybe I'll just live with situation I have now and tighten her up around the sills. Raising my house is out of the question i think. I'll dig the crawlspace deeper where the pipes go if I need to so I can get in there as a last resort.. That part has a dirt floor. Should not be too bad becasue there are only pipes in one spot and its about a 12 foot run at most.
Good job on the piping Wx. There are DIY kits for foaming if you're adventuresome. I looked into that option. but shelved it when I found that Liquid Nails made a construction adhesive that worked well with the insulation panels. FWIW, it's hard to beat it for sealing in cracks, etc.
As to the crawlspace, perhaps it would be easier to bust an opening and dig it out from the outside??
As to the crawlspace, perhaps it would be easier to bust an opening and dig it out from the outside??
HiWX,
The idea is not to insulate (like you are trying with fiberglass mats), but to stop the air flow. As rhonemas says, fiberglass does not do that.
I actually had two insulation firms come in and evaluate my house and basement. I originally wanted to insulate my basement ceiling (just like you) but both advised against it. Both independently advised hard spray foam insulation. Just for the sill plate and the top of the basement wall (where the holes in the blocks are). I went with the lowest quote ($1,150) and they did a fantastic job. And it did as well as the promised.
Get some quotes; you might be surprised at what it costs. Wait til spring, because that is when they are not too busy and prices are lower.
Carpniels
PS. If you ever build a house or addition, get a quote for soft foam spray insulation. That is cheaper than hard foam, but it is also a good insulator as well a moisture barrier. You can do that instead of fiberglass in the wall and ceiling and you do not need housewrap anymore (ever seen the current prices on that? Plus installation. You will save all that).
The idea is not to insulate (like you are trying with fiberglass mats), but to stop the air flow. As rhonemas says, fiberglass does not do that.
I actually had two insulation firms come in and evaluate my house and basement. I originally wanted to insulate my basement ceiling (just like you) but both advised against it. Both independently advised hard spray foam insulation. Just for the sill plate and the top of the basement wall (where the holes in the blocks are). I went with the lowest quote ($1,150) and they did a fantastic job. And it did as well as the promised.
Get some quotes; you might be surprised at what it costs. Wait til spring, because that is when they are not too busy and prices are lower.
Carpniels
PS. If you ever build a house or addition, get a quote for soft foam spray insulation. That is cheaper than hard foam, but it is also a good insulator as well a moisture barrier. You can do that instead of fiberglass in the wall and ceiling and you do not need housewrap anymore (ever seen the current prices on that? Plus installation. You will save all that).
Thanks for all the input guys. Looks like I'm gonna get some expanding foam and hit all the bad spots (if there are any) on the sills. I'll also get some temp readings. Seems flow is the key but it still kinda goes against my logic with all the 50 degree air sitting 3 inches below my feet. My wife complains of the floor being colder all the time, but I guess insulating it is not gonna help that. Thanks again guys.
Rhom is only telling you part of the story Ever try to remodel of repaor a leak in foam can turn a minor project into a nighmare
Pretty hard to get to a wire encased in 6" of foam even worse a pipe leak. Makes for getting wires back to the pannell a real nightmare for future expansion.
Rhone is right to an extent about poorly installed fiberglass But when care and good installation practices are used a Homeowner can do a cost effective job.
As for remodeling of repairing a pipe you can not beat the convience of removing one batt. Remodelers it is easy to avoid wires or pipes that can be seen
Every thing we do we have to make compromises with budget and materials
You are correct $500 at Home Cheapo and you will notice a huge difference.
This will give you the most bang for the $$$ I'm not saying it is the best way but one within tha capabilities on many homeowners. Naturally the foundation should be insulatied form the outside
that is the most effective way then because outside is not feasiable after backfilling ,then inside, but at that point no water passage threw has been addressed where it counts outside.
We all wish we had a spare $25k for a masonry heater but we don't, so we make do within our budget for most that means good sill sealing and fiberglass cellar ceilings
I have to agree you are being bombarded with info way beyond basic needs..
Rhome how many homes have you wittnessed and passed energy star compliance with fiberglass insulation walls floors and ceilings/ Me ,I seen over 150 and I can post the compliance certificates
Someone must be doing something right these homes are blatter tested leak tested an all exceed energy star guidelines
does you book tell how this can happen is real in the field situations? It can be done I also wittnessed infirred scans of fiberglass homes done right
Pretty hard to get to a wire encased in 6" of foam even worse a pipe leak. Makes for getting wires back to the pannell a real nightmare for future expansion.
Rhone is right to an extent about poorly installed fiberglass But when care and good installation practices are used a Homeowner can do a cost effective job.
As for remodeling of repairing a pipe you can not beat the convience of removing one batt. Remodelers it is easy to avoid wires or pipes that can be seen
Every thing we do we have to make compromises with budget and materials
You are correct $500 at Home Cheapo and you will notice a huge difference.
This will give you the most bang for the $$$ I'm not saying it is the best way but one within tha capabilities on many homeowners. Naturally the foundation should be insulatied form the outside
that is the most effective way then because outside is not feasiable after backfilling ,then inside, but at that point no water passage threw has been addressed where it counts outside.
We all wish we had a spare $25k for a masonry heater but we don't, so we make do within our budget for most that means good sill sealing and fiberglass cellar ceilings
I have to agree you are being bombarded with info way beyond basic needs..
Rhome how many homes have you wittnessed and passed energy star compliance with fiberglass insulation walls floors and ceilings/ Me ,I seen over 150 and I can post the compliance certificates
Someone must be doing something right these homes are blatter tested leak tested an all exceed energy star guidelines
does you book tell how this can happen is real in the field situations? It can be done I also wittnessed infirred scans of fiberglass homes done right
Neils, can you provide some basement temps to WxMan? That seems to be the primary question. Wx, sealing the leaks will help and is the proper first step, but insulating the sill area and the wall down to below the frost line is the next step. Without that, the basement may still stay at 45-50 degrees because the heat is just getting wicked out of the space. If it were me and I could get a quote for under $2k to have a pro come in and spray out the basement and crawlspace, that is what I'd do.
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